FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 45 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn, Ron_Cooley, businns
22902 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 12
cxt 7
trevek 6
JKogas 5
futsaowingchun 2
July
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Iaido movements speed
by TooNice
04/14/14 01:47 PM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
04/12/12 11:16 AM
Recent Posts
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by cxt
Yesterday at 11:35 AM
centerline concepts
by Dobbersky
07/18/14 06:14 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:38 AM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
10 San Sik drills-Wing Chun's foundation
by futsaowingchun
06/30/14 11:20 AM
"Ip Man" and "Ip Man 2" the movies.
by TaekwonDoFan
06/30/14 11:02 AM
Forget all that health stuff
by TaekwonDoFan
06/29/14 03:18 AM
Forum Stats
22902 Members
36 Forums
35563 Topics
432450 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >
Topic Options
#318239 - 01/26/07 09:20 AM ITF TKD Sine-Wave
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
My quesions are simple (to start with)......
1. When was the Sine-Wave type of movement introduced into ITF TKD?
2. By the General? If so, how old was he at the time?
3. What was the reason for doing this? Because essentially by adopting the Sine-Wave, most of the starting arm positions have been altered.

That should be enough to keep you going...
Please remember, try to stick to the topic.

Thanks
GriffyGriff
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

Top
#318240 - 01/26/07 10:56 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1

This thread may have some of the info you are looking for.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

Top
#318241 - 01/26/07 12:39 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

My quesions are simple (to start with)......
1. When was the Sine-Wave type of movement introduced into ITF TKD?
2. By the General? If so, how old was he at the time?
3. What was the reason for doing this? Because essentially by adopting the Sine-Wave, most of the starting arm positions have been altered.

That should be enough to keep you going...
Please remember, try to stick to the topic.

Thanks
GriffyGriff


<<<<<

The link gives exhaustive info, but briefly:
1. The term does not appear until the encyclopedia which bears a publication date of 1980 or 1981. However, earlier books referred to knee spring and keeping the knees flexed. In the 1970's we called it "Spring Style", so for the most part the term sine wave was merely a refinement of terminology already in use.
2. Yes, General Choi was the author of the book, It is unknown if someone helped him decide upon this term. The publication date would put General Choi's age at about 60. However there is typicaly quite a lag from authoring something to publication. So there may have been a gap of a year or more from coining the term to publication.
3. The reason was to formulate a description for his idea of employing the knee flexion to assist with generating power in hand techniques. This concept was not new at the time as his works already includeed it. Nor is or was the concept unique to TKD or Gneral Choi's system. It can be found in many arts from Western Style boxing to Bruce Lees 1 inch punch description as well as the idea of Kinetic Linking found in the discovery Channels Xtreme Martial Arts show. It differntiates TKD from the "Level Headed" motion found in many Karate systems.

Frankly, I have no idea what you are referring to vis a vis sine wave altering hand positions.

Top
#318242 - 01/26/07 05:07 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Hi Earl.
It may have been just my personal experience, but watching guys go through Gunan Sogi, Najundae Bakat Makgi, using the Sine-Wave style. They would lower their hands to waist level in mid movement then attempt to get the impact point on the finalised drop step (Both arms would not return to shoulder level start position). In the style I am used to, we start with both arms at shoulder level (Making a cross with the forearms). Then hip twist and power the block in at the same time.
did that make sense?

Top
#318243 - 01/28/07 01:50 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I'm interested in the dates. I began training with TAGB (TKD Assoc of Great Britain)in the early 1990's. This assoc was a major break-away from Mr Rhee Ki Ha's UKTA in early 1980's. These were some of the leading British ITF practitioners at the time.

In TAGB we were taught waist-twist.

When my instructor left TAGB (another break-away) to form GTI our new assoc considered rejoining ITF. The senior instructors had meetings with Gen Choi and there were a series of workshops and seminars. As a lower rank (red-tag)I attended a seminar with the General where he demonstarted sine-wave and explained what it was. this was around 1994. Until then we'd never seen it, even from our seniors.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#318244 - 01/28/07 09:05 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

My quesions are simple (to start with)......
1. When was the Sine-Wave type of movement introduced into ITF TKD?



For the Uk at least, it was first mentioned in 1983 (in Derby).. but not instituted fully until the 90's.. though that is not the same sine-wave that you see the ITF doing now (see link below)

Quote:

3. What was the reason for doing this?



The reason given or the reason lots of other people believe!! see: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html and make your own mind up! The reason I say that is because opinion is divided.. I (and others) here believe one thing, whilst others believe another and argue its worth.. so each to his own really! On top of that, theres a non-exaggerated version and a vastly over exaggerated version, plus the original version!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (01/28/07 09:07 PM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318245 - 01/29/07 10:53 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

Hi Earl.
It may have been just my personal experience, but watching guys go through Gunan Sogi, Najundae Bakat Makgi, using the Sine-Wave style. They would lower their hands to waist level in mid movement then attempt to get the impact point on the finalised drop step (Both arms would not return to shoulder level start position). In the style I am used to, we start with both arms at shoulder level (Making a cross with the forearms). Then hip twist and power the block in at the same time.
did that make sense?


<<<

Do you have a strong Chung Do Kwan Lineage? This is similar to how I was first taught when we were still affiliated with Han Cha Kyo.

Basicaly, the chamber position is technique specific and not sine wave specific. This highlights an example of how General Choi was purpose specific concerning technical parameters. He always emphasized that the #1 training secret was to know the purpose of the move (This differs from what is listed as #1 in his book. ) Any way one recurring theme was to not unduly expose vital spots with chamber positions. As such the Low outer forear walking stance block you reference (while not having specifics in the book I can find) chambers at the solar plexus level It finishes with the elbow bent 25 degreees and is meant to imapct the top / tibia of the leg (Or back forearm if someone were doing a kneeling puunch for example, ) and the left block is used to protect the left lower abdomen, finishing with the thumb knuckle side of the fist at the centerline (Old style had fist over the knee. Again this position keeps vital areas covered. )vica versa for right side. The low Knifehand block chammbers at the floating rib, finishing with a 15 degreee elbow bend meant to strike the side of the attacking limb. The different chambers result in more of a downward motion for the forearm and more side to side for the knifehand. I could not find the text reference for starting positions, but they were well covered at instructor courses.

Hope this helps.

Top
#318246 - 02/01/07 01:55 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

1. When was the Sine-Wave type of movement introduced into ITF TKD?
2. By the General? If so, how old was he at the time?
3. What was the reason for doing this? Because essentially by adopting the Sine-Wave, most of the starting arm positions have been altered. GriffyGriff




1- SW, 1st called knee spring was introduced as early as 1967 in the instructor courses taught by the ITF Chief Instructor back then. Knee spring appears in a later edition of the 1972 text. The term SW appears in the 1st edition of the 15 Volume Encylopedia dated 1983, but 1st printed in 1985. So may argue that knee spring was not SW, as it was not as pronounced as it is now. However, it appears from my research that it was always relax, which caused you to go down & then up - down.

2- Ambassador Choi was born in 1918, so depending on which year you use, one can calculate the age. He along with his top instructors played a role in putting together the syllabus. He as the Founder, would be credited.

3- The chambers or previous positions you explain, seem like older Korean Karate type of movement. I was taught at first, 1970s that same way you described. I was corrected to conform the the ITF standard in the 1980s. I can not speak to the chambers or previous positions corresponding to the SW evolution, as all or most Taekwon-Do techniques have evolved over the years.

Top
#318247 - 02/01/07 02:10 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
When it comes to Sine Wave & how it is applied, I thought I would add this. After doing some more study, I found some direction given by ITF Taekwon-Do Founder, Choi Hong Hi. He is talking about formal fundamental exercises & comparing those methods to actual combat. The example he uses in this instance is punching from the hip. However, the principle or message can be applied to most fundamental exercises:
“The student of Taekwon-Do is expected to meet any attack from any directions; furthermore, the fist does not necessarily have to be delivered always from the hip to the target. TIME may not permit you to do so in an actual situation; therefore it is better to train in the various ways of punching from any position, provided one masters the fundamental methods mentioned above, visualizing a changing situation in relation to target distance, target opportunity, and so on”.

I think this compliments the idea I was trying to relay using my gun shooting analogy on a previous SW thread.

Top
#318248 - 02/02/07 12:07 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

The term does not appear until the encyclopedia which bears a publication date of 1980 or 1981. However, earlier books referred to knee spring and keeping the knees flexed. In the 1970's we called it "Spring Style", so for the most part the term sine wave was merely a refinement of terminology already in use.



-- Sorry, but I (as you know) disagree and feel its simply a way to make all the changes seem more correct and justify them, instead of accepting the real reasons things were instituted!

