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#318299 - 02/07/07 11:09 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

On a slighlty more serious point, if anyone who didn't train personally with the General is at risk of doing incorrect sine-wave, that leads to the question of how much 'incorrect' ITF TKD must be floating around.




Yes, I would guess that there is a lot of incorrect ITF around. However, the bread & butter of the movement is pretty much standardized, as well as the patterns, as that was the Founder's signature. Therefore, so much effort was put into it. The accomplishment as evidenced by the quality displayed in the WCs is truly amazing, just as Master Weiss says.
Some of the areas lacking are the step sparring, semi-free sparring, HoSinSul, terminology, flying kicks & advanced techniques such as model sparring, foot technique sparring & pre-arranged free sparring. There has been a sort of pick & choose buffet style of following the syllabus. Usually focused on what the Founder emphasized in his seminars. From what I have experienced, many would refer to the text to look up movements of patterns to check or settle debates & little more. I think that the schools that empasized written tests & verbal examination on required knowledge, tended to have a closer or more fuller following of the syllabus. Sadly, many relied on national or local training guides or booklets, rather than going more fully to the syllabus itself.
However, there is a huge difference, from the earlier days to the end, in terms of standardization, due to the untiring effort of the Founder, who cirlced the globe numerous times teaching his Art.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (02/07/07 11:45 AM)

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#318300 - 02/07/07 12:34 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Olympic style TKD is still right here, watching and luaghing at how the ITF can't get a consensus about what exactly they are doing...quoting and interpreting a dead masters literature and dvd's.

Seems to me everything is based off of General Choi, apparently noone eles new or got his art right other than him.

I am sure glad I practice an art were a vast amount of korean master got together and decided to put together. Not much of a wrong or right way of doing things, just a more effective way. Nothing shrouded in mystery, nothing to be interpreted nor can only one major source be found, nor does it depend on the vision and words of one man.

So far I hear argument for the sign wave but not much point for actually doing it, no proof, nor actual application. It wold be like teaching a student to perform it and if they don't understand they must do it anyways because it's what the rest of the flock does and it would be not against TKD but against Chon Hong style or even General Choi to say hey maybe this thing doesn't work and is not really needed.

I still my threads up, when someone posts on them I will respond. but thans for thinking about us trev.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#318301 - 02/07/07 05:37 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>> Not much of a wrong or right way of doing things, just a more effective way. <<<

LAst I heard the Kukkiwon conducted instructor courses and a few short years ago opened it up to Non Koreans. In fact I heard an amusing story where an attendee at the course told the instructor something like "that is not the Kukkiwon standard" to which the instructor replied "Who do you think I am?" apparently it was the person in charge of setting the standard for that particular item.

This is not umlike the ITF situation where people oftne believe they learned the standard but were in error. Reactions to being told they were in error varied from accepting the correction to being in denial that they were wrong - See next post.

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#318302 - 02/07/07 05:45 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
First and foremost I have had people correct my errors innumerable times. Even recently when teaching 4th Dan Patterns I learned of an error I was making. Even General Choi when asked a question about an upper Dan Pattern referred to the book which was unusual since he usually referred to pattern moves by number and exact specificatyions from memeory. Anyway after referring to the book he said "Book even better than General Choi"

Being near Chicago I get many ITF students from all over the world 95% plus techniques are in conformity. Once I corrected a very talented and knowledgeable 2nd dan from the Czech Republic. His response was that I was wrong, because it was different from what his instructor 8th Dan---(who outranked me) a personal student of General Choi taught him. I did not say anything. When I had a chance I copied the relevant pages from the text and handed it to him saying "Book written by 9th Dan, your instructor loses".
He was much more open to information after that.

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#318303 - 02/07/07 08:58 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Olympic style TKD is still right here, watching and luaghing at how the ITF can't get a consensus about what exactly they are doing...quoting and interpreting a dead masters literature and dvd's.



Awe Tek.. Im not ITF but I am Ch'ang Hon!! And its the lierature of the man who founded the Ch'ang Hon system.. the one the WTF used to work there's around!! Without it.. you would be here now say such things!

Quote:

Seems to me everything is based off of General Choi, apparently noone eles new or got his art right other than him.



Pretty much as he considered (one of) the main founders of the art everyone practices. Pretty much the same as Kano for Judo, Funakoshi for Shotokan etc etc. Its discussion around small points, not the whole art, after all, ITF hasnt changed their patterns 3 or 4 times since inception.. which would make a worthy debate wouldnt it! That said, its not good to accept everything without question!

Quote:

I am sure glad I practice an art were a vast amount of korean master got together and decided to put together.



You mean the South Korean Government told them to after General Choi went against it! Like I said, Im glad they all decided in a pattern set now.. it only took about 30 years

Quote:

Not much of a wrong or right way of doing things, just a more effective way.



Really! Hows that then? Sparring with hands down perhaps!

Quote:

Nothing shrouded in mystery, nothing to be interpreted nor can only one major source be found, nor does it depend on the vision and words of one man.



Point me to the applications to the WTF tul then please? All arts need clarification, updating or examination.. there is nothing wrong with that, and if there are no questions or shortfalls.. then either the art has it 100% right or its simply too shallow!

Quote:

So far I hear argument for the sign wave but not much point for actually doing it, no proof, nor actual application.



