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#319518 - 01/31/07 10:02 PM Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
I'm curious if there are any practicioners of Yoshokai Aikido out there. Secondly, how effective do you feel Yoshokai is for self defense? Thirdly, since Yoshokai is essentially an offshoot of Yoshinkan to what extent are there technical differences (if any) between the two styles?

Thanks

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#319519 - 02/01/07 01:06 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: tomh777]
Richard_Norris Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 43
The differences are political, not technical, as it turns out. Regardless, Yoshinkan essentially originated as a dojo catering to the interests of the Toyko police department (and many officers still train at the Toyko dojo). Other than that, I'll leave "effective self-defense" to the pundits.

RN

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#319520 - 02/01/07 09:01 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: tomh777]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
My senior student, who is godan in jujutsu and sandan in aikido joined a Yoshinkan dojo when he was nidan and went all the way back to "re-learn" his techniques and got his nidan again in Yoshinkan. The differences he picked up in his training was noticeable in his technique, and with the three styles of aiki blended together, he is quite formidable in aikido practice. As for whether or not Yoshinkan "works", it's a great style and has some of the best players in it that I've trained with over the years.

It's a little more than just "political", it's a different approach to things, and while it's pretty regimented, it's still extremely effective and interesting to train in because it's relatively mechanical in it's process of training more so than the other styles. I've always described it as the "military style" of Aikido.

If your "Yoshokai" is truly aikido, and an offshoot of this style, it should be very good and excellent for self defense. I've never trained specifically in Yoshinkan formally myself, but I have played against people who have, and I found them quite capable. JMHO FWIW...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#319521 - 02/01/07 09:45 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: wristtwister]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
I appreciate the feedback from all of you. I realize that there is no "best" martial art no "best self defense," etc, and that it really is an individual choice. For me, my question and confusion arises out of the fact that on the one hand I am aware that Yoshinkan is taught to the the Tokyo Police and was in many ways Shioda's attempt to return to Ueshiba's pre WWII Aikibudo. Now here is where I am confused...since Yoshokai is a derrivative of Yoshinkan to what extent are the techniques performed in a similar fashion? During my brief stay in Yoshokai (6 months) each technique was performed very robot like (e.g. step 1-pause-step 2-pause-step 3 pause). Does Yoshinkan follow a similar training pattern...or was this type of execution of technique simply done because I was at the beginner level? I have long since found a home in aiki jutsu. However, since my schedule and my sensei's schedules conflict I have seriously considered looking elsewhere for training. In Metro Detroit there are a large degree of Yoshinkan schools and I'm trying to determine if it's worth my while to check one out. On another note. If there are any Yoshokai black belts on this forum I'm curious to hear your response as to the difference in the training at the black belt verse the beginner level. I'm willing to plead ignorance here...but I'm also willing to learn.

Thanks

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#319522 - 02/02/07 03:07 AM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: tomh777]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Shioda's attempt to return to Ueshiba's pre WWII Aikibudo.



Tom, Shioda did not attempt to return to the Pre-WWII aikidbudo, he is a product of the Pre-WWII training methodology.
Quote:

Does Yoshinkan follow a similar training pattern...or was this type of execution of technique simply done because I was at the beginner level?



Yes, it is robotic like. If you have read some of the Yoshinkan books, the step by step was designed to enable one instructor to teach a large number of students. It was viewed as an efficient way to teach the Riot Police and the method was retained to teach the civilian as well. Think of it as drills.

As to whether this is only for beginner or not, well, once you are well verse with the basic technique (kihon waza/kata) you are encouraged to apply them in jiyu-waza (free techniques) and you are not required to do the step by step thingy in jiyu-waza.

FWIW, I am a yudansha in the yoshinkan lineage, not yoshokai, if there is any difference at all.

X wf.
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#319523 - 02/02/07 01:27 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: wristtwister]
Richard_Norris Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

It's a little more than just "political" ...




My comment was directed at the matter of Yoshokai versus Yoshinkan; the former is the North-American organization of Takashi Kushida, who left the Yoshinkan organization for essentially politcal matters. While I was only in the area for a few years after that, the underlying pedagogy and techniques were not at issue. He was well established in the Japanese organization (hachidan, to say nothing of the whole moving your family to Detroit thing) at the time.

I would also agree with one of the previous posters regarding the pedagogy - though I would perhaps say 'systematic' versus 'robotic', eh? One can learn French by moving to Paris or be taking some classes, to each their own.