Quote:

1- SW, 1st called knee spring was introduced as early as 1967 in the instructor courses taught by the ITF Chief Instructor back then. Knee spring appears in a later edition of the 1972 text. The term SW appears in the 1st edition of the 15 Volume Encylopedia dated 1983, but 1st printed in 1985. So may argue that knee spring was not SW, as it was not as pronounced as it is now. However, it appears from my research that it was always relax, which caused you to go down & then up - down.




As ITFUnity knows, I am one of the ones that strongly disagrees with this - SW was never called knee spring, not then and not now! When it was introduced (the original up/down version) it was never said to replace knee spring but accompany it - simply SW when moving, knee spring when not!!

Firstly, knee spring is not sine wave and was not an earlier precusor to it. Just because the knee bends when you do the 'modern' sine wave of down/up/down it is performed in opposition to a knee spring! The bending of the knee in modern sine-wave is simply a result in movement (ie. the knee must bend when you move), the knee spring was a sharp movement, executed the same time as a technique - to compliment it and add power to it!

Secondly, at least in the UK, the term 'sine wave' was not mentioned until 1983 and this was in relation to a simple and natural up and down motion. It has pictures of this in the manuals and again, it is not related to knee spring.
see: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/sw1_311x400.jpg
And: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/sw2_310x400.jpg
Also: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/sw4_311x400.jpg
-- you will note on all the pictures, there is no down movement before the up movement - an extra photo would have showed it if it was indeed that was the original idea. Further more, the locked knee of the back leg is simply a result of solidifying your stance.. it is not thust back like a normal knee spring - hence they are different!

Thirdly, the newer sine-wave was only pushed in the late 90's when the ITF had some political issues and decided to try to force people to join them by doing things differently and claiming theres was the only way, thus true TKD, when in fact for years they had been teaching it a different way. It was a political move!

Finally, some believe that the sine wave allows flow as its based ona Taoist theory(!) of continuity! If correct, the modern version does not relay this as it is not continious!

You guys know that I respect your knowledge, but simply cannot accept the fairy tale that sine-wave (especailly the modern down/up/down version)was always there!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (02/02/07 12:10 PM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318249 - 02/03/07 03:05 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Mr. A!

Here we go again

No we won't. I agree & disagree. Knee spring is & was part of SW, but you are right. It was NEVER as pronounced as it is now. I think Master Weiss says it best, when he says the Founder struggled to find better terms to describe what he wanted. I also concur that the emphasis changed due to politics. I can't prove it, but that is my honest feeling. It came right after the late (G)Master Park, Jung Tae was expelled. The Founder's son alluded to it, in a round-a-bout way as well.

However, I think you will be pleased to know, that the ITF-V just came out with a great 2 page explanation of SW, complete with a diagram. It doesn't look exactly like yours, but it hammers home the same point.
And guess what?
They use the terminology of relax/up/down!
I think they must have been listening to me!


I have to scan it & e-mail it to you. I would be very interested in your comments!

Top
#318250 - 02/03/07 07:52 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Here we go again, No we won't.



LOL.. we do have some great chats sont we!

Anyway, here is proof that knee spring IS NOT and NEVER was sine-wave. Though this refers the up/down version as published in his books - **In the "Training Secret" where number 8 states: "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the knee spring properly." ** - Therefore I say again, Knee-spring cannot of been sine-wave if it is used to help sine-wave!! As the up to date equivilant would read "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the Sine wave properly."


Quote:

Knee spring is & was part of SW, but you are right.



I agree, but still feel there is a big difference to when knee-spring was taught and how the knee works in sine wave!

The next bit of your post (which i edited out for length) I agree mostly with!!


-----------
Quote:

However, I think you will be pleased to know, that the ITF-V just came out with a great 2 page explanation of SW, complete with a diagram. It doesn't look exactly like yours, but it hammers home the same point.
And guess what?
They use the terminology of relax/up/down!
I think they must have been listening to me!




Actually, that wouldnt surprise me. A discussion on another forum actually found its way (training wise) into the last ITF(C) IIC in Ireland!! they do say the walls have ears!!!

Quote:

I have to scan it & e-mail it to you. I would be very interested in your comments!






Please do, id be interested to read it as they are supposidly doing scientific study on it!

Thanks,

Stuart

Ps. **The Sine wave motion is also mentioned in the Theory of power under MASS where it states: "...by slightly raising the hip at the beginning of the motion and lowering the hip at the moment of impact to drop the body weight into the motion..." - note it doesnt mention the drop first!!

PPs. This (**) came from the ITF NZ website (I just cut and pasted it, so thanks to paul McPhail for it)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318251 - 02/03/07 09:11 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
switchfoot Offline
Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 32
Loc: FL
What is the sine-wave? And who is the general from the first post

Top
#318252 - 02/04/07 01:07 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Who can say when the sign wave started being used in TKD. I can assure you that it is nothing new nor something special. It is told in a tale of old legends that Master Choi was practicing one day his hyungs, when a pretty girl cameDiligenty the master tryied not to break his concentration, but alass the young girl was so beautiful, that the founder was so entranced with her beauty that he waved hello to her, ths then became the sign wave. And one of the components of his threory of power. Years later hundreds of thousand of students perform this movement during forms training, all bouncing hello to each other. It is always nice to greet people prior to combat.

Um ofcourse theres always those other versions of why Chan Hong stylist use the sign wave, but mines is much more believable.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#318253 - 02/04/07 06:57 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Um ofcourse theres always those other versions of why Chan Hong stylist use the sign wave, but mines is much more believable.




LOL - that reminded me of this (written years ago by a BB I know): http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_SineWaveStories.html
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318254 - 02/04/07 03:29 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Here we go again, No we won't.



LOL.. we do have some great chats sont we!
Anyway, here is proof that knee spring IS NOT and NEVER was sine-wave. Though this refers the up/down version as published in his books - **In the "Training Secret" where number 8 states: "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the knee spring properly." ** - Therefore I say again, Knee-spring cannot of been sine-wave if it is used to help sine-wave!! As the up to date equivilant would read "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the Sine wave properly."
Quote:

Knee spring is & was part of SW, but you are right.


I agree, but still feel there is a big difference to when knee-spring was taught and how the knee works in sine wave!Ps. **The Sine wave motion is also mentioned in the Theory of power under MASS where it states: "...by slightly raising the hip at the beginning of the motion and lowering the hip at the moment of impact to drop the body weight into the motion..." - note it doesnt mention the drop first!!




Okay, I can't go there again, as you are too strong of an opponent Besides, you may be right

In any event, I think we are both right! Its funny, as I was going to post those same points to bolster my arguement. So let me see if I can refine it:
SW in Taekwon-Do is used to create power, by adding mass & smoothness to the technique. SW has evolved, much as other aspects of ITF Chang Hon Taekwon-Do has over the years. The cause for the development is a topic for another thread. I also concur, there were some of those political motives as well.
Now, just as SW has evolved, so has the terminology. In the early days, there was no SW or knee spring etc. There was just Karate style movment, as evidenced by his 1965 text. My research led me to comments by an early Chief Instructor of the ITF, who said, the up down movement was there, as early as 1967(?).
Now as you & I rightly point out, it does appear in the 1972 text, as knee spring, not SW. However, the basis for knee spring, is to do the same as SW. It is evidenced as early as 1972 in both the stepping & spot exercise sections. Subsequent editions add it to the ToP.

(Remember the Theory of Power, 1st had 4 factors:
1965
1-reaction force
2-concentration
3-balance (equilibrium)
4-breath control
1972
5-speed
subsequent
6-mass
(Current)
We have the term Sine Wave 1st used in print in the 1983 edition of the 15 volume encylopedia, printed in 1985. There of course can be more than 1 reason for it appearing then. The 15 volumes allowed for more in depth detail, the Art was evolving &/or the terminology became more refined, as was often the case, as this was a Korean trying to use English to convey his thoughts & principles. The 1st person to help him with this was Justin C. S. Kim, followed by Robert Walson, Choi Jung Hwa & others, including NKs.

There is no question that he constantly updated terminology to better describe what he wanted. To me, knee spring & SW are 1 in the same, as they share the common goal. How knee spring or SW is implemented & how it was emphasized in print & in action has certainly changed. But lets not split hairs

The point you make is right. When 1st taught, it was knee spring. When it was then taught as SW, the emphasis was on up down movement. Circa 1990-91, when (G)Master Park, Jung Tae left the ITF, (he was the Secty Genl & Chairman of the Instruction Committee) it was a HUGE loss. Maybe as an attempt to minimize that BIG loss, as he was the 1 who taught the IICs, the Founder now began to emphasize the down up down movement.

However, when you watch him perform, he always did down up down. It was simply a result after relaxing after execution of the movement, which is required. So it is probably best JMHO to describe it as relax up down. I agree that the current method utilized is very much over the top. I am glad to see that slowly this is apparently being rectified.

