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#318249 - 02/03/07 03:05 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Mr. A!

Here we go again

No we won't. I agree & disagree. Knee spring is & was part of SW, but you are right. It was NEVER as pronounced as it is now. I think Master Weiss says it best, when he says the Founder struggled to find better terms to describe what he wanted. I also concur that the emphasis changed due to politics. I can't prove it, but that is my honest feeling. It came right after the late (G)Master Park, Jung Tae was expelled. The Founder's son alluded to it, in a round-a-bout way as well.

However, I think you will be pleased to know, that the ITF-V just came out with a great 2 page explanation of SW, complete with a diagram. It doesn't look exactly like yours, but it hammers home the same point.
And guess what?
They use the terminology of relax/up/down!
I think they must have been listening to me!


I have to scan it & e-mail it to you. I would be very interested in your comments!

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#318250 - 02/03/07 07:52 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Here we go again, No we won't.



LOL.. we do have some great chats sont we!

Anyway, here is proof that knee spring IS NOT and NEVER was sine-wave. Though this refers the up/down version as published in his books - **In the "Training Secret" where number 8 states: "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the knee spring properly." ** - Therefore I say again, Knee-spring cannot of been sine-wave if it is used to help sine-wave!! As the up to date equivilant would read "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the Sine wave properly."


Quote:

Knee spring is & was part of SW, but you are right.



I agree, but still feel there is a big difference to when knee-spring was taught and how the knee works in sine wave!

The next bit of your post (which i edited out for length) I agree mostly with!!


-----------
Quote:

However, I think you will be pleased to know, that the ITF-V just came out with a great 2 page explanation of SW, complete with a diagram. It doesn't look exactly like yours, but it hammers home the same point.
And guess what?
They use the terminology of relax/up/down!
I think they must have been listening to me!




Actually, that wouldnt surprise me. A discussion on another forum actually found its way (training wise) into the last ITF(C) IIC in Ireland!! they do say the walls have ears!!!

Quote:

I have to scan it & e-mail it to you. I would be very interested in your comments!






Please do, id be interested to read it as they are supposidly doing scientific study on it!

Thanks,

Stuart

Ps. **The Sine wave motion is also mentioned in the Theory of power under MASS where it states: "...by slightly raising the hip at the beginning of the motion and lowering the hip at the moment of impact to drop the body weight into the motion..." - note it doesnt mention the drop first!!

PPs. This (**) came from the ITF NZ website (I just cut and pasted it, so thanks to paul McPhail for it)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318251 - 02/03/07 09:11 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
switchfoot Offline
Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 32
Loc: FL
What is the sine-wave? And who is the general from the first post

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#318252 - 02/04/07 01:07 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Who can say when the sign wave started being used in TKD. I can assure you that it is nothing new nor something special. It is told in a tale of old legends that Master Choi was practicing one day his hyungs, when a pretty girl cameDiligenty the master tryied not to break his concentration, but alass the young girl was so beautiful, that the founder was so entranced with her beauty that he waved hello to her, ths then became the sign wave. And one of the components of his threory of power. Years later hundreds of thousand of students perform this movement during forms training, all bouncing hello to each other. It is always nice to greet people prior to combat.

Um ofcourse theres always those other versions of why Chan Hong stylist use the sign wave, but mines is much more believable.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#318253 - 02/04/07 06:57 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Um ofcourse theres always those other versions of why Chan Hong stylist use the sign wave, but mines is much more believable.




LOL - that reminded me of this (written years ago by a BB I know): http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_SineWaveStories.html
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318254 - 02/04/07 03:29 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Here we go again, No we won't.



LOL.. we do have some great chats sont we!
Anyway, here is proof that knee spring IS NOT and NEVER was sine-wave. Though this refers the up/down version as published in his books - **In the "Training Secret" where number 8 states: "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the knee spring properly." ** - Therefore I say again, Knee-spring cannot of been sine-wave if it is used to help sine-wave!! As the up to date equivilant would read "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the Sine wave properly."
Quote:

Knee spring is & was part of SW, but you are right.


I agree, but still feel there is a big difference to when knee-spring was taught and how the knee works in sine wave!Ps. **The Sine wave motion is also mentioned in the Theory of power under MASS where it states: "...by slightly raising the hip at the beginning of the motion and lowering the hip at the moment of impact to drop the body weight into the motion..." - note it doesnt mention the drop first!!




Okay, I can't go there again, as you are too strong of an opponent Besides, you may be right

In any event, I think we are both right! Its funny, as I was going to post those same points to bolster my arguement. So let me see if I can refine it:
SW in Taekwon-Do is used to create power, by adding mass & smoothness to the technique. SW has evolved, much as other aspects of ITF Chang Hon Taekwon-Do has over the years. The cause for the development is a topic for another thread. I also concur, there were some of those political motives as well.
Now, just as SW has evolved, so has the terminology. In the early days, there was no SW or knee spring etc. There was just Karate style movment, as evidenced by his 1965 text. My research led me to comments by an early Chief Instructor of the ITF, who said, the up down movement was there, as early as 1967(?).
Now as you & I rightly point out, it does appear in the 1972 text, as knee spring, not SW. However, the basis for knee spring, is to do the same as SW. It is evidenced as early as 1972 in both the stepping & spot exercise sections. Subsequent editions add it to the ToP.

(Remember the Theory of Power, 1st had 4 factors:
1965
1-reaction force
2-concentration
3-balance (equilibrium)
4-breath control
1972
5-speed
subsequent
6-mass
(Current)
We have the term Sine Wave 1st used in print in the 1983 edition of the 15 volume encylopedia, printed in 1985. There of course can be more than 1 reason for it appearing then. The 15 volumes allowed for more in depth detail, the Art was evolving &/or the terminology became more refined, as was often the case, as this was a Korean trying to use English to convey his thoughts & principles. The 1st person to help him with this was Justin C. S. Kim, followed by Robert Walson, Choi Jung Hwa & others, including NKs.