RN

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#319524 - 02/02/07 05:57 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: xuzen_628]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Thanks for the insight. The info is helpful. I just finished looking at some jiyu waza video's on youtube. Clearly, yoshinkan in the context of Jiyu Waza isn't a "step by step thingy."

Thanks

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#319525 - 02/03/07 09:37 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: Richard_Norris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I meant the methodology of instruction, not the pedigree of the instruction. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Yoshinkan is definitely taught with more regimented methods than what I've been around, and I certainly have no notions of disputing Shioda Sensei's ability. I have no knowledge of the sensei you spoke of, so I have no opinion in that regard... but my comments about "more than political" were directed at the teaching methods. Sorry if I was misunderstood.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#319526 - 02/04/07 08:31 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: wristtwister]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Takashi Kushida was the uchideshi for Gozo Shioda for 10 years. In 1991 he broke away from the Yoshinkan to form Yoshokai Aikido. The world headquarters for Yoshokai is at the Genyokan in Ann Arbor Michigan. I've included the link to the headquarters in case you're interested in finding out more of a sister style to yoshinkai.

aikidoyoshokai.org

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#319527 - 02/04/07 10:51 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: tomh777]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The techniques and much of the pinning technique matches ours exactly. The clips showed a couple we haven't used in a long time (stepover pin), but it's all familiar and good stuff.

I especially appreciated the picture that came up with the uke flying... THAT's Aikido... All this other stuff is just "messin' around"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#319528 - 09/08/07 09:15 AM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: wristtwister]
uchi_deshi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 18
it dont sound like any of you know where yoshokai came from... yes its from yoshinkai.. the guy who founded yoshokai got kicked out of the yoshinkai groups when he wanted to control all the aikido in the united states and wanted to keep most of the money... thats about how it came about... i know of this because my aikido teacher that was his teacher at one time...that founder is from this state

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#319529 - 09/08/07 03:19 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: uchi_deshi]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Are you saying that you're teacher taught Kushida?

Also, when people say 'political', it's an attempt to keep the specific politics out of the disscussion.


--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#319530 - 09/08/07 07:40 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: Ames]
uchi_deshi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 18
yes he was.. i know alot of storys about him from my teacher...sorry but thats how yoshokai came about even if its polittics or not...he was for the money and control and yoshinkai was not...so they kicked him out and stripped him of his rank...if people want to know the truth of how it came about thats all i did...its what i was told by me teacher .... i can tell you the story about things that happened to him when he first came to mich... his main school is in dearborn if i remember right...

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#319531 - 09/09/07 01:42 AM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: uchi_deshi]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Quote:

... his main school is in dearborn if i remember right...




Nope. His "main school" is the Genyokan in Ann Arbor. Here's the website again.

www.aikidoyoshokai.org

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#319532 - 09/09/07 02:45 AM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: uchi_deshi]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I'm not a student of Kushida. I don't know much about what happened between him and Yoshinkan. Frankly, I don't care. Politics are killing Aikido and turning it into a dead pattern dance recital.

Tom, to answer your question, both organization's teach similar material. The main differance is that Yoshokai teaches more weapons.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#319533 - 09/09/07 03:19 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: Ames]
uchi_deshi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 18
i hate to tell you this but martial arts is and always has been politics just look through the history and storys....

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#319534 - 09/10/07 01:57 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: uchi_deshi]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Sure it is. But the topic of this thread is not. It's about effectiveness of a certain style of Aikido for self defense. The rest of it just derails the thread and turns it into a political flame fest which doesn't help anyone and continues on into oblivion. "Yes you did! No I didn't! YES YOU DID! NO I DIDN'T! ... "

You get the picture.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#319535 - 09/11/07 07:30 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: uchi_deshi]
mokurai Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 2
I believe Kushida-sensei was instrumental in bringing Yoshinkan Aikido to the U.S.A. He was Shioda sensei's top uke and live-in apprentice for 20 years or so. He was invited for a visit in Michigan circa 1973. He was still part of the Yoshinkan organization then. Circa 1990, he started hiw own organization called Yoshokai because he did not want to change his teaching standards to comply with the new IYAF standards (Int'l Yoshinkai Aikido Federation). I believe that the IYAF was trying to make Aikido more accessible to a wider audience and therefore, I believe IYAF reduced the requirements for rank. Kushida reportedly did not want to change his standards. In my opinion, Kushida-sensei's Aikido represents a lineage and spirit of Aikido which is highly refined and evolved. Congratulations to Kushida-sensei for his independence and pursuit living in U.S.A. while bringing his Aikido to many students across the U.S. Please export more Yoshokai to California...

