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#318289 - 02/06/07 08:15 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>

Having studied under some of General Choi's most knowledgeable students for 18 years and studied the book thoroughly


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So have others that agree on my POV! And the book, as I keep saying says different, so it makes that a mute point!<<<<

Again, apparently my point was missed. The people to whom you refer apparently shared in my errors having only studied with top students and the book. These errors were not realized until I studied directly with General Choi.

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#318290 - 02/06/07 08:20 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: StuartA]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again your statement is wrong. In person demonstrations did not show it this way.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


!!! But you said he did!!!<<<

No, again a misunderstanding on your part based upon imperfect communication by the author vis a vis use of words. I related what he SAID, which was different then what he DID!

I have no problem with you voicing your opinion so long as you qualify it as based on second hand information and your reading of the book and issue a disclaimer that it differs from at least two people who have first hand experience with the author.

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#318291 - 02/06/07 08:24 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: butterfly]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>I hold by my original statements that the sine-wave motion that you describe are not necessary for good punching and thus must be considered as a characteristic of one particular style that does not necessarily boost technical ability in striking.<<<

Well then we do agree to disagee in that the knee flexion of the boxer is the same body mechanis as sine wave. It is also referred to in Bruce Lee's secret of the 1 inch punch. It can also be found elsewhere in theories like kinetic linking. Is it perhaps exagerated to a degree? Yes, many things in patterns are such as audible breathing. Aside from developing ggod habits that will translate to a combat situation, it helps the observer determine that you are performing correctly.

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#318292 - 02/06/07 08:35 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: Ed_Morris]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>Quote:

check your history, TKD was specifically designed for sport using Karate as it's root.<<<<

I strongly disagree with this statemment. As developed at the OH Do Kwan under General Choi, it was not developed for sport. Further, ayone who knew General Choi will tell you that he disliked the sparring competition due to it's limitations.


>>>'sine wave' seems nothing more than exagurated sinking. only the exagurration itself is new. most Arts have the concept...but it's more of an integrated concept than an isolated practice. <<<

I agree the concept is not unique to TKD only the name.

>>>The reason ITF claims the old concept under a new name and economy is most likely a political one - to distinguish itself from WTF and to counter criticism of TKD's weak upper body game.<<<

ITF sparringis very similar to Kickboxing. Do you feel kickboxers have a weak upper body game as well?

As far as the name goes, General Choi gave descriptive english definitions to many things. Piercing, striking, Thrusting etc. was that political as well or were those simply an attempt at intuitive names?

>>>combine that with giving teaching licence to people with less than 4 years of training, kids teaching adults, etc,<<<

To be an instructor in the ITF requires a 4th Dan. Do you know of a lot of 4th Dans with 4 years of experience?



>>>Instead, 'sine wave' gets mystified with an air of 'for me to know and you to find out'. an air thats always been rampant in MA. some use it to hide behind.<<

If that has been your experience then that is unfortunate.

It seems we may agee that what you call "Sinking" and what gneral Choi called "Sine Wave" may be very similar concepts if not one in the same.

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#318293 - 02/06/07 10:17 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Quote:

!!! But you said he did!!!<<<




No, again a misunderstanding on your part based upon imperfect communication by the author vis a vis use of words. I related what he SAID, which was different then what he DID!



A play on words, your previous post said (and I quote it directly) "at the 1990 course with the General He taught Up/down but it looked like down up down." - so Im presuming your saying he couldnt have said "no, not up/ down but down/up/down!!!! - really!!

Then you said thats what he taught and simply that you took something different from it as thats how it looked to you despite him not actually saying so, which you then discussed with another and agreed you felt he didnt teach part of it and just simply showed it! So he also taught as he photographed it to for his book, the same way he taught his top students previous to this new version coming in fully! Perhaps he was trying to relay a new secret of TKD.. so secret he never told anyone and left the seminar guest to catch on or not as the case may be! Perhaps he relaxed a bit whilst demonstarting as he was tired!!!!!