There is no SW without knee spring & knee spring results in a SW like movement. However, as you correctly point out, there is no written documentation of the down up down movement of today, other than what I point out. This can not simply be written off as an oversight, as there was 2 subsequent editions of the 15 volumes & at least 4, maybe 5 editions of the condensed version. I would use this glaring fact, that the correct movement should be a slight down then up & down or better yet, relax up down

Top
#318255 - 02/04/07 04:21 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: switchfoot]
switchfoot Offline
Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 32
Loc: FL
Quote:

What is the sine-wave? And who is the general from the first post




so what is the sine wave?

Top
#318256 - 02/04/07 06:15 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Besides, you may be right



LOL.. and I wont go there again except to answer a few points:

Quote:

SW has evolved



Not evolved (as that would indicate it was seen a better way) - it was changed...

Quote:

there were some of those political motives as well.



Some, possibly the only AFAIK!

Quote:

My research led me to comments by an early Chief Instructor of the ITF, who said, the up down movement was there, as early as 1967(?).



That I dont really argue with, though I was asured by another ITF Master that in the UK it was first mention in 1983.. though as I said previously, the dropping into techniques is evident in some of the pioneers footage!

Quote:

However, the basis for knee spring, is to do the same as SW.



Sorry, but i disagree. Knee-spring was for stationary techniques, sine-wave was for moving. Further more, new sine wave is for both! Also, i was taught that the head doesnt move for knee spring, as the knee bends, but the ankle raises to compensate = same height! I contest dear sir.. the two are different things!


Quote:

To me, knee spring & SW are 1 in the same



And to me they are totally different

Quote:

as they share the common goal.



If that is to create more power.. then i agree (in relation to the original sine wave.. not the new one)

Quote:

How knee spring or SW is implemented & how it was emphasized in print & in action has certainly changed. But lets not split hairs



No, lets not and lets not make fairy stories about it evolving either!! (no offence intended there)

Quote:

The point you make is right.



I know.. thats why I argue against it so prevailently!

Quote:

When 1st taught, it was knee spring.



And it still is (even with sine-wave!)

Quote:

When it was then taught as SW, the emphasis was on up down movement. Circa 1990-91, when (G)Master Park, Jung Tae left the ITF, (he was the Secty Genl & Chairman of the Instruction Committee) it was a HUGE loss.



Yup

Quote:

Maybe as an attempt to minimize that BIG loss, as he was the 1 who taught the IICs, the Founder now began to emphasize the down up down movement.



Perhaps!

Quote:

However, when you watch him perform, he always did down up down. It was simply a result after relaxing after execution of the movement, which is required.



As we discussed before, i can live with relaxed, just not down.. after a tension of the muscles on an impact.. they will of course relax.. hence this is natural!

Quote:

So it is probably best JMHO to describe it as relax up down.



Again, i disagree, as it is normal to relax are muscle tension associated with a technique.. by adding "relax" in.. even though this may be reasonibly correct it makes it out like theres an additional movement, when there is not!

Quote:

I agree that the current method utilized is very much over the top. I am glad to see that slowly this is apparently being rectified.



As am I!

Quote:

There is no SW without knee spring & knee spring results in a SW like movement.



The same applies to walking, running, football and in fact any movement! I still contest the two were put there as different things, a flex of the knee in a normal movement does not consititue sinewave and even the OTT ones show nothing like the original knee spring!

Quote:

However, as you correctly point out, there is no written documentation of the down up down movement of today, other than what I point out.



Which makes it dodgy at best and me totally right at worst (in the ITfs case LOL)

Quote:

This can not simply be written off as an oversight, as there was 2 subsequent editions of the 15 volumes & at least 4, maybe 5 editions of the condensed version.



Hooray.. somesones finally heard me!

Quote:

I would use this glaring fact, that the correct movement should be a slight down then up & down or better yet, relax up down



And I would say, if your talking to someone who knows about TKD and has been taught correctly, there is no reason to tell them to relax, as they know this already and should be teaching it in all techniques!!!

LOL,

Again, this is much fun!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (02/04/07 06:18 PM)

Top
#318257 - 02/04/07 06:16 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: switchfoot]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318258 - 02/04/07 06:33 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>>As ITFUnity knows, I am one of the ones that strongly disagrees with this - SW was never called knee spring, not then and not now! When it was introduced (the original up/down version) it was never said to replace knee spring but accompany it - simply SW when moving, knee spring when not!!<<<<


Disagree all you like. However, ITF Unity and I were practicing it when it was knee spring and then spring style in the 1970's so it is easy for us to see the connection.

Top
#318259 - 02/04/07 06:43 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>> you will note on all the pictures, there is no down movement before the up movement - an extra photo would have showed it if it was indeed that was the original idea. Further more, the locked knee of the back leg is simply a result of solidifying your stance.. it is not thust back like a normal knee spring - hence they are different!

Thirdly, the newer sine-wave was only pushed in the late 90's when the ITF had some political issues and decided to try to force people to join them by doing things differently and claiming theres was the only way, thus true TKD, when in fact for years they had been teaching it a different way. It was a political move!

Finally, some believe that the sine wave allows flow as its based ona Taoist theory(!) of continuity! If correct, the modern version does not relay this as it is not continious!

You guys know that I respect your knowledge, but simply cannot accept the fairy tale that sine-wave (especailly the modern down/up/down version)was always there!

Stuart
<<<<<

Sorry, as posted before your version is the fairy tale as I have experienced the reality. While explanations channged, the reality and methodology changed little as it relates to the Down up down issue. I have related a story and among others you know Master Steiner was there as well, at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down but it looked like down up down. After the course I flew Master Nunez to my school to teach and demo it since I was still making the adjustment and he was better at it then I . We had this very conversationas I watched him go down first. He is an intuitive learnwer and can see and replicate motion without over analyzing. At first he said there was no initial down, but then when he took some time and analyzed what he did he agreed that there was in fact a slight downward motion. About the same time GM Sereff traveled extensively with gen Choi and relates a story fo Gen Choi being in a subway station in Japan and watching him move. He tells how something clicked helping him better understand whta Gen Choi was doing which was the initial relaxing down. After that the explanations became better relating theinitial down. Perhaps master Steiner can share his thoughts.

Top
#318260 - 02/04/07 07:17 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

1- Sorry, but i disagree. Knee-spring was for stationary techniques, sine-wave was for moving. Further more, new sine wave is for both!

2- Also, i was taught that the head doesnt move for knee spring, as the knee bends, but the ankle raises to compensate = same height! I contest dear sir.. the two are different things!
Stuart




This may be where we go wrong. SW was always for stepping & in spot, stationary. I think this gets back to the semantics or terminology debate. When we learned SW it was most definately for both, still is. This was directly & drastically different from the way I 1st learned my patterns, called Hyungs, forms then, by an ITF Master, who was really Korean Karate (MooDoKwan). He distinctly told me to keep level, like the ceiling was touching the top of your head. That I always thought was Karate linea (horizontal) movement. We were taught to generate power by the hip twist. So we were both taught wrong or different from the ITF standard. However, make no mistake about it, SW, knee spring call it what you want. It always applied to stepping & stationary. As a matter of fact, when we were taught correctly, it was introduced to us with stationary movements. It was easier to comprehand the concept with out the confusion of the steping. I still tach it that way, as it makes most sense & flows very easy, making the concept easier to grasp. IMHO

Top
#318261 - 02/04/07 07:23 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
theres lots of TKD sparring clips available now on youtube....could someone show me one sparring clip where one or both are using sine wave power generation. thanks.

Top
#318262 - 02/04/07 07:25 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

There is no SW without knee spring & knee spring results in a SW like movement.



The same applies to walking, running, football and in fact any movement! Stuart




NOT REALLY!

Not the horizontal movement I 1st learned how to do the ChonJi forms with. Don't some MAs still use that type of movement?
Certainly ITF Chang Hon doesn't. Since the ITF was formed in 1966 & I have found early indication (possible 1967) that they used knee spring, a case can be made that they never did the horizontal wave that some other Arts do.

Top
#318263 - 02/04/07 07:29 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes of course it is there. You have to look for it. Remember that it is just 1 part of 1 factor of 6, that comprises the theory of power. Theories teach us concepts that can make things better. In this case, power. However, thisdoes not mean that it can often be fully transfered to every situation at hand.

Top
#318264 - 02/04/07 08:02 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Disagree all you like. However, ITF Unity and I were practicing it when it was knee spring and then spring style in the 1970's so it is easy for us to see the connection.



