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#318239 - 01/26/07 09:20 AM ITF TKD Sine-Wave
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
My quesions are simple (to start with)......
1. When was the Sine-Wave type of movement introduced into ITF TKD?
2. By the General? If so, how old was he at the time?
3. What was the reason for doing this? Because essentially by adopting the Sine-Wave, most of the starting arm positions have been altered.

That should be enough to keep you going...
Please remember, try to stick to the topic.

Thanks
GriffyGriff
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#318240 - 01/26/07 10:56 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
RazorFoot Offline
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Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...part=1&vc=1

This thread may have some of the info you are looking for.
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#318241 - 01/26/07 12:39 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

My quesions are simple (to start with)......
1. When was the Sine-Wave type of movement introduced into ITF TKD?
2. By the General? If so, how old was he at the time?
3. What was the reason for doing this? Because essentially by adopting the Sine-Wave, most of the starting arm positions have been altered.

That should be enough to keep you going...
Please remember, try to stick to the topic.

Thanks
GriffyGriff


<<<<<

The link gives exhaustive info, but briefly:
1. The term does not appear until the encyclopedia which bears a publication date of 1980 or 1981. However, earlier books referred to knee spring and keeping the knees flexed. In the 1970's we called it "Spring Style", so for the most part the term sine wave was merely a refinement of terminology already in use.
2. Yes, General Choi was the author of the book, It is unknown if someone helped him decide upon this term. The publication date would put General Choi's age at about 60. However there is typicaly quite a lag from authoring something to publication. So there may have been a gap of a year or more from coining the term to publication.
3. The reason was to formulate a description for his idea of employing the knee flexion to assist with generating power in hand techniques. This concept was not new at the time as his works already includeed it. Nor is or was the concept unique to TKD or Gneral Choi's system. It can be found in many arts from Western Style boxing to Bruce Lees 1 inch punch description as well as the idea of Kinetic Linking found in the discovery Channels Xtreme Martial Arts show. It differntiates TKD from the "Level Headed" motion found in many Karate systems.

Frankly, I have no idea what you are referring to vis a vis sine wave altering hand positions.

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#318242 - 01/26/07 05:07 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
GriffyGriff Offline
Good Egg,
Member

Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Hi Earl.
It may have been just my personal experience, but watching guys go through Gunan Sogi, Najundae Bakat Makgi, using the Sine-Wave style. They would lower their hands to waist level in mid movement then attempt to get the impact point on the finalised drop step (Both arms would not return to shoulder level start position). In the style I am used to, we start with both arms at shoulder level (Making a cross with the forearms). Then hip twist and power the block in at the same time.
did that make sense?

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#318243 - 01/28/07 01:50 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: EarlWeiss]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I'm interested in the dates. I began training with TAGB (TKD Assoc of Great Britain)in the early 1990's. This assoc was a major break-away from Mr Rhee Ki Ha's UKTA in early 1980's. These were some of the leading British ITF practitioners at the time.

In TAGB we were taught waist-twist.

When my instructor left TAGB (another break-away) to form GTI our new assoc considered rejoining ITF. The senior instructors had meetings with Gen Choi and there were a series of workshops and seminars. As a lower rank (red-tag)I attended a seminar with the General where he demonstarted sine-wave and explained what it was. this was around 1994. Until then we'd never seen it, even from our seniors.
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#318244 - 01/28/07 09:05 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

My quesions are simple (to start with)......
1. When was the Sine-Wave type of movement introduced into ITF TKD?



For the Uk at least, it was first mentioned in 1983 (in Derby).. but not instituted fully until the 90's.. though that is not the same sine-wave that you see the ITF doing now (see link below)

Quote:

3. What was the reason for doing this?



The reason given or the reason lots of other people believe!! see: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/ARTICLES_Patterns_Sinewave.html and make your own mind up! The reason I say that is because opinion is divided.. I (and others) here believe one thing, whilst others believe another and argue its worth.. so each to his own really! On top of that, theres a non-exaggerated version and a vastly over exaggerated version, plus the original version!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (01/28/07 09:07 PM)
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#318245 - 01/29/07 10:53 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
Quote:

Hi Earl.
It may have been just my personal experience, but watching guys go through Gunan Sogi, Najundae Bakat Makgi, using the Sine-Wave style. They would lower their hands to waist level in mid movement then attempt to get the impact point on the finalised drop step (Both arms would not return to shoulder level start position). In the style I am used to, we start with both arms at shoulder level (Making a cross with the forearms). Then hip twist and power the block in at the same time.
did that make sense?


<<<

Do you have a strong Chung Do Kwan Lineage? This is similar to how I was first taught when we were still affiliated with Han Cha Kyo.

Basicaly, the chamber position is technique specific and not sine wave specific. This highlights an example of how General Choi was purpose specific concerning technical parameters. He always emphasized that the #1 training secret was to know the purpose of the move (This differs from what is listed as #1 in his book. ) Any way one recurring theme was to not unduly expose vital spots with chamber positions. As such the Low outer forear walking stance block you reference (while not having specifics in the book I can find) chambers at the solar plexus level It finishes with the elbow bent 25 degreees and is meant to imapct the top / tibia of the leg (Or back forearm if someone were doing a kneeling puunch for example, ) and the left block is used to protect the left lower abdomen, finishing with the thumb knuckle side of the fist at the centerline (Old style had fist over the knee. Again this position keeps vital areas covered. )vica versa for right side. The low Knifehand block chammbers at the floating rib, finishing with a 15 degreee elbow bend meant to strike the side of the attacking limb. The different chambers result in more of a downward motion for the forearm and more side to side for the knifehand. I could not find the text reference for starting positions, but they were well covered at instructor courses.

