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#318279 - 02/05/07 05:58 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>That said.. you have just posted it yourself! I quote: at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down - which:
a. Corresponds with the manual (and consecutive reprints)
b. Confirms my points<<<

If your points are that 1.The verbiage is inexact, 2.could have been better, and 3. Should have been improved, well then we agree. In fact those points are not limited to sine wave. We recently had an exchange along those lines vis a vis offensive and defensive Hooking Kick. If your point is that the methodology changed, then we disagree because you are in error. What I stated was what Gneral Choi said did not exactly convey what he was doing at the time. Later, the description changed to conform to the terminology.

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#318280 - 02/05/07 06:54 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Mr Weis,


With all due respect, from the exaggerated examples of movement that I have seen, I cannot say this sine-wave is from a boxing paradigm. In fact, the mention of this begs a question and a comment. If boxing does contain this motion, why not just practice boxing in lieu of the aforementioned sine-wave and go from that point if application is in mind any way?

The “seating” motion in boxing, to my mind, isn’t a product of what has been shown. That seating motion is a product of the rear leg kicking off to move the boxer’s body weight into the punch and necessitating his hip to move and whip the arm into the punch. But it isn’t this up and down sine-wave motion which seems to be an answer to a question not needing to be asked. You want to apply punches like a boxer, boxing is the answer, not doing this movement.

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#318281 - 02/05/07 07:02 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
very well put.

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#318282 - 02/05/07 09:46 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

If your points are that 1.The verbiage is inexact, 2.could have been better, and 3. Should have been improved, well then we agree.In fact those points are not limited to sine wave. We recently had an exchange along those lines vis a vis offensive and defensive Hooking Kick.



Well no.. my point was that the way its shown in the manual, was the same as the way Gen Choi taught it. I could accept a 'lost in translation' point, but as it was shown one way, by the arts founder, which concurred with how he wrote and photographed it.. I have to conclude that is the way he wanted it and nothing was "lost in translation" but was changed!

Quote:

If your point is that the methodology changed, then we disagree because you are in error.



Not in error according to what you saw General choi say & do, as well as what he wrote!!

Quote:

What I stated was what Gneral Choi said did not exactly convey what he was doing at the time. Later, the description changed to conform to the terminology.



See above on point 1. On point 2.. that has already been discussed and like I said previously, I think its best to respectfully agree to disagree and leave others to make up their own minds.

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318283 - 02/05/07 11:22 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: butterfly]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

Mr Weis,


With all due respect, from the exaggerated examples of movement that I have seen, I cannot say this sine-wave is from a boxing paradigm. In fact, the mention of this begs a question and a comment. If boxing does contain this motion, why not just practice boxing in lieu of the aforementioned sine-wave and go from that point if application is in mind any way?

The “seating” motion in boxing, to my mind, isn’t a product of what has been shown. That seating motion is a product of the rear leg kicking off to move the boxer’s body weight into the punch and necessitating his hip to move and whip the arm into the punch. But it isn’t this up and down sine-wave motion which seems to be an answer to a question not needing to be asked. You want to apply punches like a boxer, boxing is the answer, not doing this movement.


<<<

Why not just practice boxing? Good thought but flawed analogy. Boxing is a sporting contest with rules and most importantly gloves. The object of boxing is to score points. So, while sine wave is designed to teach body mechanics for power, it ignores other considerations if taken in isolation such as the need for defensive posture and the like geared toward boxing. Further, Boxing due to it's rules has a much more limited number of techniques than TKD. With regard to exageration, I can say this. 1. Unfortuneately if General Choi said something was good, often certain students felt is some was good, more was better and exagerated what he said, so ther e may in fact be bad examples of over exagerated sine wave. 2. While at RMCAT which is Peyton Quinn's Adrenal stress training center with fully padded assailants the teaching paradigm was to learn exagerated motions since adrenal stress makes motions smaller and if you start with small motions under adrenal stress they become too small and ineffective. Using larger motions for practice allows you to retain good body mechanics and power under adrenal stress. While they are teaching this I am thinking PATTERNS.

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#318284 - 02/05/07 11:39 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Well no.. my point was that the way its shown in the manual, was the same as the way Gen Choi taught it. <<<

For those of us who were with General Choi this statement is just flat out wrong. It IS NOT the way it was taught. Verbiage yea at one point however the physical demonstration differed from the verbiage. The verbiage was later conformed to the physical demonstration.

>>>I could accept a 'lost in translation' point, but as it was shown one way, by the arts founder, which concurred with how he wrote and photographed it..<<<


Again your statement is wrong. In person demonstrations did not show it this way.

>>> I have to conclude that is the way he wanted it and nothing was "lost in translation" but was changed!<<

Your erroneous conclusion is understandable, Having studied under some of General Choi's most knowledgeable students for 18 years and studied the book thoroughly I attended my first course with him in 1990. During that course I took extensive notes and had about 150 things I needed to fix. I could see how things were miscommunicated passing from person to person and misunderstood from reading the book. I often had an initial reaction when he explained something which was different than what I had been taught, and that reaction was "THAT's WRONG" but then I realized the author cannot be wrong when it comes to explaining his own work. By the time I took the second course I only had about 100 things I needed to fix. Some were things I really did not understand at earlier courses. Each subsequent course I found a few less things to fix. I also asked first time atttendees if they understood certain concepts General Choi was trying to convey, some of which I knew I did not understand the first or second time I was at a course with him. Often, they said they did not understand the concept.