I have used facts to add weight to my (personal) disagreement. AS I SAID IN THE EARLIER POST:

**In the "Training Secret" where number 8 states: "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the knee spring properly." ** - Therefore I say again, Knee-spring cannot of been sine-wave if it is used to help sine-wave!! As the up to date equivilant would read "To create a sine wave during the movement by utilizing the Sine wave properly."

You may see a connection, thats fair enough.. but that doesnt make it so!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318265 - 02/04/07 08:08 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Sorry, as posted before your version is the fairy tale as I have experienced the reality. While explanations channged, the reality and methodology changed little as it relates to the Down up down issue. I have related a story and among others you know Master Steiner was there as well, at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down but it looked like down up down. After the course I flew Master Nunez to my school to teach and demo it since I was still making the adjustment and he was better at it then I . We had this very conversationas I watched him go down first. He is an intuitive learnwer and can see and replicate motion without over analyzing. At first he said there was no initial down, but then when he took some time and analyzed what he did he agreed that there was in fact a slight downward motion. About the same time GM Sereff traveled extensively with gen Choi and relates a story fo Gen Choi being in a subway station in Japan and watching him move. He tells how something clicked helping him better understand whta Gen Choi was doing which was the initial relaxing down. After that the explanations became better relating theinitial down. Perhaps master Steiner can share his thoughts.




First of all, my apologies for the "fairytale" bit - wrong choice of words - I didnt mean any offence!

That said.. you have just posted it yourself! I quote: at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down - which:
a. Corresponds with the manual (and consecutive reprints)
b. Confirms my points

The rest is subjective and could, in all honesty be someones take on it, my opinion on the newer type sine-wave is a personal one but is supported by facts (as my opinions on the original version is based on facts, not opinions)! Again, this is no meant to offend as I agree with both of you about relaxing before it.. just that its part of the preceeding movement!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318266 - 02/04/07 08:13 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

This may be where we go wrong. SW was always for stepping & in spot, stationary.



If stationary.. to create the curve in sine-wave, the studnet would have to move/lean his whole body backwards first, would he not.. otherwise its a simply up and drop motion (disimilar to sine wave which works on a curve)

Quote:

He distinctly told me to keep level, like the ceiling was touching the top of your head.



Ive always learn to simply rise and drop into techniques when moving1

Quote:

We were taught to generate power by the hip twist. So we were both taught wrong or different from the ITF standard.



I was taught that way to, as well as the above and use of knee spring.. this was the ITF standard at the time.

Quote:

It always applied to stepping & stationary.



Perhaps.. but see my comment above! If you feel that rising up and dropping (think punch in sitting stance) is sine-wave, then we are in agreement (Though I feel they are not the same as mentioned).

I still contest however, that the newer way is a)not natural and b) too slow!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318267 - 02/04/07 08:14 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
ok. thats fair. which concept is it then? sinking into strikes? is going up before dropping into a strike, a training method for beginners to better get the feel of the sinking concept?

Top
#318268 - 02/04/07 08:16 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

NOT REALLY!



Yes really, as your saying bending the knee constitues knee-spring and all the things Ive mentions bends the knee also - as they have to .. to be natural!!

Quote:

Not the horizontal movement I 1st learned how to do the ChonJi forms with. Don't some MAs still use that type of movement?



I agree.. bit we are not talking about horizontal wave.. are we!! (or am I confused)!!!

Quote:

Since the ITF was formed in 1966 & I have found early indication (possible 1967) that they used knee spring, a case can be made that they never did the horizontal wave that some other Arts do.



thats one for the history buffs, but Gen Choi could have changed it from the onset certainly.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318269 - 02/04/07 08:19 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

ok. thats fair. which concept is it then? sinking into strikes? is going up before dropping into a strike, a training method for beginners to better get the feel of the sinking concept?



For me it was (and always has been IMO) simply raising slighly (ie. naturally - think walking where you must go higher as your legs come togethor) then dropping into a technique.

I leave Earl and ITFUnity to explain their take on it!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318270 - 02/04/07 08:23 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
ITFunity & Earl ,

hey guys, we have done this discussion lots of times now and all have strong points to put across, and we always come to this stale mate, so shall we agree to disagree and let others make up their own minds based on the posts we have all done?

You know I hold you both in the highest regards and you know this is a pet peeve of mine, which results in these discussions and everytime we do it.. my opinions never change.. on the subject at hand or of you guys!

So I bid farewell to this discussion, and will call it a stalemate as I said!

Good arguments guys! Readers.. make your own minds up!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318271 - 02/04/07 11:02 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes I agree!

Mr. Morris, thats right. Maybe someone can direct you to aprevious thread, where we really got into it, rahter deeply. In one of them, I used a pistol shooting/gun fight analysis for comparision.


Top
#318272 - 02/04/07 11:33 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I was curious if anything has been learned about it since then.

At best, it's an exagurated movement as a training tool to teach students the concept of dropping weight into a strike.

at worst, it's utterly rediculous.

Top
#318273 - 02/05/07 05:45 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
ITFunity, StuartA, Mr.Earlweis,

Perhaps you guys can show us some examples. It seems the argument this time was between those who actually teach, use and say the sign wave works.

The rest of us might benefit by some examples that you could find on youtube, google, or any media site. Who knows it might even help yourselves see what the other is trying to say. Because it sounds like 2 different ways of the sign wave is being discussed. For those of us who do not understand one way, adding a second variation is frustrating.

I myself have looked for examples, but I don't kjnow what to look for. The best example of ITF style forms I have seen is in a video game. Actually the video game is one of my favorites it's called Tekken 3. Theres a taekwondo character who's moves were copied by an ITF practictioner, durring the games cut scenes he performs a pattern. There is an up and down motion after each stance, block, and strike. It looks very nice, very masterful... for taekwondo patterns anyway.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#318274 - 02/05/07 08:35 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

At best, it's an exagurated movement as a training tool to teach students the concept of dropping weight into a strike.




Yes it is something along those lines.

Top
#318275 - 02/05/07 08:51 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Perhaps you guys can show us some examples. It seems the argument this time was between those who actually teach, use and say the sign wave works.
The rest of us might benefit by some examples that you could find on youtube, google, or any media site.




The only examples I am aware of are those applied in patterns, an aesthetic display to also highlight characteristic beauty of our SD Art form. I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
A good example may be found in power test. I do not think that all aspects of the theory of power can always be captured in sparring, as that was never the point.
(This is why I added this, which I repeat here)
When it comes to Sine Wave & how it is applied, I thought I would add this. After doing some more study, I found some direction given by ITF Taekwon-Do Founder, Choi Hong Hi. He is talking about formal fundamental exercises & comparing those methods to actual combat. The example he uses in this instance is punching from the hip. However, the principle or message can be applied to most fundamental exercises:
“The student of Taekwon-Do is expected to meet any attack from any directions; furthermore, the fist does not necessarily have to be delivered always from the hip to the target. TIME may not permit you to do so in an actual situation; therefore it is better to train in the various ways of punching from any position, provided one masters the fundamental methods mentioned above, visualizing a changing situation in relation to target distance, target opportunity, and so on”.

I think this compliments the idea I was trying to relay using my gun shooting analogy.


I think this arguement was more of semantics & terminology wrapped around the evolution or change in the emphasis of certain aspects of SW, by those who have had some experience with it.

Top
#318276 - 02/05/07 05:20 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
mmmmm..
Quote:

At best, it's an exagurated movement as a training tool to teach students the concept of dropping weight into a strike, at worst, it's utterly ridiculous.




Now we are getting to an interesting side of this debate.
I can understand the concept of the "Drop Step Strike" (I come from a boxing / Wing Chun background). But that only applies to FORWARD motion etc. But the reason why I initially started this new thread was because the thought suddenly hit me that this MAY have been introduced when General Choy Hong Hi got too old to effectively deliver full power via hip twisting and therefore looked at a more ecconomical way of delivering power to a concentrated spatial location* for his age group.

*Concentrated Spatial Location - because the guys at these clubs had exactly the same idea that the power of the punch was to be delivered in a precise area, above the range of the leading foot, rather than driving through a target.

I was also possibly attributing the Sine-Wave-Style with an alteration of starting hand positions. (As this was my direct experience, visiting various clubs that practice the Sine-Wave). For me, I enjoy finding the starting hand positions and similar movements in Chinese Gung Fu / Karate and it has helped me immensely. But I was dissapointed at what I saw as a further obfiscation by changing the starting hand positions etc.

This is intended as an honest post.
Not intended to spark anything but an honest, open-minded discussion.

