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#318163 - 01/26/07 06:00 AM What does your instructor think budo is?
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
When discussing Japanese karate people often use the term 'budo'. It's often used quite loosely, for example, "It's not just a hobby or sport. It's budo".

I've heard my (Japanese) chief instructor talk about a particular point and then say "but that's different that's budo".

So the term is certainly used a lot to convey meaning about the art. Yet how many of us know what budo is, and those of us that do think we know .... do the people we're talking to/learning from share our idea of what it is?

My understanding is pretty much what's described by Draeger and by Christopher Caile in these articles (this I think is the commonly accepted definition):

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=86
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=84

Yet I get the impression that when many people talk of budo they think it's 'real fighting' - using karate for real rather than just as a sport. And in fact, if you look at the Wikipedia definition you'll see that there is some disagreement as to whether Draeger was correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budo

So quite the opposite of Drager and Christopher Caile's ideas.

So if YOUR instructor tells you that you're studying budo, do you know for certain which definition he thinks is correct? Is he telling you that he's teaching you a method of self-improvement centered around sport fighting, or is he telling you that he's teaching you to fight like a real warrior?
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Susan

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#318164 - 01/26/07 09:50 AM Re: What does your instructor think budo is? [Re: scarter]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
It was obvious with my instructors. We are taught to fight from early on. We are taught to be tough mentally and physically,no sport about it.

Budo is never really talked about,but we sometimes get philosophical. Most people can distinguish the differences and decide which path better suits them.

It's a personal choice,not something universal or that should be expected from a karateka in my opinion.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#318165 - 01/26/07 11:32 AM Re: What does your instructor think budo is? [Re: scarter]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
my instructor has always mad her personal view of budo quite clear, sometimes while in class, and out side when we get to talking. while i respect and love her more then she'll know, i do disagree with it only slightly. i feel more like budo is beautiful idea, and cannot be defined completly by anyone, even though my instructor has anwered me when i asked, i feel thats true budo just is, and is enjoyed much more when you stop trying to pin it down as "this and not that" and just lived.

other peoples definition of budo, are theres and theres alone, i don't share anyone elses "way", even if wikipedia tells me what it is largely acepted as. Chris Caile's is his, and is going to be different then mine. after all, im not trying to be him, even if i study from him, im just studying to from my own opinion and not carbon copy anyone's.

my instructor loves budo, and so do i. the next most important thing is that we try and live up to it.

yours in life
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#318166 - 01/26/07 11:35 AM Re: What does your instructor think budo is? [Re: scarter]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I don't know...I've never asked him. We discuss technique, applications and other pragmatic issues that arise during training.

Philosophical issues are left up to me to figure out.

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#318167 - 01/26/07 12:12 PM Re: What does your instructor think budo is? [Re: scarter]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
If I have to use such loaded terms---then I have to say that most of the folks I have trained with have taken a much more "jutsu/jitsu" approach than a "do" approach.

There is always on-going deabte over the "whoes" more correct with the defiantion of a given term.

As a practical matter IMO, its all pretty off the mark.

Regardless of whatever strict defination one subscribes too--what REALLY counts is training.

(and THIS TOO is open to debate/discussion )

I have been in dojos that prided themselevs on the focusing mainly in the "do" aspect of their are that were every bit as brutally tough in training, harshly punishinging in their actions and behavior as the most rough of "jitsu" schools.

And I have been in utterly practical, "we focus on the actual application of our training, not in its spiritual qualties" schools that were some of the most pleasent and relaxed to train in.

People can define things however they wish.

IMO, though, at the end of the day, its how you train that matters.

And that has little to do with how you define "jitsu" or "do."

Soapbox now free for use by others.


Edited by cxt (01/26/07 12:13 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#318168 - 01/26/07 12:58 PM Re: What does your instructor think budo is? [Re: cxt]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
Quote:

Soapbox now free for use by others.




OK. My turn

Quote:

I have been in dojos that prided themselevs on the focusing mainly in the "do" aspect of their are that were every bit as brutally tough in training, harshly punishinging in their actions and behavior as the most rough of "jitsu" schools.