Hope this helps.

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#318246 - 02/01/07 01:55 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: GriffyGriff]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

1. When was the Sine-Wave type of movement introduced into ITF TKD?
2. By the General? If so, how old was he at the time?
3. What was the reason for doing this? Because essentially by adopting the Sine-Wave, most of the starting arm positions have been altered. GriffyGriff




1- SW, 1st called knee spring was introduced as early as 1967 in the instructor courses taught by the ITF Chief Instructor back then. Knee spring appears in a later edition of the 1972 text. The term SW appears in the 1st edition of the 15 Volume Encylopedia dated 1983, but 1st printed in 1985. So may argue that knee spring was not SW, as it was not as pronounced as it is now. However, it appears from my research that it was always relax, which caused you to go down & then up - down.

2- Ambassador Choi was born in 1918, so depending on which year you use, one can calculate the age. He along with his top instructors played a role in putting together the syllabus. He as the Founder, would be credited.

3- The chambers or previous positions you explain, seem like older Korean Karate type of movement. I was taught at first, 1970s that same way you described. I was corrected to conform the the ITF standard in the 1980s. I can not speak to the chambers or previous positions corresponding to the SW evolution, as all or most Taekwon-Do techniques have evolved over the years.

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#318247 - 02/01/07 02:10 AM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
When it comes to Sine Wave & how it is applied, I thought I would add this. After doing some more study, I found some direction given by ITF Taekwon-Do Founder, Choi Hong Hi. He is talking about formal fundamental exercises & comparing those methods to actual combat. The example he uses in this instance is punching from the hip. However, the principle or message can be applied to most fundamental exercises:
“The student of Taekwon-Do is expected to meet any attack from any directions; furthermore, the fist does not necessarily have to be delivered always from the hip to the target. TIME may not permit you to do so in an actual situation; therefore it is better to train in the various ways of punching from any position, provided one masters the fundamental methods mentioned above, visualizing a changing situation in relation to target distance, target opportunity, and so on”.

I think this compliments the idea I was trying to relay using my gun shooting analogy on a previous SW thread.

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#318248 - 02/02/07 12:07 PM Re: ITF TKD Sine-Wave [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

The term does not appear until the encyclopedia which bears a publication date of 1980 or 1981. However, earlier books referred to knee spring and keeping the knees flexed. In the 1970's we called it "Spring Style", so for the most part the term sine wave was merely a refinement of terminology already in use.



-- Sorry, but I (as you know) disagree and feel its simply a way to make all the changes seem more correct and justify them, instead of accepting the real reasons things were instituted!

Quote:

1- SW, 1st called knee spring was introduced as early as 1967 in the instructor courses taught by the ITF Chief Instructor back then. Knee spring appears in a later edition of the 1972 text. The term SW appears in the 1st edition of the 15 Volume Encylopedia dated 1983, but 1st printed in 1985. So may argue that knee spring was not SW, as it was not as pronounced as it is now. However, it appears from my research that it was always relax, which caused you to go down & then up - down.




As ITFUnity knows, I am one of the ones that strongly disagrees with this - SW was never called knee spring, not then and not now! When it was introduced (the original up/down version) it was never said to replace knee spring but accompany it - simply SW when moving, knee spring when not!!

Firstly, knee spring is not sine wave and was not an earlier precusor to it. Just because the knee bends when you do the 'modern' sine wave of down/up/down it is performed in opposition to a knee spring! The bending of the knee in modern sine-wave is simply a result in movement (ie. the knee must bend when you move), the knee spring was a sharp movement, executed the same time as a technique - to compliment it and add power to it!

Secondly, at least in the UK, the term 'sine wave' was not mentioned until 1983 and this was in relation to a simple and natural up and down motion. It has pictures of this in the manuals and again, it is not related to knee spring.
see: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/sw1_311x400.jpg
And: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/sw2_310x400.jpg
Also: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/sw4_311x400.jpg
-- you will note on all the pictures, there is no down movement before the up movement - an extra photo would have showed it if it was indeed that was the original idea. Further more, the locked knee of the back leg is simply a result of solidifying your stance.. it is not thust back like a normal knee spring - hence they are different!

Thirdly, the newer sine-wave was only pushed in the late 90's when the ITF had some political issues and decided to try to force people to join them by doing things differently and claiming theres was the only way, thus true TKD, when in fact for years they had been teaching it a different way. It was a political move!

Finally, some believe that the sine wave allows flow as its based ona Taoist theory(!) of continuity! If correct, the modern version does not relay this as it is not continious!

You guys know that I respect your knowledge, but simply cannot accept the fairy tale that sine-wave (especailly the modern down/up/down version)was always there!

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (02/02/07 12:10 PM)
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