Take it easy.
GriffyGriff
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

Top
#318277 - 02/05/07 05:33 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Quote:

“The student of Taekwon-Do is expected to meet any attack from any directions; furthermore, the fist does not necessarily have to be delivered always from the hip to the target. TIME may not permit you to do so in an actual situation; therefore it is better to train in the various ways of punching from any position, provided one masters the fundamental methods mentioned above, visualizing a changing situation in relation to target distance, target opportunity, and so on”




This for me speaks volumes.
I perceive this as saying that once you have developed the fundamentals of energy generation (hip twist)....
Then if time (or your immediate environment) is a constraining factor, you should beable to deliver a punch from any starting position and NOT RELIGIOUSLY DELIVER FROM THE HIP.

It is just an entirely objective statement regarding the approach to defending oneself. It is also qualified by the line
Quote:

provided one masters the fundamental methods mentioned above


i.e. Punching from the hip.

This does not seem to refer why the Sine-Wave was REALLY introduced.

Cheers
GriffyGriff
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

Top
#318278 - 02/05/07 05:51 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
For sparring examples of sine wave, watch a boxer flex and straighten their knees. That is sine wave.

Top
#318279 - 02/05/07 05:58 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>That said.. you have just posted it yourself! I quote: at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down - which:
a. Corresponds with the manual (and consecutive reprints)
b. Confirms my points<<<

If your points are that 1.The verbiage is inexact, 2.could have been better, and 3. Should have been improved, well then we agree. In fact those points are not limited to sine wave. We recently had an exchange along those lines vis a vis offensive and defensive Hooking Kick. If your point is that the methodology changed, then we disagree because you are in error. What I stated was what Gneral Choi said did not exactly convey what he was doing at the time. Later, the description changed to conform to the terminology.

Top
#318280 - 02/05/07 06:54 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Mr Weis,


With all due respect, from the exaggerated examples of movement that I have seen, I cannot say this sine-wave is from a boxing paradigm. In fact, the mention of this begs a question and a comment. If boxing does contain this motion, why not just practice boxing in lieu of the aforementioned sine-wave and go from that point if application is in mind any way?

The “seating” motion in boxing, to my mind, isn’t a product of what has been shown. That seating motion is a product of the rear leg kicking off to move the boxer’s body weight into the punch and necessitating his hip to move and whip the arm into the punch. But it isn’t this up and down sine-wave motion which seems to be an answer to a question not needing to be asked. You want to apply punches like a boxer, boxing is the answer, not doing this movement.

Top
#318281 - 02/05/07 07:02 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: butterfly]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
very well put.

Top
#318282 - 02/05/07 09:46 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

If your points are that 1.The verbiage is inexact, 2.could have been better, and 3. Should have been improved, well then we agree.In fact those points are not limited to sine wave. We recently had an exchange along those lines vis a vis offensive and defensive Hooking Kick.



Well no.. my point was that the way its shown in the manual, was the same as the way Gen Choi taught it. I could accept a 'lost in translation' point, but as it was shown one way, by the arts founder, which concurred with how he wrote and photographed it.. I have to conclude that is the way he wanted it and nothing was "lost in translation" but was changed!

Quote:

If your point is that the methodology changed, then we disagree because you are in error.



Not in error according to what you saw General choi say & do, as well as what he wrote!!

Quote:

What I stated was what Gneral Choi said did not exactly convey what he was doing at the time. Later, the description changed to conform to the terminology.



See above on point 1. On point 2.. that has already been discussed and like I said previously, I think its best to respectfully agree to disagree and leave others to make up their own minds.

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318283 - 02/05/07 11:22 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: butterfly]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

Mr Weis,


With all due respect, from the exaggerated examples of movement that I have seen, I cannot say this sine-wave is from a boxing paradigm. In fact, the mention of this begs a question and a comment. If boxing does contain this motion, why not just practice boxing in lieu of the aforementioned sine-wave and go from that point if application is in mind any way?

The “seating” motion in boxing, to my mind, isn’t a product of what has been shown. That seating motion is a product of the rear leg kicking off to move the boxer’s body weight into the punch and necessitating his hip to move and whip the arm into the punch. But it isn’t this up and down sine-wave motion which seems to be an answer to a question not needing to be asked. You want to apply punches like a boxer, boxing is the answer, not doing this movement.


<<<

Why not just practice boxing? Good thought but flawed analogy. Boxing is a sporting contest with rules and most importantly gloves. The object of boxing is to score points. So, while sine wave is designed to teach body mechanics for power, it ignores other considerations if taken in isolation such as the need for defensive posture and the like geared toward boxing. Further, Boxing due to it's rules has a much more limited number of techniques than TKD. With regard to exageration, I can say this. 1. Unfortuneately if General Choi said something was good, often certain students felt is some was good, more was better and exagerated what he said, so ther e may in fact be bad examples of over exagerated sine wave. 2. While at RMCAT which is Peyton Quinn's Adrenal stress training center with fully padded assailants the teaching paradigm was to learn exagerated motions since adrenal stress makes motions smaller and if you start with small motions under adrenal stress they become too small and ineffective. Using larger motions for practice allows you to retain good body mechanics and power under adrenal stress. While they are teaching this I am thinking PATTERNS.

Top
#318284 - 02/05/07 11:39 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Well no.. my point was that the way its shown in the manual, was the same as the way Gen Choi taught it. <<<

For those of us who were with General Choi this statement is just flat out wrong. It IS NOT the way it was taught. Verbiage yea at one point however the physical demonstration differed from the verbiage. The verbiage was later conformed to the physical demonstration.

>>>I could accept a 'lost in translation' point, but as it was shown one way, by the arts founder, which concurred with how he wrote and photographed it..<<<


Again your statement is wrong. In person demonstrations did not show it this way.

>>> I have to conclude that is the way he wanted it and nothing was "lost in translation" but was changed!<<

Your erroneous conclusion is understandable, Having studied under some of General Choi's most knowledgeable students for 18 years and studied the book thoroughly I attended my first course with him in 1990. During that course I took extensive notes and had about 150 things I needed to fix. I could see how things were miscommunicated passing from person to person and misunderstood from reading the book. I often had an initial reaction when he explained something which was different than what I had been taught, and that reaction was "THAT's WRONG" but then I realized the author cannot be wrong when it comes to explaining his own work. By the time I took the second course I only had about 100 things I needed to fix. Some were things I really did not understand at earlier courses. Each subsequent course I found a few less things to fix. I also asked first time atttendees if they understood certain concepts General Choi was trying to convey, some of which I knew I did not understand the first or second time I was at a course with him. Often, they said they did not understand the concept.

It seems you find yourself in a similar predicament. You can continue to argue your point based upon your intepretation of the written work, however it does little to rebut firsthand experience with the author.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If your point is that the methodology changed, then we disagree because you are in error.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not in error according to what you saw General choi say & do, as well as what he wrote!!


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I stated was what Gneral Choi said did not exactly convey what he was doing at the time. Later, the description changed to conform to the terminology.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


See above on point 1. On point 2.. that has already been discussed and like I said previously, I think its best to respectfully agree to disagree and leave others to make up their own minds.

Regards,

Top
#318285 - 02/06/07 12:13 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

For those of us who were with General Choi this statement is just flat out wrong. It IS NOT the way it was taught. Verbiage yea at one point however the physical demonstration differed from the verbiage. The verbiage was later conformed to the physical demonstration.



I still dont understand why he couldnt demonstrate a slight drop.. its not exactly complicated and the need for 'words' isnt there.. ie. I see, so I do!

Quote:

Again your statement is wrong. In person demonstrations did not show it this way.



!!! But you said he did!!!

Quote:

Your erroneous conclusion is understandable



I conclude NOT that its been changed (nor that you have experienced this first hand), my arguments are based really around the reason for change (Some feel one way, others feel another) and the benefits of the change 9again some feel its improved it, others feel it hasnt).


Quote:

Having studied under some of General Choi's most knowledgeable students for 18 years and studied the book thoroughly



So have others that agree on my POV! And the book, as I keep saying says different, so it makes that a mute point!

Quote:

It seems you find yourself in a similar predicament.



No really. Its not that I dont understand it, or havnt seen it, or cant accept he changed it (for whatever reasons), I simply disagree on the reason for the change and the validity of it!

Quote:

You can continue to argue your point based upon your intepretation of the written work



Written work, discussions with others with similar experiences with the General, general tests of the theory/practical and personal views and experience. And of course the books intereptation of it all!

Quote:

but then I realized the author cannot be wrong when it comes to explaining his own work...
.. however it does little to rebut firsthand experience with the author.



In theory, no he cannot be wrong (what he explains can be wrong however and then it comes dowen to whether they admit it or not and state the reason for a change that is the real reason!

Like I said, we are going round in circles I think!!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318286 - 02/06/07 01:41 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Quote:

Why not just practice boxing? Good thought but flawed analogy. Boxing is a sporting contest with rules and most importantly gloves. The object of boxing is to score points. So, while sine wave is designed to teach body mechanics for power, it ignores other considerations if taken in isolation such as the need for defensive posture and the like geared toward boxing. Further, Boxing due to it's rules has a much more limited number of techniques than TKD.