Quote:

I have no problem with you voicing your opinion so long as you qualify it as based on second hand information



Quantify its 2nd hand information - you jest! The info is whats was taught from Gen Choi to his top studnets and downwards, as well as what he printed OVER and OVER and OVER in his books on numrous reprints and demonstated numerous times previously to the newer version coming in! Please dont belittle me with comments like that thanks!

Quote:

and issue a disclaimer that it differs from at least two people who have first hand experience with the author.



Issue a disclaimer.. jokes day is next week I think!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#318294 - 02/06/07 06:33 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Dear Mr. Weis
With regards to the following quotes:

Quote:

the knee flexion of the boxer is the same body mechanics as sine wave.




What do you mean when you refer to the knee flexion of the boxer? If it is relation to bob & weave, then yes I suppose it could be classed as being slightly similar.
But in the delivery of a Jab, then no. To Deliver a Jab, a boxer generally goes through the following motions:
1. Load the rear leg. (Without any telegraphic motion whatsoever). Rear heel should be raised slightly off the floor.
2. Initiate Jab. (Jab begins it's initial travel).
3. Lift the lead foot approximately 1 inch from the floor as you power off the rear leg.
4. Land with the Jab (milliseconds before the front foot lands).
5. Drag the rear foot back into position (and load).
This represents the same forward motion as a sprinter on the blocks performs. i.e. No vertical telegraphing.

Quote:

It is also referred to in Bruce Lee's secret of the 1 inch punch.



Again No. Sorry. I can't agree with you there.

Regards

GriffyGriff
_________________________
I am NOT homophobic... I am NOT afraid of my own house!

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#318295 - 02/06/07 06:53 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
GG,

I have to agree with you fully. I was always taught the kick off as a "sprinter" (with the same listed example that you made) to set up the jab/right cross.

And yes, I agree again, Bob and Weave is a different animal entirely for a different use and its function is not used as a foundational mechanical structure to help in explosive forward punching. Though timed bobbing and weaving can set up hooks and uppers.

I am unsure about how the given boxing example relates to the sine-wave as has been shown in this thread. The examples in the videos look nothing like the fucntional curriculum you would be given when taking a boxing class. Not only that, I am of the opinion that learning this structured movement would be detrimental in any more harder application when dealing with punching a la boxing. In any case, Griff, I am giving you two points and a smiley face on my sine-wave score card.

-B

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#318296 - 02/06/07 09:48 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>1. Load the rear leg. (Without any telegraphic motion whatsoever). Rear heel should be raised slightly off the floor.
2. Initiate Jab. (Jab begins it's initial travel).
3. Lift the lead foot approximately 1 inch from the floor as you power off the rear leg.
4. Land with the Jab (milliseconds before the front foot lands).
5. Drag the rear foot back into position (and load).
This represents the same forward motion as a sprinter on the blocks performs. i.e. No vertical telegraphing.
<<<

I have to confess that I really do not follow your explanation in it's entirety, particularly #5. I can only state that lifting the rear heel is an important part of certain sine wave motions, particularly non stepping walking stance punch which allows for "Loading" of the rear leg.

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#318297 - 02/07/07 05:01 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Guys, guys, all this ITF talk will scare away the WTF crowd and then they'll moan nobody writes threads for them...

On a slighlty more serious point, if anyone who didn't train personally with the General is at risk of doing incorrect sine-wave, that leads to the question of how much 'incorrect' ITF TKD must be floating around.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#318298 - 02/07/07 08:36 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: trevek]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
>>>On a slighlty more serious point, if anyone who didn't train personally with the General is at risk of doing incorrect sine-wave, that leads to the question of how much 'incorrect' ITF TKD must be floating around. <<<

The issue is not limited to sine wave. I will ad hoever that from the mid 1980's to the time of General Choi's death the technical standard among up to date ITF practitioners changed remarkeably due to the instructor courses taught by Gneral Choi and others. Worldwide, the standard became much more uniform .Ask anyone who was at or competed in world Champs from the early 1980's thru 2001.

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