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#318194 - 01/26/07 11:52 AM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: student_of_life]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Oh...I was bored and thought it would be nice to watch a fight. However, it being Friday I suspect most folks won't rise to the bait.

Quote:


harlen, what posessed you to start this??

yours in life



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#318195 - 01/26/07 03:01 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Victor was trying to be funny by splitting hairs. Stick to Martial Arts Victor...you ain't no comedian. lol

seriously, what Victor meant is that the terms 'bunkai' and 'oyo' are new....therefore 'kata' is older. har har

my answer is only valid to those who believe kata is a training tool for learning self-defense principles. since it's a learning tool kata is likely to have been created by a teacher who taught those principles.

the principles came first from trial and error. kata is an artistic sculpturing of those principles. formed, reformed and altered however slightly or majorly thru each generation the form passes hand.


the answer to the chicken-egg question: the egg came first.

since a full grown chicken has always been a chicken - it's assumed they were born that way - A chicken. that includes when that Chicken was still in it's egg.

The thing that laid that egg (the first chicken's parents), might have been close to chickens....but not 100% chicken.
but...

a near chicken + a near chicken + natural occurance of randomly mutatable genes = a possible chicken egg.

easy. got anything more difficult harlan?

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#318196 - 01/26/07 03:09 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Obviously bunkai came first because no one in their right mind would have intentionally come up with KATA first.

Probably what happened was they discovered some bit of truth, but then had to organize it, disguise it and catagorize it. Plus they realized that kata was an excellent way to pull the wool over their students eyes so they could keep them confused for longer periods of time. Thus, they could keep their students coming BACK longer without them actually learning very much at all.

Keeping them confused and coming back ensured that the "masters" would eat well and often.


-John


Edited by JKogas (01/26/07 04:07 PM)

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#318197 - 01/26/07 03:16 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: JKogas]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
sounds reasonable. certainly as reasonable as kata coming from war dance or straight off a battlefield.

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#318198 - 01/26/07 04:31 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: harlan]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Harlan:

The application had to come first... here's why.

The movements were not invented in a vaccum. Invented strictly to tell the next person shown "...here's how I stopped him/her..." and here are the movements I used...

When it becomes a teaching tool.... examining the movements with 5, 20, 50, 10,000 other people, sizes, temperments, refinements, modifications, nuances will likely be found...

Do not believe the movements came first as why would they be invented ?

Jeff

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#318199 - 01/26/07 06:36 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: BrianS]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

I disagree.

We are talking about the techniques not the exact term bunkai, right?

The techniques were developed first and then later the kata was formed as a way to pass these techniques along, in my opinion.




Yeah, Brian makes sense. I agree with him. Kata were formed (no pun intended) in order to convey the generalities of the actual self-preservation techniques. They are like an outline to a thesis, or table of contents in a book. The details are revealed after ones mind/body has thoroughly studied the "text" and comprehended the specifics through effective, repetitive action and thought.

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#318200 - 01/27/07 12:33 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: Unsu]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Not all kata are just for remebering techniques.
Take sanchin kata(goju-ryu). The techniques used are not the issue in that kata but it is a basic training kata for understanding better the 3 conflicts in executing technique and how to overcome these conflicts and have them focused into the same perspective.
We do not teach bunkai for sanchin kata.

As to origin of martial dance. Interesting to know that in Okinawan dance, same fist formations as in karate is found. Probably karate influenced the dance. And even in their cultural events, like tegumi (wrestling) or thug of war, or their stage plays, karate/kobudo is present.

But for most of the classical kata, I suspect that they have an origin in training technique, so probably build from application. But kata's primary goal is not always specific technique. Most times it is just principle, principle of moving, principle of breathing, principle of rooting.

From what I understand of the history, is that most karateka started training somewhere between 12 - 15 years old. Starting with makiwara and basic stepping next to basic kata sanchin or naifanchin or happoren, and partner drils in yakusoku kumite. After some years of this they started with classical kata (sesan, patsai, useichi, unsu, suprinpei, ....). For some, researching the potential of the techniques displayed, is the true goal of karate. So for them kata comes first, bunkai next.
For others, gaining understanding in applying technique comes first and for that they hava the kata as their initial memory stick. These people insist bunkai is first and kata second.

The first kata we teach is a kata of stances, no techniques. Students so remeber the stances musubi-dachi, heiko-dachi, zenkustu-dachi, sanchin-dachi, heisoku-dachi, hachi-chi-dachi, neko-ashi-dachi and shiko-dachi. They also learn basic stepping. No hand or foot techniques are in that kata.

Also, do not forget that conditioning is a very important feature in karate. Sometimes kata is trained with goal conditioning. Uechi-ryu sanchin and in lesser extend goju-ryu sanchin have this goal. But in that regard any kata can be transformed into a conditioning exercise.

The beauty of kata is that it is multifunctional. To me, this makes kata / karate training interesting. Some think it is a waist of time to learn fighting by training and investigating kata. But for me this is what I like and I have friends to train / research with.

Apperntly in older days, (pre 20th century), a friendly match could be a kata contest to know the 'better' martial artist. So maybe the goal of kata is then the display of 'martial aura' and not the understanding of individual technique.

I think, that kata is a lot more than just the chaining of techniques to remeber the application of them.

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#318201 - 01/27/07 06:06 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: Unsu]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Kata were formed (no pun intended) in order to convey the generalities of the actual self-preservation techniques.





"Techniques" with little hope for actual applicative effectiveness IMO


-John

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#318202 - 01/27/07 06:22 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: JKogas]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi John,

of course your opinion is valid, as its your opinion

but you are in the forms section, please respect that others opinion is that kata can deliver practical technique (with the relevant supportive training of course),

your short rather direct awnser could be considered trying to get a 'rise', LOL.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#318203 - 01/27/07 07:07 PM Re: Which came first: kata or bunkai [Re: JKogas]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

Quote:

Kata were formed (no pun intended) in order to convey the generalities of the actual self-preservation techniques.





"Techniques" with little hope for actual applicative effectiveness IMO


-John




In this instance, and in anything regarding true martial ARTS, your opinion is not valid it's just gibberish. It's like getting surgical advice from a butcher. Stick to the superficial stuff you do, and keep out of grown folks' conversations------ IMO.

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