Mr. Weiss,

I think you are misconstrewing something here. Basically, that boxing may be rule laden but so is the application of any resistive type punching you might wish to try in your curriculum or in any particular tournament.

Here, we are talking about mechanics and their viable use in a delivery system. Whether in boxing or in self defense, the punch and the mechanics of the punch do not change. There is no difference in a sporting environment to "the real" thing in application of technique. Only the intent is changed and perhaps allowable targets. In this instance, I hold by my original statements that the sine-wave motion that you describe are not necessary for good punching and thus must be considered as a characteristic of one particular style that does not necessarily boost technical ability in striking.

-B

Top
#318287 - 02/06/07 07:49 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Quote:

Boxing is a sporting contest with rules and most importantly gloves. The object of boxing is to score points.



check your history, TKD was specifically designed for sport using Karate as it's root. Boxing evolved from bare knuckle fighting. The concept of sinking into strikes for more knockout power is an evolved one.

'sine wave' seems nothing more than exagurated sinking. only the exagurration itself is new. most Arts have the concept...but it's more of an integrated concept than an isolated practice. The reason ITF claims the old concept under a new name and economy is most likely a political one - to distinguish itself from WTF and to counter criticism of TKD's weak upper body game.

combine that with giving teaching licence to people with less than 4 years of training, kids teaching adults, etc, and you soon get a wide-spread misunderstanding of the concept of sinking...replaced instead with people emulating and teaching the signature movement with increasingly less regard for it's founding principle. Then you see bobbing up and down punching in horse stance (btw, only one other practice does this...it's called Tae Bo..they do it for fitness).

Few will come right out and say that 'sine wave' is a training tool to teach sinking....because they know other Arts have and integrate this same concept but without the exaguration or pursuit of signature. Instead, 'sine wave' gets mystified with an air of 'for me to know and you to find out'. an air thats always been rampant in MA. some use it to hide behind.

Top
#318288 - 02/06/07 08:12 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>
I still dont understand why he couldnt demonstrate a slight drop.. its not exactly complicated and the need for 'words' isnt there.. ie. I see, so I do! <<<<

Exactly my point which I guess I have been unsuccessful at making. He DID demonstrate the slight drop.

Top
#318289 - 02/06/07 08:15 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>

Having studied under some of General Choi's most knowledgeable students for 18 years and studied the book thoroughly


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So have others that agree on my POV! And the book, as I keep saying says different, so it makes that a mute point!<<<<

Again, apparently my point was missed. The people to whom you refer apparently shared in my errors having only studied with top students and the book. These errors were not realized until I studied directly with General Choi.

Top
#318290 - 02/06/07 08:20 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again your statement is wrong. In person demonstrations did not show it this way.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


!!! But you said he did!!!<<<

No, again a misunderstanding on your part based upon imperfect communication by the author vis a vis use of words. I related what he SAID, which was different then what he DID!

I have no problem with you voicing your opinion so long as you qualify it as based on second hand information and your reading of the book and issue a disclaimer that it differs from at least two people who have first hand experience with the author.

Top
#318291 - 02/06/07 08:24 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: butterfly]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>I hold by my original statements that the sine-wave motion that you describe are not necessary for good punching and thus must be considered as a characteristic of one particular style that does not necessarily boost technical ability in striking.<<<

Well then we do agree to disagee in that the knee flexion of the boxer is the same body mechanis as sine wave. It is also referred to in Bruce Lee's secret of the 1 inch punch. It can also be found elsewhere in theories like kinetic linking. Is it perhaps exagerated to a degree? Yes, many things in patterns are such as audible breathing. Aside from developing ggod habits that will translate to a combat situation, it helps the observer determine that you are performing correctly.

Top
#318292 - 02/06/07 08:35 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Quote:

check your history, TKD was specifically designed for sport using Karate as it's root.<<<<

I strongly disagree with this statemment. As developed at the OH Do Kwan under General Choi, it was not developed for sport. Further, ayone who knew General Choi will tell you that he disliked the sparring competition due to it's limitations.


>>>'sine wave' seems nothing more than exagurated sinking. only the exagurration itself is new. most Arts have the concept...but it's more of an integrated concept than an isolated practice. <<<

I agree the concept is not unique to TKD only the name.

>>>The reason ITF claims the old concept under a new name and economy is most likely a political one - to distinguish itself from WTF and to counter criticism of TKD's weak upper body game.<<<

ITF sparringis very similar to Kickboxing. Do you feel kickboxers have a weak upper body game as well?

As far as the name goes, General Choi gave descriptive english definitions to many things. Piercing, striking, Thrusting etc. was that political as well or were those simply an attempt at intuitive names?

>>>combine that with giving teaching licence to people with less than 4 years of training, kids teaching adults, etc,<<<

To be an instructor in the ITF requires a 4th Dan. Do you know of a lot of 4th Dans with 4 years of experience?



>>>Instead, 'sine wave' gets mystified with an air of 'for me to know and you to find out'. an air thats always been rampant in MA. some use it to hide behind.<<

If that has been your experience then that is unfortunate.

It seems we may agee that what you call "Sinking" and what gneral Choi called "Sine Wave" may be very similar concepts if not one in the same.

Top
#318293 - 02/06/07 10:17 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Quote:

!!! But you said he did!!!<<<




No, again a misunderstanding on your part based upon imperfect communication by the author vis a vis use of words. I related what he SAID, which was different then what he DID!



A play on words, your previous post said (and I quote it directly) "at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down but it looked like down up down." - so Im presuming your saying he couldnt have said "no, not up/ down but down/up/down!!!! - really!!

Then you said thats what he taught and simply that you took something different from it as thats how it looked to you despite him not actually saying so, which you then discussed with another and agreed you felt he didnt teach part of it and just simply showed it! So he also taught as he photographed it to for his book, the same way he taught his top students previous to this new version coming in fully! Perhaps he was trying to relay a new secret of TKD.. so secret he never told anyone and left the seminar guest to catch on or not as the case may be! Perhaps he relaxed a bit whilst demonstarting as he was tired!!!!!


Quote:

I have no problem with you voicing your opinion so long as you qualify it as based on second hand information



Quantify its 2nd hand information - you jest! The info is whats was taught from Gen Choi to his top studnets and downwards, as well as what he printed OVER and OVER and OVER in his books on numrous reprints and demonstated numerous times previously to the newer version coming in! Please dont belittle me with comments like that thanks!

Quote:

and issue a disclaimer that it differs from at least two people who have first hand experience with the author.



Issue a disclaimer.. jokes day is next week I think!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318294 - 02/06/07 06:33 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Dear Mr. Weis
With regards to the following quotes:

Quote:

the knee flexion of the boxer is the same body mechanics as sine wave.




What do you mean when you refer to the knee flexion of the boxer? If it is relation to bob & weave, then yes I suppose it could be classed as being slightly similar.
But in the delivery of a Jab, then no. To Deliver a Jab, a boxer generally goes through the following motions:
1. Load the rear leg. (Without any telegraphic motion whatsoever). Rear heel should be raised slightly off the floor.
2. Initiate Jab. (Jab begins it's initial travel).
3. Lift the lead foot approximately 1 inch from the floor as you power off the rear leg.
4. Land with the Jab (milliseconds before the front foot lands).
5. Drag the rear foot back into position (and load).
This represents the same forward motion as a sprinter on the blocks performs. i.e. No vertical telegraphing.

Quote:

It is also referred to in Bruce Lee's secret of the 1 inch punch.



Again No. Sorry. I can't agree with you there.

Regards

GriffyGriff
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

Top
#318295 - 02/06/07 06:53 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
GG,

I have to agree with you fully. I was always taught the kick off as a "sprinter" (with the same listed example that you made) to set up the jab/right cross.

And yes, I agree again, Bob and Weave is a different animal entirely for a different use and its function is not used as a foundational mechanical structure to help in explosive forward punching. Though timed bobbing and weaving can set up hooks and uppers.

I am unsure about how the given boxing example relates to the sine-wave as has been shown in this thread. The examples in the videos look nothing like the fucntional curriculum you would be given when taking a boxing class. Not only that, I am of the opinion that learning this structured movement would be detrimental in any more harder application when dealing with punching a la boxing. In any case, Griff, I am giving you two points and a smiley face on my sine-wave score card.

-B

Top
#318296 - 02/06/07 09:48 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>1. Load the rear leg. (Without any telegraphic motion whatsoever). Rear heel should be raised slightly off the floor.
2. Initiate Jab. (Jab begins it's initial travel).
3. Lift the lead foot approximately 1 inch from the floor as you power off the rear leg.
4. Land with the Jab (milliseconds before the front foot lands).
5. Drag the rear foot back into position (and load).
This represents the same forward motion as a sprinter on the blocks performs. i.e. No vertical telegraphing.
<<<

I have to confess that I really do not follow your explanation in it's entirety, particularly #5. I can only state that lifting the rear heel is an important part of certain sine wave motions, particularly non stepping walking stance punch which allows for "Loading" of the rear leg.

