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#318259 - 02/04/07 06:43 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>> you will note on all the pictures, there is no down movement before the up movement - an extra photo would have showed it if it was indeed that was the original idea. Further more, the locked knee of the back leg is simply a result of solidifying your stance.. it is not thust back like a normal knee spring - hence they are different!

Thirdly, the newer sine-wave was only pushed in the late 90's when the ITF had some political issues and decided to try to force people to join them by doing things differently and claiming theres was the only way, thus true TKD, when in fact for years they had been teaching it a different way. It was a political move!

Finally, some believe that the sine wave allows flow as its based ona Taoist theory(!) of continuity! If correct, the modern version does not relay this as it is not continious!

You guys know that I respect your knowledge, but simply cannot accept the fairy tale that sine-wave (especailly the modern down/up/down version)was always there!

Stuart
<<<<<

Sorry, as posted before your version is the fairy tale as I have experienced the reality. While explanations channged, the reality and methodology changed little as it relates to the Down up down issue. I have related a story and among others you know Master Steiner was there as well, at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down but it looked like down up down. After the course I flew Master Nunez to my school to teach and demo it since I was still making the adjustment and he was better at it then I . We had this very conversationas I watched him go down first. He is an intuitive learnwer and can see and replicate motion without over analyzing. At first he said there was no initial down, but then when he took some time and analyzed what he did he agreed that there was in fact a slight downward motion. About the same time GM Sereff traveled extensively with gen Choi and relates a story fo Gen Choi being in a subway station in Japan and watching him move. He tells how something clicked helping him better understand whta Gen Choi was doing which was the initial relaxing down. After that the explanations became better relating theinitial down. Perhaps master Steiner can share his thoughts.

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#318260 - 02/04/07 07:17 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

1- Sorry, but i disagree. Knee-spring was for stationary techniques, sine-wave was for moving. Further more, new sine wave is for both!

2- Also, i was taught that the head doesnt move for knee spring, as the knee bends, but the ankle raises to compensate = same height! I contest dear sir.. the two are different things!
Stuart




This may be where we go wrong. SW was always for stepping & in spot, stationary. I think this gets back to the semantics or terminology debate. When we learned SW it was most definately for both, still is. This was directly & drastically different from the way I 1st learned my patterns, called Hyungs, forms then, by an ITF Master, who was really Korean Karate (MooDoKwan). He distinctly told me to keep level, like the ceiling was touching the top of your head. That I always thought was Karate linea (horizontal) movement. We were taught to generate power by the hip twist. So we were both taught wrong or different from the ITF standard. However, make no mistake about it, SW, knee spring call it what you want. It always applied to stepping & stationary. As a matter of fact, when we were taught correctly, it was introduced to us with stationary movements. It was easier to comprehand the concept with out the confusion of the steping. I still tach it that way, as it makes most sense & flows very easy, making the concept easier to grasp. IMHO

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#318261 - 02/04/07 07:23 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
theres lots of TKD sparring clips available now on youtube....could someone show me one sparring clip where one or both are using sine wave power generation. thanks.

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#318262 - 02/04/07 07:25 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

There is no SW without knee spring & knee spring results in a SW like movement.



The same applies to walking, running, football and in fact any movement! Stuart




NOT REALLY!

Not the horizontal movement I 1st learned how to do the ChonJi forms with. Don't some MAs still use that type of movement?
Certainly ITF Chang Hon doesn't. Since the ITF was formed in 1966 & I have found early indication (possible 1967) that they used knee spring, a case can be made that they never did the horizontal wave that some other Arts do.

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#318263 - 02/04/07 07:29 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes of course it is there. You have to look for it. Remember that it is just 1 part of 1 factor of 6, that comprises the theory of power. Theories teach us concepts that can make things better. In this case, power. However, thisdoes not mean that it can often be fully transfered to every situation at hand.

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#318264 - 02/04/07 08:02 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Disagree all you like. However, ITF Unity and I were practicing it when it was knee spring and then spring style in the 1970's so it is easy for us to see the connection.



I have used facts to add weight to my (personal) disagreement. AS I SAID IN THE EARLIER POST:

**In the "Training Secret" where number 8 states: "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the knee spring properly." ** - Therefore I say again, Knee-spring cannot of been sine-wave if it is used to help sine-wave!! As the up to date equivilant would read "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the Sine wave properly."

You may see a connection, thats fair enough.. but that doesnt make it so!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318265 - 02/04/07 08:08 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Sorry, as posted before your version is the fairy tale as I have experienced the reality. While explanations channged, the reality and methodology changed little as it relates to the Down up down issue. I have related a story and among others you know Master Steiner was there as well, at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down but it looked like down up down. After the course I flew Master Nunez to my school to teach and demo it since I was still making the adjustment and he was better at it then I . We had this very conversationas I watched him go down first. He is an intuitive learnwer and can see and replicate motion without over analyzing. At first he said there was no initial down, but then when he took some time and analyzed what he did he agreed that there was in fact a slight downward motion. About the same time GM Sereff traveled extensively with gen Choi and relates a story fo Gen Choi being in a subway station in Japan and watching him move. He tells how something clicked helping him better understand whta Gen Choi was doing which was the initial relaxing down. After that the explanations became better relating theinitial down. Perhaps master Steiner can share his thoughts.




First of all, my apologies for the "fairytale" bit - wrong choice of words - I didnt mean any offence!

That said.. you have just posted it yourself! I quote: at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down - which:
a. Corresponds with the manual (and consecutive reprints)
b. Confirms my points

The rest is subjective and could, in all honesty be someones take on it, my opinion on the newer type sine-wave is a personal one but is supported by facts (as my opinions on the original version is based on facts, not opinions)! Again, this is no meant to offend as I agree with both of you about relaxing before it.. just that its part of the preceeding movement!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318266 - 02/04/07 08:13 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

This may be where we go wrong. SW was always for stepping & in spot, stationary.



If stationary.. to create the curve in sine-wave, the studnet would have to move/lean his whole body backwards first, would he not.. otherwise its a simply up and drop motion (disimilar to sine wave which works on a curve)

Quote:

He distinctly told me to keep level, like the ceiling was touching the top of your head.



Ive always learn to simply rise and drop into techniques when moving1

Quote:

We were taught to generate power by the hip twist. So we were both taught wrong or different from the ITF standard.



I was taught that way to, as well as the above and use of knee spring.. this was the ITF standard at the time.

Quote:

It always applied to stepping & stationary.



Perhaps.. but see my comment above! If you feel that rising up and dropping (think punch in sitting stance) is sine-wave, then we are in agreement (Though I feel they are not the same as mentioned).

I still contest however, that the newer way is a)not natural and b) too slow!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318267 - 02/04/07 08:14 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
ok. thats fair. which concept is it then? sinking into strikes? is going up before dropping into a strike, a training method for beginners to better get the feel of the sinking concept?

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#318268 - 02/04/07 08:16 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

NOT REALLY!



Yes really, as your saying bending the knee constitues knee-spring and all the things Ive mentions bends the knee also - as they have to .. to be natural!!

Quote:

Not the horizontal movement I 1st learned how to do the ChonJi forms with. Don't some MAs still use that type of movement?



I agree.. bit we are not talking about horizontal wave.. are we!! (or am I confused)!!!

Quote:

Since the ITF was formed in 1966 & I have found early indication (possible 1967) that they used knee spring, a case can be made that they never did the horizontal wave that some other Arts do.



thats one for the history buffs, but Gen Choi could have changed it from the onset certainly.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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