There is no question that he constantly updated terminology to better describe what he wanted. To me, knee spring & SW are 1 in the same, as they share the common goal. How knee spring or SW is implemented & how it was emphasized in print & in action has certainly changed. But lets not split hairs

The point you make is right. When 1st taught, it was knee spring. When it was then taught as SW, the emphasis was on up down movement. Circa 1990-91, when (G)Master Park, Jung Tae left the ITF, (he was the Secty Genl & Chairman of the Instruction Committee) it was a HUGE loss. Maybe as an attempt to minimize that BIG loss, as he was the 1 who taught the IICs, the Founder now began to emphasize the down up down movement.

However, when you watch him perform, he always did down up down. It was simply a result after relaxing after execution of the movement, which is required. So it is probably best JMHO to describe it as relax up down. I agree that the current method utilized is very much over the top. I am glad to see that slowly this is apparently being rectified.

There is no SW without knee spring & knee spring results in a SW like movement. However, as you correctly point out, there is no written documentation of the down up down movement of today, other than what I point out. This can not simply be written off as an oversight, as there was 2 subsequent editions of the 15 volumes & at least 4, maybe 5 editions of the condensed version. I would use this glaring fact, that the correct movement should be a slight down then up & down or better yet, relax up down

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#318255 - 02/04/07 04:21 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: switchfoot]
switchfoot Offline
Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 32
Loc: FL
Quote:

What is the sine-wave? And who is the general from the first post




so what is the sine wave?

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#318256 - 02/04/07 06:15 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Besides, you may be right



LOL.. and I wont go there again except to answer a few points:

Quote:

SW has evolved



Not evolved (as that would indicate it was seen a better way) - it was changed...

Quote:

there were some of those political motives as well.



Some, possibly the only AFAIK!

Quote:

My research led me to comments by an early Chief Instructor of the ITF, who said, the up down movement was there, as early as 1967(?).



That I dont really argue with, though I was asured by another ITF Master that in the UK it was first mention in 1983.. though as I said previously, the dropping into techniques is evident in some of the pioneers footage!

Quote:

However, the basis for knee spring, is to do the same as SW.



Sorry, but i disagree. Knee-spring was for stationary techniques, sine-wave was for moving. Further more, new sine wave is for both! Also, i was taught that the head doesnt move for knee spring, as the knee bends, but the ankle raises to compensate = same height! I contest dear sir.. the two are different things!


Quote:

To me, knee spring & SW are 1 in the same



And to me they are totally different

Quote:

as they share the common goal.



If that is to create more power.. then i agree (in relation to the original sine wave.. not the new one)

Quote:

How knee spring or SW is implemented & how it was emphasized in print & in action has certainly changed. But lets not split hairs



No, lets not and lets not make fairy stories about it evolving either!! (no offence intended there)

Quote:

The point you make is right.



I know.. thats why I argue against it so prevailently!

Quote:

When 1st taught, it was knee spring.



And it still is (even with sine-wave!)

Quote:

When it was then taught as SW, the emphasis was on up down movement. Circa 1990-91, when (G)Master Park, Jung Tae left the ITF, (he was the Secty Genl & Chairman of the Instruction Committee) it was a HUGE loss.



Yup

Quote:

Maybe as an attempt to minimize that BIG loss, as he was the 1 who taught the IICs, the Founder now began to emphasize the down up down movement.



Perhaps!

Quote:

However, when you watch him perform, he always did down up down. It was simply a result after relaxing after execution of the movement, which is required.



As we discussed before, i can live with relaxed, just not down.. after a tension of the muscles on an impact.. they will of course relax.. hence this is natural!

Quote:

So it is probably best JMHO to describe it as relax up down.



Again, i disagree, as it is normal to relax are muscle tension associated with a technique.. by adding "relax" in.. even though this may be reasonibly correct it makes it out like theres an additional movement, when there is not!

Quote:

I agree that the current method utilized is very much over the top. I am glad to see that slowly this is apparently being rectified.



As am I!

Quote:

There is no SW without knee spring & knee spring results in a SW like movement.



The same applies to walking, running, football and in fact any movement! I still contest the two were put there as different things, a flex of the knee in a normal movement does not consititue sinewave and even the OTT ones show nothing like the original knee spring!

Quote:

However, as you correctly point out, there is no written documentation of the down up down movement of today, other than what I point out.



Which makes it dodgy at best and me totally right at worst (in the ITfs case LOL)

Quote:

This can not simply be written off as an oversight, as there was 2 subsequent editions of the 15 volumes & at least 4, maybe 5 editions of the condensed version.



Hooray.. somesones finally heard me!

Quote:

I would use this glaring fact, that the correct movement should be a slight down then up & down or better yet, relax up down



And I would say, if your talking to someone who knows about TKD and has been taught correctly, there is no reason to tell them to relax, as they know this already and should be teaching it in all techniques!!!

LOL,

Again, this is much fun!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (02/04/07 06:18 PM)

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#318257 - 02/04/07 06:16 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: switchfoot]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318258 - 02/04/07 06:33 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>>As ITFUnity knows, I am one of the ones that strongly disagrees with this - SW was never called knee spring, not then and not now! When it was introduced (the original up/down version) it was never said to replace knee spring but accompany it - simply SW when moving, knee spring when not!!<<<<


Disagree all you like. However, ITF Unity and I were practicing it when it was knee spring and then spring style in the 1970's so it is easy for us to see the connection.

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