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#318075 - 02/28/07 03:18 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: jamesd]
webby Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 147
Loc: newton abbot devon
i see that you used the choke in a goodway...he didnt pass out you had control but why not use a effective and saver lock such as a arm lock or wrist lock with does also cause a great deal of pain and will give you anoth time to cuff the unlucky feller....i understand that in a situation like that you do not have time to think what lock your going to do and so on and you did what came natraul to you..so well done.

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#318076 - 03/01/07 01:16 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: webby]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Quote:

...i understand that in a situation like that you do not have time to think what lock your going to do and so on and you did what came natraul to you..so well done.




That's more or less the way it is. I saw the oppotunity present itself for a choke and went for it much the same way I would in BJJ class. The position i was in and the position he was in made the RNC the easiest submission move to use.

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#318077 - 07/03/07 02:31 AM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Glockmeister]
Hapkid0ist Offline
Member

Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 125
Loc: Hollyhood, Ca.
I could be wrong but if I remember correctly, a choke that is applied against the Adam's Apple/larynx is a felony in many states for the reason that it can cause severe harm or death. Yet a choke that is applied to the side of the neck cutting off blood flow or oxygen and proven not to cause damage to the throat the way the other choke can is not a felony and can be fought in court if need be. Though it is a frowned upon technique period, but if a civilian needed to use one then the safest bet is the latter.
_________________________
D.W. McCullar, Hapkido
I.H.K.A./I.H.M.U.Ca. Chief Instructor, 5th Dan
www.ihmuca.com

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#318078 - 07/13/07 11:35 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: kman]
winterwarrior Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 19
the lapd had lethal results with the choke cause they used a baton reinforced choke. Not just the average choke. It was also found that over age 50 black males with smoking and alcohol have a pattern of their carotid artery sheaths not reopening after a choke is released

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#318079 - 07/16/07 07:17 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Hapkid0ist]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:

I could be wrong but if I remember correctly, a choke that is applied against the Adam's Apple/larynx is a felony in many states for the reason that it can cause severe harm or death. Yet a choke that is applied to the side of the neck cutting off blood flow or oxygen and proven not to cause damage to the throat the way the other choke can is not a felony and can be fought in court if need be. Though it is a frowned upon technique period, but if a civilian needed to use one then the safest bet is the latter.




Far too simplistic. The act itself cannot be labeled a felony unless it is defined in the proper context. Simply restraining the neck, sides or throat will not classify something as a felony by technique alone. This sounds like something perpetuated by a martial arts teacher.

If you attack someone and use a technique or maneuver that places the person in fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury, then that could be grounds for criminal charges of aggravated assault. If such techniques or moves actually result in death or serious bodily injury, then it could be considered aggravated battery if not some degree of homicide.

If you are attacked by someone else and are forced to defend yourself using said neck hold, the force used (based on the resulting injurious affect) must paralel the danger you are facing. If you seriously injure or kill someone, even after being attacked, you may be judged to have acted excessively....if your actions are believed to have been reckless, excessive and unreasonable based on what an average "reasonable" person might have done in that situation.
_________________________
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#318080 - 07/17/07 08:36 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Fletch1]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
See thread in the MA talk forum, that probably needs to be moved to here, about how "reasonable" people can be.

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#318081 - 07/18/07 04:23 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I am far from expert in Police Science but I once, long ago attended a PR-24 training session, at a Bando summer camp, being taught by a Georgia State Trouper and qualified trainer.

He explained that Police Science had a long history of new answers to provide more humane control of subjects, and eventually each one turned fatal and was abandoned.

He discussed how the choke was thought to be a more humane way to control a subject than busting them over the head with a billy club. The correct choke can put someone out in 6 seconds because the pressure on the carotid sinus causes the heart to belive blood pressure jumped up and stops the heart beating to lower the blood pressure, and lack of blood causes the unconsciousness. But they forgot the human equation. A Police Officer trying to subdue someone is probably in a life threatening situation, the person may well have been trying to kill, maim or break the officer, and with their adrenilan up they won't release the choke, and that can kill. So Choking became another tactic to discard in Police Science.

Now one can talk about lawyers, but Police Officers truly aren't into killing people, even if by momentary mistake. The control was probably a combination of law (legislators concern), lawsuits (in part) and a search for a more intelligent control method.

The answer at that time was the 'correct' use of the PR-24 (the police version of the tonfa).

Unfortunately there are not simple answers.


Edited by Victor Smith (07/18/07 04:24 PM)
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#318082 - 08/08/07 08:35 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Victor Smith]
winterwarrior Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/01/07
Posts: 19
the difference is in chokes vs strangles, strangles restrict the larynx, chokes restrict the side of the neck areas. Skill is also a factor.

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