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#318234 - 08/27/08 12:13 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: JAMJTX]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
I came back to edit my reply but could not.
What I meant by "neither" was that the ideas of KATA and BUNKAI came about together.

People mistakenly think of BUNKAI as APPLICATIONS. This is not necessarily so. BUNKAI is a verb not a noun. It means to "pick apart", "analyse" or perhaps "dissect"

You can not pick aprt or anlyze a kata until after the kata is created.

If you analyze the kata, you will also find more than just applications. Some kata have movements designed to develop balance, teach breathing and other supplemental skills.

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#318235 - 08/27/08 07:23 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: JAMJTX]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You are right - but most people have understood the question to be: "Which came first, kata or the techniques/combinations that make up kata".

Breathing and "supplemental" skills are often taught as single moves or short combinations - for example "qi gong".

On the other hand, each move in a taiji form is a "qi gong"...

In other words, you don't need a long sequence which strings together different techniques for those techniques to exist independently.

In my opinion it's clear the techniques came first, then they were "packaged" into sequences for ease of remembering/teaching/categorisation, practise in a dynamic/flowing environment (transition from one technique to another) etc.
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#318236 - 08/27/08 09:38 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
The answer seems obvious:

#1

Sesan kata, goju ryu karate, by Higaonna sensei http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXNjK_HuV1Y

Sesan bunkai, goju ryu karate, by Higaonna sensei http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt6UaofHJow

Or #2

Seifa Bunkais by Higaonna http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJyZYBc5Wo4
Seifa kata by Higaonna http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKj5drvygec

Does it really matter? Nope! Just practice your backside off....
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#318237 - 08/28/08 12:22 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Yugen83 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 110
Loc: Southern Maryland
Quote:

You are right - but most people have understood the question to be: "Which came first, kata or the techniques/combinations that make up kata".

Breathing and "supplemental" skills are often taught as single moves or short combinations - for example "qi gong".

On the other hand, each move in a taiji form is a "qi gong"...

In other words, you don't need a long sequence which strings together different techniques for those techniques to exist independently.

In my opinion it's clear the techniques came first, then they were "packaged" into sequences for ease of remembering/teaching/categorisation, practise in a dynamic/flowing environment (transition from one technique to another) etc.




Ha, I see what you are saying, and it makes perfect sense. Taking it further, you could say that techs and sequences were "packaged" into styles for better rememberance of a teacher's lessons or personal way of doing things, as well. What I was originally getting at was: take crane style, someone watched the crane and mimicked its movements in an effort to try to capture the essence and behavior of the crane. A "form" was born from this process, and the movements were applied to a combat situation which produced possible responses to situations, attacks, etc. There is more than just fighting applications in the form which would suggest that the form was not created merely for fighting purposes, but that the fighting applications came as a result of taking the form and applying it to fighting situations. Kind of a process of discovery. I think a good point was made that we don't really know the original applications to the techs found in the kata, so we are indeed retrofitting them or at least reinterpreting them and giving them our own little spin.
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#318238 - 08/28/08 08:30 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: Yugen83]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

What I was originally getting at was: take crane style, someone watched the crane and mimicked its movements in an effort to try to capture the essence and behavior of the crane. A "form" was born from this process, and the movements were applied to a combat situation which produced possible responses to situations, attacks, etc. There is more than just fighting applications in the form which would suggest that the form was not created merely for fighting purposes, but that the fighting applications came as a result of taking the form and applying it to fighting situations. Kind of a process of discovery. I think a good point was made that we don't really know the original applications to the techs found in the kata, so we are indeed retrofitting them or at least reinterpreting them and giving them our own little spin.




I agree - particular with the last part. Well said!
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