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#318269 - 02/04/07 08:19 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

ok. thats fair. which concept is it then? sinking into strikes? is going up before dropping into a strike, a training method for beginners to better get the feel of the sinking concept?



For me it was (and always has been IMO) simply raising slighly (ie. naturally - think walking where you must go higher as your legs come togethor) then dropping into a technique.

I leave Earl and ITFUnity to explain their take on it!

Stuart
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"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318270 - 02/04/07 08:23 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
ITFunity & Earl ,

hey guys, we have done this discussion lots of times now and all have strong points to put across, and we always come to this stale mate, so shall we agree to disagree and let others make up their own minds based on the posts we have all done?

You know I hold you both in the highest regards and you know this is a pet peeve of mine, which results in these discussions and everytime we do it.. my opinions never change.. on the subject at hand or of you guys!

So I bid farewell to this discussion, and will call it a stalemate as I said!

Good arguments guys! Readers.. make your own minds up!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318271 - 02/04/07 11:02 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes I agree!

Mr. Morris, thats right. Maybe someone can direct you to aprevious thread, where we really got into it, rahter deeply. In one of them, I used a pistol shooting/gun fight analysis for comparision.


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#318272 - 02/04/07 11:33 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I was curious if anything has been learned about it since then.

At best, it's an exagurated movement as a training tool to teach students the concept of dropping weight into a strike.

at worst, it's utterly rediculous.

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#318273 - 02/05/07 05:45 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
ITFunity, StuartA, Mr.Earlweis,

Perhaps you guys can show us some examples. It seems the argument this time was between those who actually teach, use and say the sign wave works.

The rest of us might benefit by some examples that you could find on youtube, google, or any media site. Who knows it might even help yourselves see what the other is trying to say. Because it sounds like 2 different ways of the sign wave is being discussed. For those of us who do not understand one way, adding a second variation is frustrating.

I myself have looked for examples, but I don't kjnow what to look for. The best example of ITF style forms I have seen is in a video game. Actually the video game is one of my favorites it's called Tekken 3. Theres a taekwondo character who's moves were copied by an ITF practictioner, durring the games cut scenes he performs a pattern. There is an up and down motion after each stance, block, and strike. It looks very nice, very masterful... for taekwondo patterns anyway.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
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#318274 - 02/05/07 08:35 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

At best, it's an exagurated movement as a training tool to teach students the concept of dropping weight into a strike.




Yes it is something along those lines.

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#318275 - 02/05/07 08:51 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Perhaps you guys can show us some examples. It seems the argument this time was between those who actually teach, use and say the sign wave works.
The rest of us might benefit by some examples that you could find on youtube, google, or any media site.




The only examples I am aware of are those applied in patterns, an aesthetic display to also highlight characteristic beauty of our SD Art form. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
A good example may be found in power test. I do not think that all aspects of the theory of power can always be captured in sparring, as that was never the point.
(This is why I added this, which I repeat here)
When it comes to Sine Wave & how it is applied, I thought I would add this. After doing some more study, I found some direction given by ITF Taekwon-Do Founder, Choi Hong Hi. He is talking about formal fundamental exercises & comparing those methods to actual combat. The example he uses in this instance is punching from the hip. However, the principle or message can be applied to most fundamental exercises:
“The student of Taekwon-Do is expected to meet any attack from any directions; furthermore, the fist does not necessarily have to be delivered always from the hip to the target. TIME may not permit you to do so in an actual situation; therefore it is better to train in the various ways of punching from any position, provided one masters the fundamental methods mentioned above, visualizing a changing situation in relation to target distance, target opportunity, and so on”.

I think this compliments the idea I was trying to relay using my gun shooting analogy.


I think this arguement was more of semantics & terminology wrapped around the evolution or change in the emphasis of certain aspects of SW, by those who have had some experience with it.

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#318276 - 02/05/07 05:20 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
mmmmm..
Quote:

At best, it's an exagurated movement as a training tool to teach students the concept of dropping weight into a strike, at worst, it's utterly ridiculous.




Now we are getting to an interesting side of this debate.
I can understand the concept of the "Drop Step Strike" (I come from a boxing / Wing Chun background). But that only applies to FORWARD motion etc. But the reason why I initially started this new thread was because the thought suddenly hit me that this MAY have been introduced when General Choy Hong Hi got too old to effectively deliver full power via hip twisting and therefore looked at a more ecconomical way of delivering power to a concentrated spatial location* for his age group.

*Concentrated Spatial Location - because the guys at these clubs had exactly the same idea that the power of the punch was to be delivered in a precise area, above the range of the leading foot, rather than driving through a target.

I was also possibly attributing the Sine-Wave-Style with an alteration of starting hand positions. (As this was my direct experience, visiting various clubs that practice the Sine-Wave). For me, I enjoy finding the starting hand positions and similar movements in Chinese Gung Fu / Karate and it has helped me immensely. But I was dissapointed at what I saw as a further obfiscation by changing the starting hand positions etc.

This is intended as an honest post.
Not intended to spark anything but an honest, open-minded discussion.

Take it easy.
GriffyGriff
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

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#318277 - 02/05/07 05:33 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Quote:

“The student of Taekwon-Do is expected to meet any attack from any directions; furthermore, the fist does not necessarily have to be delivered always from the hip to the target. TIME may not permit you to do so in an actual situation; therefore it is better to train in the various ways of punching from any position, provided one masters the fundamental methods mentioned above, visualizing a changing situation in relation to target distance, target opportunity, and so on”




This for me speaks volumes.
I perceive this as saying that once you have developed the fundamentals of energy generation (hip twist)....
Then if time (or your immediate environment) is a constraining factor, you should beable to deliver a punch from any starting position and NOT RELIGIOUSLY DELIVER FROM THE HIP.

It is just an entirely objective statement regarding the approach to defending oneself. It is also qualified by the line
Quote:

provided one masters the fundamental methods mentioned above


i.e. Punching from the hip.

This does not seem to refer why the Sine-Wave was REALLY introduced.

Cheers
GriffyGriff
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

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#318278 - 02/05/07 05:51 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
For sparring examples of sine wave, watch a boxer flex and straighten their knees. That is sine wave.

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