It seems you find yourself in a similar predicament. You can continue to argue your point based upon your intepretation of the written work, however it does little to rebut firsthand experience with the author.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If your point is that the methodology changed, then we disagree because you are in error.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not in error according to what you saw General choi say & do, as well as what he wrote!!


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I stated was what Gneral Choi said did not exactly convey what he was doing at the time. Later, the description changed to conform to the terminology.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


See above on point 1. On point 2.. that has already been discussed and like I said previously, I think its best to respectfully agree to disagree and leave others to make up their own minds.

Regards,

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#318285 - 02/06/07 12:13 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

For those of us who were with General Choi this statement is just flat out wrong. It IS NOT the way it was taught. Verbiage yea at one point however the physical demonstration differed from the verbiage. The verbiage was later conformed to the physical demonstration.



I still dont understand why he couldnt demonstrate a slight drop.. its not exactly complicated and the need for 'words' isnt there.. ie. I see, so I do!

Quote:

Again your statement is wrong. In person demonstrations did not show it this way.



!!! But you said he did!!!

Quote:

Your erroneous conclusion is understandable



I conclude NOT that its been changed (nor that you have experienced this first hand), my arguments are based really around the reason for change (Some feel one way, others feel another) and the benefits of the change 9again some feel its improved it, others feel it hasnt).


Quote:

Having studied under some of General Choi's most knowledgeable students for 18 years and studied the book thoroughly



So have others that agree on my POV! And the book, as I keep saying says different, so it makes that a mute point!

Quote:

It seems you find yourself in a similar predicament.



No really. Its not that I dont understand it, or havnt seen it, or cant accept he changed it (for whatever reasons), I simply disagree on the reason for the change and the validity of it!

Quote:

You can continue to argue your point based upon your intepretation of the written work



Written work, discussions with others with similar experiences with the General, general tests of the theory/practical and personal views and experience. And of course the books intereptation of it all!

Quote:

but then I realized the author cannot be wrong when it comes to explaining his own work...
.. however it does little to rebut firsthand experience with the author.



In theory, no he cannot be wrong (what he explains can be wrong however and then it comes dowen to whether they admit it or not and state the reason for a change that is the real reason!

Like I said, we are going round in circles I think!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318286 - 02/06/07 01:41 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

Why not just practice boxing? Good thought but flawed analogy. Boxing is a sporting contest with rules and most importantly gloves. The object of boxing is to score points. So, while sine wave is designed to teach body mechanics for power, it ignores other considerations if taken in isolation such as the need for defensive posture and the like geared toward boxing. Further, Boxing due to it's rules has a much more limited number of techniques than TKD.




Mr. Weiss,

I think you are misconstrewing something here. Basically, that boxing may be rule laden but so is the application of any resistive type punching you might wish to try in your curriculum or in any particular tournament.

Here, we are talking about mechanics and their viable use in a delivery system. Whether in boxing or in self defense, the punch and the mechanics of the punch do not change. There is no difference in a sporting environment to "the real" thing in application of technique. Only the intent is changed and perhaps allowable targets. In this instance, I hold by my original statements that the sine-wave motion that you describe are not necessary for good punching and thus must be considered as a characteristic of one particular style that does not necessarily boost technical ability in striking.

-B

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#318287 - 02/06/07 07:49 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Boxing is a sporting contest with rules and most importantly gloves. The object of boxing is to score points.



check your history, TKD was specifically designed for sport using Karate as it's root. Boxing evolved from bare knuckle fighting. The concept of sinking into strikes for more knockout power is an evolved one.

'sine wave' seems nothing more than exagurated sinking. only the exagurration itself is new. most Arts have the concept...but it's more of an integrated concept than an isolated practice. The reason ITF claims the old concept under a new name and economy is most likely a political one - to distinguish itself from WTF and to counter criticism of TKD's weak upper body game.

combine that with giving teaching licence to people with less than 4 years of training, kids teaching adults, etc, and you soon get a wide-spread misunderstanding of the concept of sinking...replaced instead with people emulating and teaching the signature movement with increasingly less regard for it's founding principle. Then you see bobbing up and down punching in horse stance (btw, only one other practice does this...it's called Tae Bo..they do it for fitness).

Few will come right out and say that 'sine wave' is a training tool to teach sinking....because they know other Arts have and integrate this same concept but without the exaguration or pursuit of signature. Instead, 'sine wave' gets mystified with an air of 'for me to know and you to find out'. an air thats always been rampant in MA. some use it to hide behind.

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#318288 - 02/06/07 08:12 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>
I still dont understand why he couldnt demonstrate a slight drop.. its not exactly complicated and the need for 'words' isnt there.. ie. I see, so I do! <<<<

Exactly my point which I guess I have been unsuccessful at making. He DID demonstrate the slight drop.

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