Top
#318297 - 02/07/07 05:01 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Guys, guys, all this ITF talk will scare away the WTF crowd and then they'll moan nobody writes threads for them...

On a slighlty more serious point, if anyone who didn't train personally with the General is at risk of doing incorrect sine-wave, that leads to the question of how much 'incorrect' ITF TKD must be floating around.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#318298 - 02/07/07 08:36 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>On a slighlty more serious point, if anyone who didn't train personally with the General is at risk of doing incorrect sine-wave, that leads to the question of how much 'incorrect' ITF TKD must be floating around. <<<

The issue is not limited to sine wave. I will ad hoever that from the mid 1980's to the time of General Choi's death the technical standard among up to date ITF practitioners changed remarkeably due to the instructor courses taught by Gneral Choi and others. Worldwide, the standard became much more uniform .Ask anyone who was at or competed in world Champs from the early 1980's thru 2001.

Top
#318299 - 02/07/07 11:09 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

On a slighlty more serious point, if anyone who didn't train personally with the General is at risk of doing incorrect sine-wave, that leads to the question of how much 'incorrect' ITF TKD must be floating around.




Yes, I would guess that there is a lot of incorrect ITF around. However, the bread & butter of the movement is pretty much standardized, as well as the patterns, as that was the Founder's signature. Therefore, so much effort was put into it. The accomplishment as evidenced by the quality displayed in the WCs is truly amazing, just as Master Weiss says.
Some of the areas lacking are the step sparring, semi-free sparring, HoSinSul, terminology, flying kicks & advanced techniques such as model sparring, foot technique sparring & pre-arranged free sparring. There has been a sort of pick & choose buffet style of following the syllabus. Usually focused on what the Founder emphasized in his seminars. From what I have experienced, many would refer to the text to look up movements of patterns to check or settle debates & little more. I think that the schools that empasized written tests & verbal examination on required knowledge, tended to have a closer or more fuller following of the syllabus. Sadly, many relied on national or local training guides or booklets, rather than going more fully to the syllabus itself.
However, there is a huge difference, from the earlier days to the end, in terms of standardization, due to the untiring effort of the Founder, who cirlced the globe numerous times teaching his Art.

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (02/07/07 11:45 AM)

Top
#318300 - 02/07/07 12:34 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Olympic style TKD is still right here, watching and luaghing at how the ITF can't get a consensus about what exactly they are doing...quoting and interpreting a dead masters literature and dvd's.

Seems to me everything is based off of General Choi, apparently noone eles new or got his art right other than him.

I am sure glad I practice an art were a vast amount of korean master got together and decided to put together. Not much of a wrong or right way of doing things, just a more effective way. Nothing shrouded in mystery, nothing to be interpreted nor can only one major source be found, nor does it depend on the vision and words of one man.

So far I hear argument for the sign wave but not much point for actually doing it, no proof, nor actual application. It wold be like teaching a student to perform it and if they don't understand they must do it anyways because it's what the rest of the flock does and it would be not against TKD but against Chon Hong style or even General Choi to say hey maybe this thing doesn't work and is not really needed.

I still my threads up, when someone posts on them I will respond. but thans for thinking about us trev.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#318301 - 02/07/07 05:37 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>> Not much of a wrong or right way of doing things, just a more effective way. <<<

LAst I heard the Kukkiwon conducted instructor courses and a few short years ago opened it up to Non Koreans. In fact I heard an amusing story where an attendee at the course told the instructor something like "that is not the Kukkiwon standard" to which the instructor replied "Who do you think I am?" apparently it was the person in charge of setting the standard for that particular item.

This is not umlike the ITF situation where people oftne believe they learned the standard but were in error. Reactions to being told they were in error varied from accepting the correction to being in denial that they were wrong - See next post.

Top
#318302 - 02/07/07 05:45 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
First and foremost I have had people correct my errors innumerable times. Even recently when teaching 4th Dan Patterns I learned of an error I was making. Even General Choi when asked a question about an upper Dan Pattern referred to the book which was unusual since he usually referred to pattern moves by number and exact specificatyions from memeory. Anyway after referring to the book he said "Book even better than General Choi"

Being near Chicago I get many ITF students from all over the world 95% plus techniques are in conformity. Once I corrected a very talented and knowledgeable 2nd dan from the Czech Republic. His response was that I was wrong, because it was different from what his instructor 8th Dan---(who outranked me) a personal student of General Choi taught him. I did not say anything. When I had a chance I copied the relevant pages from the text and handed it to him saying "Book written by 9th Dan, your instructor loses".
He was much more open to information after that.

Top
#318303 - 02/07/07 08:58 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Olympic style TKD is still right here, watching and luaghing at how the ITF can't get a consensus about what exactly they are doing...quoting and interpreting a dead masters literature and dvd's.



Awe Tek.. Im not ITF but I am Ch'ang Hon!! And its the lierature of the man who founded the Ch'ang Hon system.. the one the WTF used to work there's around!! Without it.. you would be here now say such things!

Quote:

Seems to me everything is based off of General Choi, apparently noone eles new or got his art right other than him.



Pretty much as he considered (one of) the main founders of the art everyone practices. Pretty much the same as Kano for Judo, Funakoshi for Shotokan etc etc. Its discussion around small points, not the whole art, after all, ITF hasnt changed their patterns 3 or 4 times since inception.. which would make a worthy debate wouldnt it! That said, its not good to accept everything without question!

Quote:

I am sure glad I practice an art were a vast amount of korean master got together and decided to put together.



You mean the South Korean Government told them to after General Choi went against it! Like I said, Im glad they all decided in a pattern set now.. it only took about 30 years

Quote:

Not much of a wrong or right way of doing things, just a more effective way.



Really! Hows that then? Sparring with hands down perhaps!

Quote:

Nothing shrouded in mystery, nothing to be interpreted nor can only one major source be found, nor does it depend on the vision and words of one man.



Point me to the applications to the WTF tul then please? All arts need clarification, updating or examination.. there is nothing wrong with that, and if there are no questions or shortfalls.. then either the art has it 100% right or its simply too shallow!

Quote:

So far I hear argument for the sign wave but not much point for actually doing it, no proof, nor actual application.



Nope, the discussion was about a change to it, not the sine-wave itself! And a few other related elements like when the change occured and terminology regarding it!

Quote:

It wold be like teaching a student to perform it and if they don't understand they must do it anyways because it's what the rest of the flock does and it would be not against TKD but against Chon Hong style or even General Choi to say hey maybe this thing doesn't work and is not really needed.



No Im afraid, as that is part of the reason we are discussing the change in it, I for one argue against parts of it!

Nothing against WTF'ers... just thought I'd pipe up LOL

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318304 - 02/07/07 08:59 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Even General Choi when asked a question about an upper Dan Pattern referred to the book which was unusual since he usually referred to pattern moves by number and exact specificatyions from memeory. Anyway after referring to the book he said "Book even better than General Choi"



Oh stop it Earl, you have just given me another point to add to my arguments LOL

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318305 - 02/07/07 09:04 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
The organization means nothing, the WTF or the kukkikwon isn't even on a persons mind. They set the rules for the sport, but not the schools. Sure the techniques are probably standard in all TKD schools which practice for Olympic style competition, but the curriculum is different in each and every school when it comes to forms, self defense, and breaking. If your school is self defense specific then you probably practice techniques from traditional karate a.k.a. Tang Soo Do, judo or hapkido.

Noone argues over politics. The WTF nor the kukkikwon or the TKD masters are looked to as religious figures much like many of the Chang Hon practitioners.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#318306 - 02/07/07 11:27 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

Quote:

Even General Choi when asked a question about an upper Dan Pattern referred to the book which was unusual since he usually referred to pattern moves by number and exact specificatyions from memeory. Anyway after referring to the book he said "Book even better than General Choi"



Oh stop it Earl, you have just given me another point to add to my arguments LOL

Stuart


<<<

OK I'll counter that with an error in the book. A question was sent to be via Willy Van Der Mortel from a student about the level of the Elbow strike as shown in the book for Yul Guk new techniques section. When we got to that point at the 2001 Nefoundland course I asked General Choi about the level of the strike. He responded in a manner which indicated he was surprised I would ask such a question. My response was "So sir, then the book is wrong? " He asked what I was talking about. I marked the spot in the book ahead of time. He confirmed the book was wrong, and told Master Lu to make a note of it so the ITF could issue a technical,correction bulletin as it had done in the past. For whatever reason, to my knowledge, no bulletin was ever issued. so you see, the book is not always right, let alone providing a clear explanation.

