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#318065 - 01/25/07 01:38 PM Using Chokes on Duty
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Last Sunday I had a situation where a mentally ill inmate was being uncooperative and eventually I needed to take him to the floor, he was in an open, low security area where there were no cells and I had no immediate back-up there, I used an Osoto Gari to take him down and got him over onto his back. He put both hands on the floor and attampted to get back up and I instinctively got on him and slapped a rear naked choke on him and squeezed untill he stopped resisting, got my knee on his back and called for back up and cuffed him. I got to thinking, I had the thought of choking him all the way out but then thought better of it since I had a couple of reservations about putting him all the way out. For one, At that point I got control of the situation, two, he was on various medications and I wasn't sure if there would be any danger to him if he was compleatly choked out to the point of uncounciousness while taking all these meds since I wasn't sure if they affected his blood pressure, etc. Also, I was unsure if after being choked all the way out a perp will kind of "come-to" on his own or if he needs to be revived and it may have been more trouble than it was worth.
Any thoughts? Anyone here have to choke a person out either on-duty or in self defense situation?

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#318066 - 01/25/07 01:46 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Glockmeister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Never had to use one professionally. Glad to hear that you weren't hurt. I know there are several LEO's on the forum that can give you better insight than me.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#318067 - 01/25/07 04:51 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Glockmeister]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Yes, the same technique. Happened years ago in a club with no room to brawl or fight. Not going into details but it was very quick and painless. The technique back then was called "the sleeper", rear naked choke is pretty much new terminology.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#318068 - 01/25/07 07:12 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: schanne]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Did he need to be revived or did he eventually "wake up"?

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#318069 - 01/30/07 04:28 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: MattJ]
kman Offline
Member

Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 368
Loc: minnesota
In many jurisdictions, any and all "choking" has been equated with lethal force. Thanks to the lawyers. Many employers and agencies have banned all chokes, headlocks "neck restraint" of all types. It's a fast track to a law suit and a big settlement from your insurace carrier, regardless of how skilled you are and what the outcome is. LAPD had a rash of in custody deaths a while back and paved the way for this. Many employers will respond with summary dismissal for neck moves. The man on the street has more leeway since he's judged by the outcome as opposed to some imaginary standard.
There's a body of medical knowledge on the subject but the hard research is pretty old. Law enforcement trainers have responded by devloping a "carotid artery neck resraint" technique and a program of instruction to certify the officer, and trainers. It provides a legal defense against the liability issue. The actual techique is a slightly modified rear naked choke and a lot of awareness training as to the potential outcomes. Common sense to most and well below the skill level of a judo or jujitsu practioner, but nessessary. You be surprised at how little the average guy/cop might know about the anatomy of the neck, the theory of a "choke out" aand how easy it is to kill someone with an improperly applied technique. Some of those LAPD deaths involved a baton aumented choke applied to derranged or chemically impaired subject who literally killed himself struggling against the choke while the officer kept squeezing waiting for the technique to work.
I would suggest that you check with your employer well beforehand regarding policy on chokes. If they havent adressed before hand the answer is likely to be no. K-

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#318070 - 01/30/07 11:11 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: kman]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Remember, scenario dictates your tactics. If deadly force is justified, it is justified with a LVNR or a sledgehammer to the head. The issue of agencies "banning" techniques involving the neck is a political one but one that can negatively impact your career nonetheless.

Kansas City, MO has a specific program they teach in the LVNR that has done a lot to re-legitimize the tactic that has over the years been unfairly bashed.

In the case listed above, a neck restraint might not have been completely unreasonable as long as you could articulate that you were losing physical control of the suspect and could have suffered serious bodily injury had you not applied the technique. To argue this, experience and training are definitely your allies. You need to convince administrators that the "approved" list of tactics was inadequate and you were compelled to improvise with a technique that you have training in and can apply properly.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#318071 - 02/03/07 08:06 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Fletch1]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
I don't see that you had much choice, but going for the throat always strikes me as unpredictable - I hit a guy in the throat once on duty, with no permenant damage.

. once, in training, I put a naked rear hold on somebody who was maybe a foot taller than me, and maybe 100 pounds heavier, and he passed out immidiatly - I was holding him on the ground, and I was excited, and didn't realize that he passed out. I could have killed him by mistake.

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#318072 - 02/04/07 12:30 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Glockmeister]
harold Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 10
kman said something to the effect that many suspects choked themselves as officers held on WAITING FOR THE TECHNIQUE TO WORK. Studies have shown that when a technique is applied, if it does not work right away, officers will escalate the force.This is the body's natural reaction. I am glad you came out o.k. but as someone else said, be sure to check your policy regarding this type of response and remember to document the use of the respective force in a way where you state the facts but do not wind up paying for it either criminally or as a defendant in a civil suit.

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#318073 - 02/13/07 01:11 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Glockmeister]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
The PD and Security depts here are against any technique above the collar bone or shoulders. Too many incidents of injuries due to chokes with the night stick or bare arms.

I use to teach a lapel choke and was advised that was illegal also, any technique dealing with the neck is to be avoided here.

The mentally ill and drug induce suspects are espeicailly hard to restrain, they have very high pain threshold and sometimes adrenalin fused strength. Sometimes if by yourself you have do what works and survive.
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#318074 - 02/25/07 01:17 PM Re: Using Chokes on Duty [Re: Glockmeister]
jamesd Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 145
Loc: Essex,England
Hi Glockmeister,

I've used chokes on various occasions whilst working as a doorman but I've never had to use them whilst working as a Prison Officer, I'm not saying that I wouldn't use them because I would if the situation required it, you did what you thought was necessary at the time, no persons were hurt and it was justified, regards,

James.
_________________________
www.hardfasthandway.com

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