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#319536 - 09/17/07 11:47 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: mokurai]
uchi_deshi Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 18
from what i was told they sent him here to michigan not cuz he was invited.. he was kicked off yoshinkai do to he wanted to keep most of the money for him self they didnt like that and he wanted to control all the aikido in this country and they didnt like that...after that he started his own...
i respect the guy...i know alot of stories about him...all are positive nothing neg. about him from my sensei...
just like i know about what happen to him when he first stepped of the plane in the mens bathroom... and how he did his blk belt testing...

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#319537 - 09/18/07 11:14 AM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: uchi_deshi]
mokurai Offline
Stranger

Registered: 09/11/07
Posts: 2
Here's an excerpt from the Yoshokai website:

In 1973, a request for an instructor was sent from Mr. Edward Moore of the Detroit Budokan and from Takeshi Kimeda-sensei, who currently teaches in Toronto, Canada. Kushida-sensei left his position as chief instructor of Yoshinkai and came to North America in response to the request.

I've heard of Kimeda-sensei and understand he teaches in Canada not far actually from Ann Arbor, Michigan where Kushida-sensei teaches. I don't know who Edward Moore is and can find no references to him anywhere else. Do you or your teacher know who Edward Moore is and what role he played in bringing Kushida-sensei to the U.S.A?

As you know,Kimeda-sensei operates in Canada whereas Kushida-sensei operates in the U.S. Here's a quote from Kimeda-sensei's Yoshinaki website:

Kimeda Sensei has developed many frontiers for Aikido outside Japan. He was instrumental in bringing Kushida Sensei and Karasawa Sensei to North America, also in inspiring many other instructors to teach outside Japan.

In my opinion, the political issues culminated in the early nineties - many years after Kushida came to Michigan on behalf of Yoshinkai. Maybe after living in the U.S. for nearly 20 years as a Yoshinkai instructor and then evaluating the IYAF policies, he decided to be independent. East meets West. Granted there may have been a falling out of sorts. I'd hope that as mature adults and Aikido practitioners, they would go their own ways and wish each other well in their new pursuits. Yoshinkai had just started the IYAF and Kushida had just started AYANA.

If you have insights into Edward Moore, it would be greatly appreciated.

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#319538 - 09/19/07 06:32 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: mokurai]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
I recall reading in one of the newsletters put out by Kimeda Sensei's dojo, that Kimeda Sensei refers to Kushida as (this is slightly paraphrased) "The greatest Grandmaster [he's] ever seen."

Kushida split with the Yoshinkan many years after arriving in North America.

--Chris
_________________________
"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#319539 - 09/19/07 11:06 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: Ames]
tomh777 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 114
Loc: Metro Detroit
Quote:

I recall reading in one of the newsletters put out by Kimeda Sensei's dojo, that Kimeda Sensei refers to Kushida as (this is slightly paraphrased) "The greatest Grandmaster [he's] ever seen."

--Chris




Agreed. While in many ways Yoshokai was a "bad fit for me" and "didn't float my boat" etc, I've had the privilege of watching Kushida and his son perform. They are both phenomenal martial artists. Additionally, given how Yoshokai has spread and given the uniformity of how Yoshokai's yudansha perform their techniques as well as the uniform teaching style I can only assume that he is a very gifted administrator as well. If it is true that Kushida split because he was in it for the money and control (and I highly doubt that rumor) then all I can say is Kushida put the money and control to good use...FWIW, given how much I hated my time in Yoshokai it's odd that I'm praising Kushida so much.

Peace

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#430742 - 10/29/10 03:16 PM Re: Yoshokai Aikido and Self Defense [Re: tomh777]
jimaido Offline
Stranger

Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 1
I know this is an old thread still:

If you search Pranin's Aikido Journal and read interviews with Tohei & Inoue, you will know Kushida started with Inoue, the senior most student of Shioda. And Kushida was Gozo's uchi deshi for the longest time. So if "uchi_deshi"'s teacher taught Kushida, he must be Gozo Shioda himself. Not bad for a guy who is dead for 16 years!

I think Kushida broke off after they installed Gozo's son, who was much junior to Inoue & Kushida as Kancho (same thing happened with with Aikikai and Koichi Tohei).

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