Top
#318307 - 02/08/07 12:32 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
TeK9:

Please don't take this as a knock. However, the reason we can have this arguement is because of the standardization of the ITF around the world. Most non-ITF schools I would imagine have more flexibilty to use their own syllabus. So we are engaging in a very technical aspect of 1 part of the ToP. I wouldn't think the WTF could do that, as it doesn't have the standardization to begin with. Not that either is better or not. It is just that an involved technical discussion of this level would not really be practicle for non-ITF students.

As far as the ToP goes & the 6 factors that make it up, I think it has sound scientific principles & concepts. As such, applying as many factors just makes common sense, that it would help increase power. All the focus on SW, which is just 1 part of 1 of 6 factors of the ToP, is not really that important. It is really more of an esoteric debate.

May I ask how you or your syllabus seeks to maximize power?

To me, when I use the 6 factors, I FEEL the difference. IMHO if you applied them correctly, you would FEEL the difference as well. However, that is theory. How it transfers over in action, of course depends on the nature of the action at hand. Think pistol target range & combat gun fight.

So it is not about what some dead guy thought, it is about science & applying it to help increase power. So maybe the science is wrong, but that is another arguement. I have never had someone I walked through the movements & motions, ever tell me that they did not think it FELT stronger.

Can you please explain how you seek to maximize your power during the execution of techniques?

Top
#318308 - 02/08/07 12:51 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

The organization means nothing, the WTF or the kukkikwon isn't even on a persons mind.



So are there many schools around that teach Kukki TKD that arnt part of the WTF then?

Quote:

They set the rules for the sport, but not the schools. Sure the techniques are probably standard in all TKD schools which practice for Olympic style competition, but the curriculum is different in each and every school when it comes to forms, self defense, and breaking. If your school is self defense specific then you probably practice techniques from traditional karate a.k.a. Tang Soo Do, judo or hapkido.



So theres no standard grading syllabus to adhere to then?

-- all the above are genuine questions btw!


Quote:

Noone argues over politics.



Well they should do, as the way the history of TKD is referenced by the WTF omits a major point - like the founding of Taekwon-do!! Perhaps you were correct and that no one argues with it as (and I quote] "because it's what the rest of the flock does " - politics play a role in WTF but like those of train, it rarely affects the students, just those at the top!

Quote:

The WTF nor the kukkikwon or the TKD masters are looked to as religious figures much like many of the Chang Hon practitioners.



I dont know about 'religous figures' but I do respect what the ITF accomplished in its lifeime before the Generals death (though I dont agree with everything they did during that time either) and I do respect the arts true pioneers who spent much of their adult lives living elseware to promote the art for little or no return, even laying the foundation for what you now do! Theres a big difference between respect and acknowledgement than religion or cult!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (02/08/07 12:53 AM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318309 - 02/08/07 12:56 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

OK I'll counter that with an error in the book... When we got to that point at the 2001 Nefoundland course I asked General Choi about the level of the strike. He responded in a manner which indicated he was surprised I would ask such a question. My response was "So sir, then the book is wrong? " He asked what I was talking about. I marked the spot in the book ahead of time. He confirmed the book was wrong, and told Master Lu to make a note of it so the ITF could issue a technical,correction bulletin as it had done in the past. For whatever reason, to my knowledge, no bulletin was ever issued. so you see, the book is not always right, let alone providing a clear explanation.




Nice counter (I like it lol)... has this bit ever been amended in reprints? Was the error a picture, a bit in type or both?

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318310 - 02/08/07 05:39 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I was at a seminar with gen Choi in 1994, where he said that he had stopped researching TKD and it was upto his higher grades to continue the research.

So, who ok's the research now?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#318311 - 02/08/07 06:08 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Heck if I know, some of the people discussing the issues here are teachers themselves, and they keep going back to what the general said, meant, and tried to do. If your an instructor I would think you would present your students with all sides of the technique and let them make up their own minds. Unless you want cult like thinking, raise no questions, seek no other sources.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#318312 - 02/08/07 08:05 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>

Nice counter (I like it lol)... has this bit ever been amended in reprints? Was the error a picture, a bit in type or both?<<<

It is a text error regarding the level of the technique being at the Attacker's Solar plexus level when it should read shoulder level. Other uncorrected errors include inconssitent stance directions in Moon Moowhich I raised on another forum, poor descriptions such as the pulling hands in Tong Il Turning kick directions in So San and Se Jong

Top
#318313 - 02/08/07 09:35 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

I was at a seminar with gen Choi in 1994, where he said that he had stopped researching TKD and it was upto his higher grades to continue the research.




That is something I have brought up before in an article I did and a certain piece of literature I cant mention .. though you know the old saying "Never say Never"!!

Quote:

If your an instructor I would think you would present your students with all sides of the technique and let them make up their own minds. Unless you want cult like thinking, raise no questions, seek no other sources.



There is a difference between keeping students informed of variations and allowing an open class! Would a WTF school allow a student to practice the older forms exclusive of the ones that the school teaches?

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318314 - 02/08/07 09:36 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

It is a text error regarding the level of the technique being at the Attacker's Solar plexus level when it should read shoulder level.



And does it still remain uncorrected?

Though in relation to the subject at hand, this is an error, the other (for whatever reason) an omision!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318315 - 02/08/07 04:57 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: TeK9]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

Heck if I know, some of the people discussing the issues here are teachers themselves, and they keep going back to what the general said, meant, and tried to do. If your an instructor I would think you would present your students with all sides of the technique and let them make up their own minds. Unless you want cult like thinking, raise no questions, seek no other sources.




To the contrary, as an ITF Instructor I feel the primary lesson is to teach the ITF standard. That way any ITF student can step into my gym and fit right in. Vince De John used to post here regularly. He visited my gym once and I had students perform a pattern for him. When they finished I told him that they had learned their patterns in different places. One from me in Chicago, omne a french Canadian, one from Conneticut, one from Siberia , and one from Poland. He was unable to see that they were from different gyms let alone different parts of the world.

This does not mean we do not teach stuff in addittion to the ITF nmmaterial as well. We do, and have lots of fun.

Top
#318316 - 02/08/07 05:01 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>
It is a text error regarding the level of the technique being at the Attacker's Solar plexus level when it should read shoulder level.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And does it still remain uncorrected?<<<

I have not seen any later volumes correcting this or the other things mentioned.

Top
#318317 - 02/09/07 10:13 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was at a seminar with gen Choi in 1994, where he said that he had stopped researching TKD and it was upto his higher grades to continue the research.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That is something I have brought up before in an article I did and a certain piece of literature I cant mention .. though you know the old saying "Never say Never"!!




Sounds mysterious and intriguing.

pray, tell more...
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#318318 - 02/09/07 11:42 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

I was at a seminar with gen Choi in 1994, where he said that he had stopped researching TKD and it was upto his higher grades to continue the research.

So, who ok's the research now?


<<<

Each organization has a technical committee.

Top
#318319 - 02/10/07 02:53 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
What is their criteria for allowing a certain type of development? is it based on whether it fits in with the original 'teachings' of TKD?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#318320 - 02/10/07 07:37 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:



Sounds mysterious and intriguing.

pray, tell more...




Oh, its not that intriguing except that he confirmed it in an interview in The Times conducted in 1999, saying that he finished his pattern development in 1983!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

Top
#318321 - 02/12/07 03:38 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
GizmoTKD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Lublin, Poland
General Choi sine wave

Here's a clip from General Choi's seminar in Poland where he demonstrates sine wave.
_________________________
"Dan" Freestyle Taekwondo & Kickboxing ;-)

Top
#318322 - 02/18/07 04:50 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GizmoTKD]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
were you there, Piotrek?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#318323 - 02/20/07 03:32 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
GizmoTKD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 16
Loc: Lublin, Poland
No. I only had an opportunity to interview General Choi during one of his visits to Poland, but never trained under him.
_________________________
"Dan" Freestyle Taekwondo & Kickboxing ;-)

Top
#318324 - 02/20/07 08:52 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GizmoTKD]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Cool. Do you have a translation/copy of the interview?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#318325 - 02/20/07 09:13 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Thanks for that clip, Gizmo.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
Page 1 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Self Defense
Offering stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and other self defense products not available in stores.

Pepper Spray
Online distributor of self defense supplies like videos, stun guns, Tasers and more.

Spy Cameras
Surveillance, Hidden Cameras, Nanny Cams, Digital Recorders, Spy Equipment, Pocket DVR's and more

Stun Gun
Wholesale Directlhy to the Public! Stun gun and Taser Guns and personal protection products. Keep your loved ones at home safe!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga