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#318204 - 01/27/07 07:09 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: CVV]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Yes I agree with you totally too. I think you felt as though my use of "self-preservation" meant only fighting techs. Au contraire, self-preservation also entails the health aspects and other supplementary benefits of good kata training. They also serve to "preserve" ones self. Peace and good take...

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#318205 - 01/27/07 08:33 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: Unsu]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Unsu:

I thought I said that already

Jeff

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#318206 - 01/27/07 09:36 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: harlan]
haze Offline
Dragon

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Syracuse NY USA
Has to be bunkai, How in the world would you create a kata and then try to figure out how you could use the moves? As stated previously in this thread, kata is a packaged version of various techniques. It is just a way to organize things into a way that can be used to pass the techniques on. Also a way to practice techiques with out a partner.
_________________________
David

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#318207 - 01/28/07 12:42 AM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: Ronin1966]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

Hello Harlan:

The application had to come first... here's why.

The movements were not invented in a vaccum. Invented strictly to tell the next person shown "...here's how I stopped him/her..." and here are the movements I used...

When it becomes a teaching tool.... examining the movements with 5, 20, 50, 10,000 other people, sizes, temperments, refinements, modifications, nuances will likely be found...

Do not believe the movements came first as why would they be invented ?

Jeff




You said what I said first? Really? Where? Anyway I didn't even read all of the other responses, just the initial question and some of the responses. I think with the exception of Victor we all pretty much said the same thing anyway. So I see what you're saying.

I think Victor is saying that the concept of bunkai was really emphasized once American servicemen started learning karate on Okinawa in the 1960s and 1970s. Many only had a few years to train and needed to know why they were doing what they were doing so that they could convey that message to future students. The applications have always been there. Those old Shotokan clips showed that. Maybe Americans have less patience or creativity or both, and wanted concrete answers to pseudo-esoteric training right then.

Nowadays people have gone bunkai crazy, especially in Europe. If you do the kata, the drills, hojo undo, the kihon waza and spar with reasonable contact and resistance for many years, then these things are revealed without the emphasis on bunkai. There often is no cut-and-dry answer for why kata is the way it is. It just works if you are doing the forms in as pure and logical method as possible. Exaggerated movements, unsound principles, not understanding that kata and fighting are different things, makes kata training almost useless. That is the way that many karate-ka approached kata training until recently when folks like me started questioning the methods of so-called karate types. This includes everyone from Elvis to Fred Ettish.

That's why John Kogas and the many of the RBSD and MMAs types say what they say about classical training. They have no proof that karate really works, in their opinion. It's a valid opinion. Most karate-ka couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, especially if they had to use their karate training to do so. I do know that.

But what these flavor-of-the-month martial sports types fail to recognize is that Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, Benny Urquidez, Gene LeBell, Dan Inosanto and even Bruce Lee were classically trained. There are many more to add to that list, but I don't have all night to prove I'm right again . Nowadays arguably the best striker in "MMA" is Chuck Liddell a Koeikan Karate and Hawaiian Kempo black belt. They always point to his wrestling experience, but he would tell you himself the training he had sparring in those "karate" styles made him the striker he is today (along with the unorganized neighborhood boxing matches he partook in as a kid).

Do these combat sports guys realize that even the Gracies are classically trained? Do they really think that all these journeyman wrestlers didn't have to learn kickboxing which came from classical arts like Muay Boran and Okinawan karate kumite in order not to punch like some caveman or little girl?

Not a one of them will ever equal a Chuck Norris or Joe Lewis, because they don't have kata in their repertoire, and they don't have BB level traditional training under their belt. They strive for fame and success, dedicate a lot of their time to one thing, RBSD and/or MMAs, and they still are no more than journeyman with unoriginal concepts, mid-level knowledge, excessive training and what I call "jockriderosis". They will never be Bruce or Royce because people like Bruce had a good combo of the old and new.

Oh boy, sorry for the rant, but I despise shortsighted know-it-alls who know nothing of true martial ARTS.

KATA, KATA, KATA!!!

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#318208 - 01/28/07 02:47 AM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: Unsu]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Bryan you need to cool it with the direct negative comments to other forum members please,

make your points politely or not at all please.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#318209 - 01/29/07 09:32 AM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: Ed_Morris]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

...got anything more difficult harlan?




Yeah, which came first, the bull or the BS.
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#318210 - 01/29/07 09:55 AM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: haze]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Has to be bunkai, How in the world would you create a kata and then try to figure out how you could use the moves?




...by watching different animals fighting and imitating the moves (primeval kata?) and THEN figure out how those killing moves can be used on other humans? So the "moves" came first?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#318211 - 01/29/07 09:56 AM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: ButterflyPalm]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Hmmm...know any animals that perform armbars? Better yet...I only see 'horse' stances in kata. Where do the kicks come in?

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#318212 - 01/29/07 02:35 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: harlan]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Bunkai becuase without practical and directly app;icable combat techniques you have no basis around which to develope kata, and the movements become meaningless; nothing more than a dance. It is an irrefutable fact that you can develope effective fighting skills without kata. Here look at this "Wow, this is an interesting and cool looking arm movement, I think I'll throw it in, it must be good for osmething practical."
Didn't happen, or else Kata would be called Japanese Ballet.


Edited by Stormdragon (01/29/07 02:37 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#318213 - 01/29/07 04:18 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: Stormdragon]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
taken literally Victor is 'right' on this one, kata before bunkai (the analysis of kata).

I guess it leads to the question what is kata then, my off the cuff awnser is as follows -

kata, is the method chosen by a past masters of karate to deliver the principles of their fighting art to the next generation, and it takes a life time to unfold all its secrets.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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