Nope, the discussion was about a change to it, not the sine-wave itself! And a few other related elements like when the change occured and terminology regarding it!

Quote:

It wold be like teaching a student to perform it and if they don't understand they must do it anyways because it's what the rest of the flock does and it would be not against TKD but against Chon Hong style or even General Choi to say hey maybe this thing doesn't work and is not really needed.



No Im afraid, as that is part of the reason we are discussing the change in it, I for one argue against parts of it!

Nothing against WTF'ers... just thought I'd pipe up LOL

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318304 - 02/07/07 08:59 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Even General Choi when asked a question about an upper Dan Pattern referred to the book which was unusual since he usually referred to pattern moves by number and exact specificatyions from memeory. Anyway after referring to the book he said "Book even better than General Choi"



Oh stop it Earl, you have just given me another point to add to my arguments LOL

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318305 - 02/07/07 09:04 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
The organization means nothing, the WTF or the kukkikwon isn't even on a persons mind. They set the rules for the sport, but not the schools. Sure the techniques are probably standard in all TKD schools which practice for Olympic style competition, but the curriculum is different in each and every school when it comes to forms, self defense, and breaking. If your school is self defense specific then you probably practice techniques from traditional karate a.k.a. Tang Soo Do, judo or hapkido.

Noone argues over politics. The WTF nor the kukkikwon or the TKD masters are looked to as religious figures much like many of the Chang Hon practitioners.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#318306 - 02/07/07 11:27 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

Quote:

Even General Choi when asked a question about an upper Dan Pattern referred to the book which was unusual since he usually referred to pattern moves by number and exact specificatyions from memeory. Anyway after referring to the book he said "Book even better than General Choi"



Oh stop it Earl, you have just given me another point to add to my arguments LOL

Stuart


<<<

OK I'll counter that with an error in the book. A question was sent to be via Willy Van Der Mortel from a student about the level of the Elbow strike as shown in the book for Yul Guk new techniques section. When we got to that point at the 2001 Nefoundland course I asked General Choi about the level of the strike. He responded in a manner which indicated he was surprised I would ask such a question. My response was "So sir, then the book is wrong? " He asked what I was talking about. I marked the spot in the book ahead of time. He confirmed the book was wrong, and told Master Lu to make a note of it so the ITF could issue a technical,correction bulletin as it had done in the past. For whatever reason, to my knowledge, no bulletin was ever issued. so you see, the book is not always right, let alone providing a clear explanation.

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#318307 - 02/08/07 12:32 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
TeK9:

Please don't take this as a knock. However, the reason we can have this arguement is because of the standardization of the ITF around the world. Most non-ITF schools I would imagine have more flexibilty to use their own syllabus. So we are engaging in a very technical aspect of 1 part of the ToP. I wouldn't think the WTF could do that, as it doesn't have the standardization to begin with. Not that either is better or not. It is just that an involved technical discussion of this level would not really be practicle for non-ITF students.

As far as the ToP goes & the 6 factors that make it up, I think it has sound scientific principles & concepts. As such, applying as many factors just makes common sense, that it would help increase power. All the focus on SW, which is just 1 part of 1 of 6 factors of the ToP, is not really that important. It is really more of an esoteric debate.

May I ask how you or your syllabus seeks to maximize power?

To me, when I use the 6 factors, I FEEL the difference. IMHO if you applied them correctly, you would FEEL the difference as well. However, that is theory. How it transfers over in action, of course depends on the nature of the action at hand. Think pistol target range & combat gun fight.

So it is not about what some dead guy thought, it is about science & applying it to help increase power. So maybe the science is wrong, but that is another arguement. I have never had someone I walked through the movements & motions, ever tell me that they did not think it FELT stronger.

Can you please explain how you seek to maximize your power during the execution of techniques?

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#318308 - 02/08/07 12:51 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

The organization means nothing, the WTF or the kukkikwon isn't even on a persons mind.



So are there many schools around that teach Kukki TKD that arnt part of the WTF then?

Quote:

They set the rules for the sport, but not the schools. Sure the techniques are probably standard in all TKD schools which practice for Olympic style competition, but the curriculum is different in each and every school when it comes to forms, self defense, and breaking. If your school is self defense specific then you probably practice techniques from traditional karate a.k.a. Tang Soo Do, judo or hapkido.



So theres no standard grading syllabus to adhere to then?

-- all the above are genuine questions btw!


Quote:

Noone argues over politics.



Well they should do, as the way the history of TKD is referenced by the WTF omits a major point - like the founding of Taekwon-do!! Perhaps you were correct and that no one argues with it as (and I quote] "because it's what the rest of the flock does " - politics play a role in WTF but like those of train, it rarely affects the students, just those at the top!

Quote:

The WTF nor the kukkikwon or the TKD masters are looked to as religious figures much like many of the Chang Hon practitioners.



I dont know about 'religous figures' but I do respect what the ITF accomplished in its lifeime before the Generals death (though I dont agree with everything they did during that time either) and I do respect the arts true pioneers who spent much of their adult lives living elseware to promote the art for little or no return, even laying the foundation for what you now do! Theres a big difference between respect and acknowledgement than religion or cult!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (02/08/07 12:53 AM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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