Absolutely! After all, the goal in modern budo (or 'do' arts) is self-improvement and preservation of the warrior spirit through hard training (Shuyugo?). I think the difference is, self-defence capability isn't the goal. It's more important that the training is hard and exacting - so big, deep stances, high kicks and exagerated movements with attention to detail tends to result in development of the art away from techniques that are practical and effective in a self-defence situation. (for example, whilst poking someone in the eye with your finger might be an effective self-defence technique it's not exactly physical demanding, and therefore not ideal for Shuyugo type training ! ).

Quote:

IMO, though, at the end of the day, its how you train that matters.




Yes. But I'd stress that it's how you *really* train, rather than how you *think* you train that's important.

The thing that I find interesting is that within a single club you'll often find people with completely opposing ideas on how they do train!

Half the club think the instructor is teaching self-defence/fighting, the other half think he's teaching a do art (self-improvement and preservation of warrior spirit through hard training). Everyone's heard him say "it's budo", so they interpret that according to their personal interpretation of what budo is. Now whilst these two things *can* be interchangeable I think the goals and therefore the driving forces are different. Does it matter if someone *thinks* they're studying self-defence if they're really being taught sporting techniques? Is there a difference between self-defence techniques and sport fighting techniques?

Consider JKA style Shotokan. Kihon centric, 3 K's, long range 'sport' or 'dueling' type techniques. The JKA place emphasis on budo - "it's not just a sport" they claim. So what do they mean by budo? Are they teaching self-defence or self-improvement? I'd be interested to hear from other JKA style Shotokaner's on this!
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#318169 - 01/26/07 05:31 PM Re: What does your instructor think budo is? [Re: scarter]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Susan:

Interesting question...

Fortunately/unfortunately(depending on ones perspective ) my art has lineage and is Okinawan not "Japanese" per se... Quite a different approach in ways to hear it told by some.

Budo by definition would be the modern practice of combative martial arts a-typically within a civilian & individual context. The suffix -do in the word indicates a method of practice which often implys a stronger philosophic approach of training beyond its physical technical lethality.

Budo, older battlefield martial arts/practices of Professional Japanese Soldiers (ie Samurai) historically which have been altered and are taught to the general public at large in its current form.

Using for "REAL", always found that an odd assertion. Always liked the counter what does it mean, what happens if we NEVER need to use the physical... what does that do to ones so-called "reality training" prey tell?

Learning to deal with conflict, the ones others give/share with me, and definately the ones I bring within myself! Define our boundries and maintain them, assert ourselves...
Is that Budo... you got me?

Jeff

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#318170 - 01/26/07 05:32 PM Re: What does your instructor think budo is? [Re: scarter]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
scarter

That is an excellent point/distinction.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#318171 - 01/26/07 10:27 PM Re: What does your instructor think budo is? [Re: cxt]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
...and to extend the argument, there are XMA practitioners who REALLY believe that their acrobatics will protect them

But despite their grueling training schedule & total dedication, you'd have to be on the brink of torturing me to get me to publically define their activity as a SD art.

I disagree w/ Student_ because in a PC world where everyone is "special", why propagate the notion that Budo is whatever you want it to be. In this sence, there are no wrong definition of Budo & the XMA crowd can profess that they pursue the ideals of Budo in their sequined spandex costumes. No, Student_, there are some wrong definitions & maybe you need to study your instructor's version deeper rather than give her lip-service.

owari

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#318172 - 01/28/07 08:10 AM Re: What does your instructor think budo is? [Re: hedkikr]
Ives Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Quote:

...But despite their grueling training schedule & total dedication, you'd have to be on the brink of torturing me to get me to publically define their activity as a SD art.




I recon they don't even have time to get into confrontations.

When you look at bujutsu / budo / sport maybe budo is just the transition between bujutsu and sport. (But hey, define bujutsu and sport.)

I personally think someone should train towards their own goal and conviction / ideals.
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