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#316308 - 01/19/07 01:54 PM Low x-block
Shonuff Offline
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I was just wondering what people think about the traditional - blocking a kick - application of this technique?

Do people think it works, it doesn't work? Is it practical? Do you prefer other applications, etc.
Low X-block usefulness
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 01/19/07 01:52 PM
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#316309 - 01/19/07 02:10 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
BrianS Offline
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Lowering both hands to block? Don't think so.
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#316310 - 01/19/07 02:19 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: BrianS]
MattJ Offline
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It works, I guess. But I wouldn't do it.
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#316311 - 01/19/07 02:27 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Classical usage suggests it's application is better suited for grappling or dealing with a downed/bent over opponent than stand up blocking. It can be used for many things such as a double leg takedown to a arm/shoulder lock to a grab/strike combo to an opponent you have just put down or are in the process of putting down.

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#316312 - 01/19/07 03:09 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Chen Zen Offline
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Im sure it could be made to work, though it isnt something I would EVER do.
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#316313 - 01/19/07 03:11 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
oldman Offline
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#316314 - 01/20/07 05:31 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: oldman]
Chen Zen Offline
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Nice interpretation Mark. However, having Wing Chun experience, we look to PURPOSELY cross the opponents arms, so for us, this would be great help.
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#316315 - 01/20/07 06:56 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Nice interpretation Mark. However, having Wing Chun experience, we look to PURPOSELY cross the opponents arms, so for us, this would be great help.




Hmm, so that means if my arms are crossed when I have your legs wrapped up in a double leg takedown, or a RNC, or a key lock, you have me just where you want me.

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#316316 - 01/20/07 07:38 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Shonuff:

If we make X work, then it works, if we do not, did IT or we fail??? I reject the idea of it being "traditional".

Two hands are rarely both doing the same thing... ending up in the same place yes... both blocking... not in my book.

Jeff

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#316317 - 01/20/07 10:26 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Chen Zen Offline
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I see your point Med, but the drawing isnt of two guys on the ground is it? Im not saying its ALWAYS bad to cross your arms, its just not a good idea in a stand up strike position.

Take the picture for example. The portley fellow on the left has punched in a very Traditional manner. He has been slipped by his opponent and the "X block" has been applied to begin the lock. Right here, if he studied wing Chun and was in better shape, he would attempt to withdraw the punching hand while taking his other hand and holding the two arms crossed. To do this he would probably punch his opponent in the face then drop it down on his opponents arms, where they cross. Even if he is unsuccessful in the withdrawal, he has crossed the arms of his opponent, taking away his defense. He is free to strike again, with out much worry of counter attack. Take into consideration the sticky hands training of a Wing Chun practitioner and you may have put yourself in a bad position by "X Blocking" .
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#316318 - 01/20/07 11:02 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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thats most likely why the technique wasn't designed to defeat the wing chun man. most karate movements work best on people who have been lured into making the "first" shot, in this case "first" also means their last.

theres not too many a martial artist that would pnch like the guy pictured, the application is for self defence against a jerk off who wants to hurt you, not a highly trained martial artist who has challanged you to a mortal kombat.

don't fight is the general rule, theres no reason for kata to display strategy for sparing.

your point is appreciated though, but a boxer would have done this....and a tkd guy would have done that.....and a systema guy would have tried to use proapaganda from the 70's......

im not sure i fully understand the reason why its worded this way, but the text goes something like this " karate techniques were designed to be used against people who did not know the methods being used against them." a fighter with half a clue wold have attacked with more ballance, true. but aikido follows a similar frame of mind i think. but i do think wrong from time to time, sshhhh don't tell anyone....


yours in life
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#316319 - 01/20/07 11:14 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
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So by your post, one could say that Karate was not designed to beat the Karateka?

I have issues with that line of thinking. I dont train to fight Joe Barstool, I train to fight the best. I dont need techniques that only work against an unskilled opponent. I want the ones that work against the highly skilled opponents. Then if Joe Barstool does come along, I still have something for him.
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Lao Tzu

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#316320 - 01/20/07 11:47 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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like i said, i kind of have issues with it too, the way it looks to me is far to limiting to the karateka and his ability to defend himself. i mean, joe barstool is one of alot o fthreats that could blind side you. alot of people involved in violent attakcs do have some knowledge of "martial arts" in that, alot of guys i know who fight regularly work out in a local boxing gym and on their own heavy bags, so they know how to throw some decent hands alright.

the best i can figure is that it roughly translates into - use the simpelest posible way to win. simple for lots of reasons.

and as for training to fight the best. karate is a civilian self defence system, and is aimed at downing some one who dosn't see it coming. fighting "the best" is kind of confusing? are you stalone in some 80's paramilitary action or something?? you like to spar and win in competetive places, thats kool. karate will teach you to take advantage to oppertunities your opponent makes, and every one makes them, if the mma guys (for example) never made an unballanced attack then no onw would ever get taken down or knowcked out.

befor i go needlessly on like usual, the idea is to take advantage to the mistake your opponents make and finish the fight as quickly as posible after exploiting that opening. the same frame of mind is in any martial art, im proably just explaining it poorly. the idea that a different punching method would have defeated the technique pictured is stupid, its like being 5 and saying that one power is better then another. if a different attack was used then the apropiate defence should be applied, weather or not either party is capable is not really debatable.

yours in life
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#316321 - 01/20/07 11:58 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
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Loc: Ms
I think each technique must be evauluated and have its own measure of merit. You have to look at each one from all angles and consider its pros and cons. In a situation such as the one drawn above, there are better options on both players parts, the attacker and defender. The attacker made a mistake by his tradtionalism and the defender made a mistake as well because he defended in a manner that leaves him vulnerable. Both are Bad Techniques. Just because your opponent uses a bad technique do you have to counter it with another?

As for wanting to beat the best, thats not so confusing. I want to win. No matter what. If its the street, the ring, wherever whoever I want to win and I want to survive. Simple. To do that, you must be prepared to face the best out there.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316322 - 01/21/07 12:16 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i feel like im running on your coat tails here chen, why don't i just come over and we can speed this crap up,lol.

see, theres that damn different point of views thing again. i don't think that either technique pictured is bad. the traditionalism in the punch?, are you talking about the arm being pulled to the side?, either then that, the guy is pnching at the face. please explain a little more.

and the defending technique, let me try this text bunkai crap again.....the x position of the hands is being slamed down onto the other guys elbow joint, with enogh force to make it bend. this causes the opponents face to drop toward the defender, then the defender grabs the opponents arm or sleve and hits him in the face or neck with a back hand, from there he continues to grapel. maybe knees, eye gouges, strangles who cares, thats not the point.

i understand its very easy to dismiss the pisture as stupid, but please understand that alot of time has already gone into evualating every movement of kata, and there pro's and con's are understood by alot of people. and further evualaition is still bring done, and will always be done.

im sre youve herd of iain aberbethy and others like him. kata bunkai is the next fad i guess you caould say for traditionalists, im sure if you liked the technique, you'd have already incorperated it into your personal training schedual.

what ever floats yours boat

oh, and every one who trains for self defence or for sport trains to beat the best, therefore all techniques can, and have worked befor. thats why there tought nowadays, for the most part anyway. i understand that there is a mind bogeling ammount of bs out there, but thats usually dressed in multicoulured gi's and have 45 patches and logo's on themselves.

as far as i know the traditional kata are aplyable, and adaptable. as far as i know.......

yours in life
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#316323 - 01/21/07 12:32 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
"Traditionism" What I meant about the picture. Notice, this is your typical reverse punch. The stance is a tradtional front stance, low, with the chambered fist. Notice his lead leg and striking hand are different. This implies that he stepped in with the punch in a telegraphed manner. Its a bad technique. The stance gives him limited mobility. The chambered hand leaves him little to work with defensively as his one chambered hand must protect his torso,centerline, and face. His punch is fully extended, which is never good. Its what would lead to him being trapped or easily countered.

The X Block is also a bad technique. It does have good stopping abilities and is able to set up the grab. However blocking is the lowest form of defense. This particular block relies on poor execution from the opponent, but what if he fights well? It also requires that both hands be in one place and be in use. This leaves you little to defend yourself or attack with.

As for techniques I use or dont use, it has little to do with if I "like" it. I HATE to grapple, but I do it because I know it can help me.

I dont approach my training with such things as Like or dislike, karate or kung fu, traditional or modern. The only two things I care about when selecting and training is works and doesnt. Im going to do my best to dissect a technique before it becomes a part of me. This gives me an idea of what to expect when training and performing with resistance. Also, this weeds out alot of the BS.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316324 - 01/21/07 12:59 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
the "clasic" front stance is just a position in which the body weight has been transfered foward towards the direction of attack, it makes the punch stronger like you hear boxing coaches saying all the time to put your weight into your punches, thats what a front stance is designed to teach. in a real fight that position would not be as pronounced therefore not limiting movement. the use of low stances in training is to teach speed at low postures, therefore at a higher more natural posture you should be able to move a little faster.

the "x" block position could have statred from a clinch, your hands around the opponents neck, then the bottom hand feeds under the target arm and they both snap down fast and hard draging the head down and opening the neck for the fowlling attack.

as for tellegraphing the attack, every attack it tellegraphed. its just a matter of being faked out and missing the opertunity.

having both hands in one place is not a bad thing, its like saying that fighting from your back is a bad thing, say that to the bjj guys. both hands are only kept in one place for a split second, because they would be used to strike down on the elbow joint, they they move again, one holds the other strikes.

im summery, the stance is a trainer for power generation and direction not to be used in a live situation so pronounced. the attacker using a reverse punch, its similar to the cross in boxing so wtf is the difference? you tell me?? the attacker tellegraphed, of coarse he did because the context of karate self defence is to wait for the opponent to make the mistake of taking his mind off defence while he makes an attack, that is the chance to kill him. he tellegraphed because he moved, not because he used a crappy attack. it takes a calm head and reaction time training.

that about covers it as i see it. the picture is just a picture, a training aid. im sure oldman never ment it to cause such a problem, he was just provding an example. there is a reason for every thing, evrey position in kata, the arm placement, stance, posture, everything. please don't just shoot the idea down, because its not what it looks like, its more like a code, and you have to understnad the language to interpret the idea wholely.

yours in life
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#316325 - 01/21/07 11:16 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
"In a real fight the position would not be so pronounced"

Then why train it or against it as if it would be?

Say what you will about both hands being in the same place as ok, I just cant agree with it. It leaves too many holes.

"The reverse punch is similar to the cross in boxing"

Not even close. First, a boxers feet are closer, he is more square with his opponent. His hands are up at his face and when he strikes, movement is not wasted because his fist doesn't travel from his waist or back to it. He does not fully extend and when he strikes he is still covering his head. That is nothing like a Traditional reverse punch.

"The context of karate self defense is to wait for the opponent to make the mistake of taking his mind off of defense while he makes an attack, that is the chance to KILL HIM"

Come now, kill him?

So if a karateka is waiting on me to attack, so that Im not thinking about defense, what is the karateka thinking of as he makes plans to attack me? Attacking? Or defending my attack? Either way it would seem to me if I have the attack launched Im a step ahead of the karateka. And at the least on level ground with him.

And you can talk about telegraphing all you want. Sure, every move is telegraphed but TO WHAT DEGREE? Thats whats important. If your hands are by your waist, they will take longer to reach out and strike then if they were by your head. If they are returning to the waist, they have that much farther to travel on the withdrawal as well.

If both hands are in the same place at the same time, there is still that extra wasted movement that you must perform before you can successfully block or strike.

And Im sure Marks picture was just a friendly example, not meant to be the basis of discussion, but it is. And my analysis of it is also friendly. I know Mark is a quiet capable Martial Artist, on and off the mat. However, I have to speak freely and honestly about the things I see.
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316326 - 01/22/07 07:43 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Shonuff Offline
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Although in principle I agree that two hands blocking is bad, I still occasionally find myself throwing both hands in the way of a particularly powerful kick to the groin that I didnt see coming and yet don't end up paying any horribly painful price.

The low x-block is a pretty natural response to a surprise attack in that region and I think that surprise is one of the keys to understanding this movements traditional application.

I believe that what the kata's try to show us through the contexts they have surropunding this movement is how to turn the disadvantaged position of the surprises ambushee into the advantaged aggressor. Almost every kata example of this movement that I can think of follows it up with a mid/high attackblock of some kind in anticipation of the kickers natural followup attack to the exposed area. Dropping both hands to block works in this case because of one other factor, Power!

To Shotokan at least (I believe this is universal but I know some will argue otherwiise) it seems to be the rule that distance allows you to generate power. Also to throw real strength/weight into a kick most of the time the upper body will lean back slightly to put the hip in, especially if the kick is an entry tech from beyond punching range. The extension of the hip on the kicking side also encourages the body to throw a strong lead hand punch (upper torso twists in to match the extension of the lead leg adding weight to the punch) as the succeeding technique, making for a fairly natural, strong, effective but predictable combination; the classic kick-punch.
Putting the hip in sacrifices some of the hand speed that one might find in a tighter closer (less weight intensive) technique as you have more to reel in.

So to the defender who detects this allmighty kick rising to his nether regions and throws down the emergency x-block. Two hands thrusting down, jamming the kick and entering bullet time. Yes he's open up top, but who cares. The attacker is still shifting his weight forward while our stable stalwart front-stanced karateka disengages and thrusts his hands up to parry the incoming punch and do something nasty with it (and yes he is balanced enough to lean/shift back a touch to give himself a little more time if he needs it because he is a karateka and balanced is what we do).

So long as you apply it appropriately I think it works just fine as a block. If done correctly it has the added advantage of being particularly damaging to the shin and cutting into what the attacker sees as a pretty safe entry combination before he has time to think and adapt.

OLDMAN -
Great drawings as ever. Personally I see the app you showed as a variation on the upper x-block. In Kankudai and Gankaku (and others) we have a high open handed x-block which is then brought down to chest hieght with closed fists followed by two front kicks. Standing left foot forward recieving a right handed punch. If the right hand age uke's by the attackers wrist and the lead hand crosses above the punch, then when you pull down tuck the left hand behind the right forearm in a figure four hold and the right hand grabs the now supine fist bending it back towards the attacker and down onto the forearm, bringing your adversary into a semi kneeling position like the one drawn but with the wrist painfully locked and their arm tied up in a hold. Two kicks almost seems cruel at this point.

CHEN & STUDENT
I disagree with the idea that karate was only meant for defence against the untrained. I think that idea came from the mentality of "if I can't do it then it wasn't meant to be done" as held by one Choki Motobu. I also don't think its a good idea to train hoping your opponent will make a mistake (intercepting the fist; attacking during the attack is the ideal counter method). If civil defence was all karate was for then a simple self defence course would be all that was required. It would not take the years of training described by karate history to master.
The most convincing idea I have heard was that of the bodygaurd system as detailed in the book Shotokan's Secret.
However, I think many m.a-ists fell down in the past because they trained against highly skilled specialised tactical fighters (tkd comes to mind) and weren't quite ready for the wild windmill of punches that Mr J Barstool threw at them from his anti-fighting stance. Training for Mr Barstool and training for a duel with Mr Han on his island are very different things and I believe that methods for both are present in our kata.

By the way the reverse punch and the cross are different, but most of the differences are superficial. The only real difference is that one is an attack and one is a counter attack, everything else is window dressing. Deep stance is narrow stance is no stance etc.

Or at least that's what I think of it all.

So most of you have stated that the low x-block is best applied as a non blocking technique. So how else might one use it? Medulanet had some good suggestions. I personally think it makes a good floor restraint but I prefer that use when it is performed from kneeling.

Any other ideas?

Good debate guys!
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#316327 - 01/22/07 08:52 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Chen Zen Offline
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Pretty good for the most part. Except the part where you explained to me that karate wasnt designed for simply use against the untrained. Perhaps you missed it but if you re read the conversation, I didnt advocate this point and actually was rather against that type of ideology.
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316328 - 01/22/07 09:09 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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a think a short history flas back might be of use here chen, so grit your teeth and bear with me!lol.

in the day, the stances wern't so pronounced, as i understand it, it was gitchin funakoshi's son yoshitaka who, when he took over teaching for his father started preaching the benefits of training in a lower stance. prior to that shotokan men trianed like most other's. his beleif's were that by training kata and kihon, and to a degree the kihon kumite in a low stance helped to improve the leg strength and speed. in self defence situations and even in free sparing people will raise their stance to allow for better mobility, thats true, im not argueing with you. but like i said the idea was to improve your speed by use of the low stance, i think it works and i teach it.

and i (i can't speak for all karate ka now) do train from a higher more natural stance as well when i work on my heavy bag or even when i spar with a friend. i agree with you completly that the best way to understand something is to actally DO it, and while training in a deep stance is not a cruch as you would think, i agree its not AS close as training in the more natural stance, but its not the worst thing either.

hands in the same place, i guess for me to explain it any further i'd need to put my hands on you and show you, or maybe i could video my self for a better example, either way you made up your mind.

the reverse punch is closer to the cross then you think man, well mine is. and its not a new age ashihara-krav maga-combat hapkido-sport karate murdering of the cross either, its traditional and im proud of it. the things you brought up, boxers feet are closer, well so would the karateka's in a live situation, the long stance is for the dojo like i said twice already. the boxer is more square: please clear that up, the karateka's body should be close to parallel with the opponents. the boxers hands don't move to his hip and back again: neither does the karateka's, his hand only go to the hip in training, in the dojo to teach the retraction motion, im self defence the hands protect the body the best way they can. being up by the head is a good way to protect the head, what about the groin, or a low tackle, if the hands are up to high (boxer high) then they take longer to defend a low double leg shoot(for example). he does not fully extend: no one who punches correctly will fully extend either, its bad for the elbow. but i proably misinturpeted that one, please explain.

yes i mean kill him!!!lol, it was just a figure of speach, and i thought you might take a swing as i wrote it,lol.

as for the karateka waiting to intercept your attack and using it as the opening, yes, i was tought it in terms of reaction time training, in a way. its way over my head to explain it in text, so let me se an example of good 'ol bruce. when bruce lee used to watch boxing matches he would try and "predict" the next punch by watching carefully the body movement, position, and general habits of the boxers. im sure yo can do it too, just watch any kind of fight sport, mma, boxing, tkd, who cares and just pay close attention to the competetors, and try to just "feel" them out befor they move. with training you can get better and better at it and even catch them befor the move at all and stall them just from your own movement.like i said, over my head to explain in text.... you do it in sparing naturally, you just have to be relaxed and not jumpy or faked out. it can be done, i've done it, but if done wrong, ie you move to late, then your not going to acomplish anytihng, but move at the right time, ie when your opponent thinks he has cought you flat footed, and you catch him by suprise while standing face to face with him.

as for level grond: while action is faster then reaction by definetion, i'm asking you to challenge your concept of who is really acting first here. its like pulling your opponetn allong on a string, he thinks he's founf an opening, but its just a trap, you catch him while he's making the fight or flight choice. tricky to say the least. or bs im sure you'll say.lol.

you keep brining up the hands at your waist thing like its bad??, its just a traing tool, like a heavy bag. i can arguee that hitting a heavy bag isn't hitting a person there fore its crappy training for the real thing. while it's great training, its just training, so it the hand on the hip, its not that pronounced in a live situation, and we do train more then just the clasical way, kinda like how judo is toght clasical and "tourniment" kinda....i do train self defence drills, and i do tell my students that its not going back that far in real life, and we teain it too, more then meets the eye i guess.

like i said, both hands in the same place at the same time "can be usefull", its a good way to apply extra strenght and leverage at the right time and in the right circumstances. you call that wasted movement i call it usefull movement, in the right context. i like to have a few good reliable techniqes like any one, bt nothing is stoping me, or you, from exploring other kinds of motion, a little expiramentation is how yo got to the stage yor at now after all.

honestly, im glade you do speak about the things yo do, this forum is going dead latly and a little good discussion is a great thing!!!

and here here to oldman and his boobushi in progress. im still counting the moments till he releases it publically!!

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#316329 - 01/22/07 09:54 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
No problems! I love stories!

Hmmmm. Where to start....

Low stances for speed. I half buy it I guess. Being in a deeper stance in prolonged periods of time COULD make your muscles stronger, therefore giving you the ABILITY to BECOME faster. "Fast" often has very little to do with the "speed" of things. Often its about timing. And "Fast" also has little to do with muscle mass. Sure you are strengthening your legs when down low but you arent moving the feet and working the footwork. Thats where you get "Fast", from the feet. A person can only attack or defend as quickly as his feet will allow him.

The dreaded X Block.
You seem to consistantly make reference to it in terms of grappling so I will do my best to deal with the issue in those terms.. First you must get to the opponent and get your hands on them in this "X" fashion. When moving in to grab this way do you go in one hand first and then the other, or do you go in both hands at once? I ask because I see serious flaws with both methods, so I am curious as to what your approach may be.

Lets talk about your non- new age ashihara-krav maga-combat hapkido-sport karate murdering reverse punch.

You said "Boxers feet are closer, well so would the Karateka's in a live situation" To that I pose the question, is your training not "alive"?

You said"In the dojo they teach you to retract the hands, in self defense the hands protect the body in the best way they can" in reference to waist level hands. Well, why teach what you do not intend to use?

"The hands head high is good for defending the head but what about the groin?" Let me try to explain my defensive structure to you, if I can. I use a strong hand lead, the lead extended slightly further than the rear. Tight, like a boxer,slightly modified. My fists are face height, where I can see my opponnent over my knuckles. My Chin is tucked and I lean in slightly to fascilitate slipping, bobbing and weaving, covering, and counter hitting. I use my ebows to protect my sides and midsection and to also spike my opponent's attack when necessary. My feet are just at/over shoulder width, knees with a slight bend and I am on my toes. My hands and feet never stop moving whether I am attacking, defending or waiting. Any low lovel kick or strike is checked or blocked by my feet. I never have need to drop my hands lower than sternum height from a standup position.

Reaction based defense. Action is always faster than reaction. Now you can try to predict your opponent, but that doesnt always work. You may not have that time because he may be better than you thought from the get go. What happens if your prediction fails? You've wasted all that time waiting, and now you are on the defensive. In a fight there are two things I dont want. One is to be the last to act and the second is on the defensive. I want to dictate the fight. Of course this can be done, you can evaluate an opponent and sometimes accurately predict him, however you must realize that the percentage rate in the dojo is higher because of your previous knowledge of your opponents and that you cant base a whole self defense upon acting last. Sometimes when trying to trap the opponent, you may have trapped yourself.

As for eploration, is this not what discussion is about? I explore many things. Its great to have these talks. And I too would Like to congratulate mark on his accomplishment. Well done, friend.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316330 - 01/23/07 08:36 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Shonuff,

Unfortunately I really have to disagree with you about the use of the low X "block" and its place and meaning in kata. The application for blocking a front kick was popular in Shotokan schools twenty years ago or more but in most places I go nowadays, if that application is mentioned, it is generally discounted immediately as leaving you wide open to the obvious follow up jab and reverse punch. Plus I have never and I mean never seen free sparring Shotokan people ever use juji uke.

You reference Gankaku and Kanku Dai.IMO if you want to understand what the technique means in that sequence, you need to look at the prior and/or following techniques. In Gankaku, the kneeling juji uke is preceded by a turning shoulder throw from manji uke. This is far more likely therefore to represent a choke or arm/shoulder lock (as also found after the jump in Heian Godan) applied to someone on the ground than turning 270 degrees (i.e. the long way!) to block a low kick from behind. The same is true of the first X movement in Kanku Dai which follows and is part of a movement dumping someone on the ground ("turning the wheel" movement).

It also appears in Heian Yondan as a neck or arm/shoulder manipulation-following a simultaneous cover and strike (the high double open hand position to the right, left hand high)you grab the head bringing it to the hip and thrust down into low X position. If you try this on a partner, you will find that your hands whilst grabbing his head or locking his arm or shoulder are in or very close to X position as you bring them down.

B.

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#316331 - 01/23/07 03:10 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with most of useage and add that the X-block or X-position and isn't neccessary just a block, especailly a stagnate BLOCK, it can also be an interception or a destruction of a limb. True it could be a choke, check strike on a down person. arm lock or rev ankle lock. But what I've used it most for is as a destruction technique as the kick comes in its greeted by knuckles on the instep that, that preceeds to trap the leg pull or push him into a position that opens him to vicious groin kicking into a take down. These 3-4 technique flow together against a would be limping assailant.

In a all shoes on you strike the ankle or calf, knock the leg out of the way, rising into a head butt, sweep and stomp. You can jam the kick, punching straight into the grion. You can check a knee and back out to safety or double leg take down. I find the low/high X-position a feasible technique if you envision flowing to the next move, not waiting for a picture.

As for two hand blocking if you have to, U to have to, don't get hit bc you don't want to block with 2 hands, as long as you don't get hit solid it worked and thats all you need for a second chance. Some system teach it others don't.

As for Karate not effective against skilled opponent, forget that we almost invented open all out fighting, back in the 70s and in Okinawan Bushi vs. Chinese Pirates, no rules. So many only see Karate as a sport.


Edited by Neko456 (01/23/07 03:22 PM)

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#316332 - 01/23/07 04:04 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
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Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
ok, as far as staying in a low stance for prolonged periods of time, like you said it is an ok way to encourage leg strength. however, only staying in that stance for say 15 minutes at a time is not going to give you speed, like you said, and thats why we do prtice foot work, and body shifting, the japanease term is tai sabaki i think. you might have seen it slng around other threads. we pratice alot of foor work and ways to move into temporary blind sopts and other things, we don't just hang out in gi's and see who can stand a low kiba dachi the longest,lol.

as for entering into the x block position: obvisouly you would approach the entry for this technique like any other, your main goal is to make it past his weapons as safely as posible. as a rule of thumb, i wouldn't just raise my hands into the position and walk towards a flury of punches and pray to god. the best way i've fond to teach this technique is to start form a clinch position and work the way around different arm positions from there, we also teach ways (through foot work for example) on how to enter into your own effective range wihile staying safe form your opponents. since your dieing to shoot down an application, lets fire this one out. say you find yourself in the clasic wrestlers clintch, one hand on your opponents tricept, and the other around his neck, and he has you simeralary. how you got into this position is not up for discuaaion here, as range is a constantally changing thing and its verry natural to "clintch", while it may not be natural to clintch well, but thats another topic, and one we do tecch our students. ok, so your left hand is on his neck and your right on his tricept, from here, your left hand keeps hold of his neck and your right comes off his arm and across for a close vertical fist punch as it corsses his body, the punch strikes the side of his jaw, or ear, or clips the chin on the way, your choice really. right here and now, after the punch has been exacuted, yours hands should be in roughly the position for a high x block, almost crossed at the wrist or forearm. from here, because he is stuned for only a slpit second, both your hands should be over, or close too his right shoulder, they then snap down on his forearm, or grab some clothing and pull down quickly and with a forcefull jerk. this motion will cause a whiping like action of his head, and while his head is coming down his neck will be open for a moment, here your left hand keeps control of his right arm and your right hand snaps out as a back fist, or ridge hand toward his neck, face, eyes, what ever. so, starting froma clinch, you strike him once and thats the high x block, then they snap down while "crossed" thats the low x block, and then they control and strke at the same time, maybe a "reenforced" block as some people call it, moroto uke i think.

its all done real quick, obvisouly. as far as i know its a kind of jun fan, or traping as a JKD friend of mine told me after i showed it to him. yor traping one arm and striking.

fire away on that one. and for the record, if the circumstances change, for example the opponent moves, or shifts, the karateka, or any trained fighter really, will shifty accordingly. he may abandon one technique when the oppertunity arises.

and thats the general idea behind any fighting tradition isn't it?, for every body position there are 1000 counters, throws, strikes, what ever. it should be the fighters goal to apply the right move at the right time to push the opponent over the edge to defeat. there was a thread a while ago talking about fighting styles, and i beleive you had a similar idea of fighting, just complete your opponents other half as it were, be his shadow. he kills him self, by his own weakesses. karate techniques are ment to enhance a persons sefl defence abilities, like any martial art, not limit them to static useless crap. the real world may be a nother story tho.....

the defensive modle you outlined seems ideal in theory, but you do have to admit that your not picture perfet all the time, no one is. fatigue, fear, shock, there are alot of thing out there that can cause the momentary slip up that is the k.o.

as for asking if my traing is live or not, don't be so foolish bud. when we train we have spefic goals in mind, some times it's to work on one aspect of technique or application or theory, or any combination of the lot. please don't put foward that yor the only one who tains hard or correct.

not intending to se the draw arm: 3 time must be the charm. yes we do intend on using it, but to different degrees, it may not always be that far back on the hip if your pulling on someones arm or clothing. it may be back that far cause it just forcefully checked the opponents limb and is making maximal use of rotational force. the main reason why we train it at the hip in the dojo is case it does add power and speed, so when your pratcing line work for the purpose of learning body dynamics it is sometimes a good idea to overeagerate some form of motion so that yo can better nderstand and apply it it another form. we do use it, both hands are always doing something, always. covering your head is only one option, we don't want to limit ourselves.

i know that you won't always be able to feel yor opponent out and move in the best place at the best time, but its really the safest way to end a confrontation, as quickly as posible, the one technique idea. because it dosen't always work we train other options as well, like the clinch work for example, and ground work. like i said, the most options posible, while still maintaining a solid base of core "dependables" as well, befor that gets shot down.

i remember reading something about a trend in JKD gyms a while back, that some of them had given up the traping portion becaus rthey felt it was unpratical. either way, your right, failing to trap someone may lead to a crapy position for yourself, but any technique preformed poorly will result in that inch away from defeat thing i was talking about earler. i understand tho that you prefre to use techniques that put yourself in a mch less threatened state if messed up, that is a good way to train i agree, so long as you don'w totally abondon something that is not totally useless, just because its not the sure thing.

ok, fire away, this is getting interesting. and the more you challange the better my students will understand, so thanks for the feedback chen!

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#316333 - 01/23/07 04:13 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I think there is a bottom line to all this interpretation mumbo jumbo.

Doesn't matter what the move is if you can make it work for you in your interpretation in a real situation.


Unless it's farmer burns wrestling.
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#316334 - 01/23/07 05:02 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: BrianS]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Yeah, I don't know if its a "western" thing or what.

But the second you present a picture or a drawing or a snapshot--anything that is static and people INSTANTLY jump to locking that down as "how "X" is supposed to be done."

For good or ill--that somehow becomes ingrained as a sort of "default position" in terms of what is viewed as "correct."

The longer I train the more conveinced I am that is one of the main reason that direct application was never seen as utterly "fixed" by the old timers.

They knew and tried to work around the human tendency to "label" things as being "this OR that" NOT "this AND that."
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#316335 - 01/23/07 06:14 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
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Loc: London, UK
Hey Barad

You might want to have a re-read of my post, I realise its quite long so it's easy to miss bits.

As far as the jab counter, the point I was trying to explain is that you are using this block to make them throw the jab. Paragraphs 3 to 6 of my post explain why if used against the right type of kick, one has enough time after jamming the kick to intercept or interupt the upper body attack. One key point I didn't mention though is that ideally this technique should be used going forward (though not exclusively) to cut off the attacking motion.
Like I said it all comes down to using the technique in the correct circumstances.

Please understand also I do not dispute the other applications that you mentioned, I don't even dispute that this may not be an ideal use of the technique, but it does work. And this is from someone who discounted the juji uke movement's blocking potential, just like the other modern shotokan folks.
I would guess that Shotokan people don't use juji uke in sparring because they don't practice applying it (like most of the techniques they have hidden away in kata ) and as you said they dispute its effectiveness. Try throwing a smeaky groin kick at some of the Shotokan guys while at the pub after training, you might see one pull it out then .

Just out of curiosity, have you ever seen a shotokaner pull out the app you described in sparring?

When I refrenced Gankaku and Kankudai I was actually talking about the jodan juji uke, not gedan (sorry for the confusion) and I was only really thinking about an app of Gankaku.
The app you described for Gankaku's kneeling x-block is precisely what I was talking about when at the end of my post I said (about low x-block): I personally think it makes a good floor restraint but I prefer that use when it is performed from kneeling.

When I talked about the what the kata try to show us through this techniques (low x-block) context, I should have really said: where this technique (low x-block) is shown in a kata with blocking in mind.
I was thinking of the low x-block as a block as opposed to the undefined and much debated juji uke movement. I agree that there are some kata where this movement is simply not a block at all, but mostly I see the blocking application of juji uke as one layer of application, with other layers surrounding it. For me personally the key point where these layers off apps are concerned is that each layer that you look at is consistent through the kata and teaches something/s with a core rule behind them.
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#316336 - 01/23/07 09:26 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Well Student, let me first say that you put up a good arguement. Good stuff.

Yeah, Ive seen the word Tai Sabaki tossed around here a few times. Im not a Karateka by any means really so I dont know many of the terms, but I get what your saying. So how does this relate to your kata work, is it done at the same time? My work with kata wasnt static per say, but it did feel blocky and robotic in a sense. Because of the way they shifted from one stance to another, and to be honest most of these types of things are positions that I dont find myself in, which caused me to wonder why I did them at all.

Your example was a good one. The application was good. The only thing that stuck out to me was the initial positioning in the clinch. I dont clinch in this fashion. I have several different ways that I clinch but not like that. If I clinch there are things I look for. Can I control the wrist? Can I make it inside, under his arm to his body? Can I control the head? If I can control the wrist, I want One wrist and my other arm controlling his head. This way his free arm can only strike the back of my head, and its hard as a rock.

If I can get under his free arm I will and clinch around the torso, making sure to push upwards so that he cannot attack me with his fists. As my other arm wraps around his front it protects my face.

If I can get his head Im going to do it in one of three ways. A sideheadlock, a thai clinch, both hands pulling down hard on the back of his neck, elbows tight to protect inside. Or I will go for the Cobra Clutch. Its a RNC type manuever, I believe the BJJ term for it is Mata Leo. Anyways thats just a little idea of how I clinch up. Most any one of these situations is very short and followed by some sort of slam choke or series of strikes.

Like I said, your application was good. As for the Alive question, hey I had to ask. But just because I ask doesnt mean I presume Im the only one, as I know that that will never be the case. Apparently you have a pretty good study of my ideas from the things Ive said around here as you summed it up pretty well.

"The defensive Model you outlined seems Ideal.."
Well Thank you, like you said though, no one is picture perfect all the time. I also have a kind of "shuffle" when in a more upright position, a'la Bruce Lee., M. Ali. Etc. Tons of people say it doesnt work, tons of people do. I think it CAN or Cannot. Like your X Block I suppose.

About the elbow example, I never understood what the mystery was about. The Elbow retracts for more power, or the elbow is a wrist grab or the elbow is to someone behind you. Then why not train it as those things instead of labeling it a punch? TMA in general is bad about that sort of thing. Nothing is ever just direct, theres always some hidden bunkai, just comeforth and teach it is all Im saying.

One Technique. I used to think this way. Because I used to believe I could beat every opponent in one shot. Worked for a little while. Now, Im thinking about my fifth move by the time my first has made contact. I always have to have a coarse of action because I want to dictate what happens. If I can leave myself in a fairly uncompromising position, the better chance I have to stick roughly to that plan. Which is why I dont cross my arms or my feet. Those were some of the first things I was taught when I began to look outside of TMA and Ive stuck with it. If you ever have a chance to work with a skilled Wing Chun Practitioner then by all means do so. They can quickly show you why not to do so. They are big on trapping. JKD is getting less and less of it. Im using less myself. There are a few things I kept, but I try to keep things simple.
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316337 - 01/24/07 12:17 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
back at ya man, good discusion leads to a better grasp of the material. thanks for paying attention to what i have to say, your feed back is a great sounding board for me!

as for the "mysticism" surrounding much of the pratical application of traditional karate groups, i agree. alot of it is not tought for reasons far beyond my understanding. and your attitude is shared by many a karate ka who loves their art and is fed up with all the bs, now a days people like iain abernethy and geof tompson are making a living off of teaching form the heart and for the gut wrentching reality of real self defence. its alomst like a new wave in the karate world, its still on the up and it won't touch all pratictioners, but its putting the fear in the mcdojos that now their students are getting the courrage to ask more questions and take there tuition money else were.

about kata: it can be praticed and used like and other training tool or drill, you can have different objectives in mind and focus on any concept you feel like working on. like anything. as far as i understnad tai sabaki (body shifting) as it relates to kata, well its still a little foggy in my own head. as i understand it, the idea of body shifting and transition from one stane to another in kata is much more simple then many think. for example i'll use a "simple" combination from the first kata taught in my style, hiean shodan. the begining 2 moves are, a low "block" in a front stance followed by a steping punch again in a front stance. you often see this sequence preformed with one student defending against an attacker who is steping in with a long tellegraphed attack then steping back, real life expirence tells you this just doen't happen. hopefully they are traing this as a tool for increasing their speed in low stances, therefore in creasong their foot work speed, and posture and power. the way i prefer to interpret this sequence is as follows: you could be steping in to jam your opponents space and smothering his technique, the block, when the draw arm is made se of can range from a take down to an arm lock, or a low shot to the groin, almost a safe bet that ant one is going to bring up in there tracks. then by making use of the sometimes forgotten crecent step, you can tie up your opponents hands while to step arond his leg and preform an osoto gari (major outter leg reap) as your legs are doing there job, the punching hand would be striking with a close gut shot, from there it sweeps up his body and grips/strikes his throat hard to complete the throw. the stance trasition is used to teach the student ini which direction his body weight should be moving, and seeing that combat is a constantally moving and changing thing, the pauses between kata tecniques is poor realiaty training, kind of like the over emphasized sine wave movement in TKD forms, it has a place in the dojo. sensei Hidetaka Nishyama alwasy scolds his students when they preform kata saying they should flow like a river, the techniques preformed in the kata are juck like rocks or sticks, things in the way of the river, the river dosn't stop and then start again, it just flows on over to the next thing, crashing through obsticales. i really like that explination. i think it should be emphasized more. so that our kata flow more like tai chi, or other chinease gung fu forms.

as for the one technique theory, i used to romantisize this idea too. still do in alot of ways, but to me, it makes more sense to at least strive for it. i mean any one will tell you that the less time you spend in a fight the less likely yo are to get hurt, so training to end a fight fast is not a cruch, but only throwing one punch is. and truthfully my sparing has become more like fun over the past year, i really had to overhaul my own fighting style and force myself to keep attcking. in a turniment id rather have the ref give me a warning for being a little to aggressive then get the holy ghost knocked out of me because i threw one punch and expected the ref to save me. same goes for defending myself.

thanks about the application, its what i plan on working my students on as they progress, i want them to realize the gap between inch perfect preformance and what it really takes, and have them fill it with there own ideas.

even though you may not use the x block applcation, i'm happy you at least considered the idea behind it. thats what ticks me off the most, when people just shoot down what i say without really trying to see it my way, i feel like i try very hard to appreciate different points of view, different styles or anything and im glade you gave me the time of day, thanks again bud!

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#316338 - 01/24/07 01:08 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Shonuff,

Granted as a flich response, putting both hands crossed in front of your groin is better than being kicked there. I also accept that most Shotokan sparring involves little or no grappling of the kind I was describing as well as obviously no recognisable uchi/soto/age/juji uke techniques. However I find it very hard to see this as the original intent of the movement in the kata that you referenced because to do so would mean ignoring the surrounding movements and seeing one position in isolation. I cannot believe this is the way the kata were constructed. I find the idea of techniques flowing into each other (eg cover/strike/lock/trap/takedown) a more convincing explanation of sequential kata movements than taking one and finding an application for that on its own.

I will put the suggestion that I kick my training partners in the groin to test their reactions tonight and see if they agree to this kind of hardcore training!

B.

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#316339 - 01/25/07 12:37 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Student,

I particularly like the mention of using the transistion from stances to throw. Thats not something Ive considered before.

As for the stances being low and contributing to footwork, I give it a maybe. To me though, being in a more relaxed stance while applying my art, my feet move differently and so does my weight distribution, since Im not in the same low, or elongated stance. I do agree that a by product of that training would strengthen the muscles and work the balance, giving you the ability to get better results from your footwork training.

As far as training multiple applications in kata, I understand how it could be done, but you must admit that many students, especially beginners, dont eplore much outside what is taught them. Blindly teaching a kata with one application for something that has found to bear multiple answers isnt a good way to teach, IMO. I think if you are going to stick to tradition and teach kata, then you must take your time with it, so that a student can yeild all he can from his teachings.

One technique. Make no mistake, every strike or attempt at my opponent is meant to do structural damage of some type. I want to end it as quickly as possible of course but I dont rely on the one thing. If I punch, I punch again. Or I grab and slam or grab and break. Whatever the case may be, the first hit might have got the job done, but after several, I feel much better about turning my back and gettin out of dodge.

Great Discussion. Thanks.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316340 - 01/25/07 03:50 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
shoshinkan Offline
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'As for the stances being low and contributing to footwork, I give it a maybe. To me though, being in a more relaxed stance while applying my art, my feet move differently and so does my weight distribution, since Im not in the same low, or elongated stance. I do agree that a by product of that training would strengthen the muscles and work the balance, giving you the ability to get better results from your footwork training.'

im pretty much with you here Chen, I see NO benefits to footwork by training very low stances as a habbit.

application of progressive force - now we are talking and specifically in the grappling range, under pressure tends to work from a solid base,

example think of an untrained person pushing a car - wide/long legs, low centre of gravity etc etc.

Natural is what my karate is all about these days, and that means getting a shift on with footwork, hence we train dynamic sttepping as a core method.
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Jim Neeter

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#316341 - 01/25/07 08:20 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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well thanks,

i have to say it again about that stances, i feel the same way. while training in a low stance does have "x" benifets, i can see how training in the narutal stances are "closer" to reality and therefore definatly a mst if your to understand how to generate power at all ranges.

if you get the time to kill, check this site out...

http://blog.iainabernethy.com/

hes a guru when it comes to using shorin styles and applying them, just scroll down a little and take a look at the video posted there about a short application of a clasic reverse punch, knife hand block, and lunge punch. i think it will look closer to a "western combat" style then most would have thoght.

as beginers learning kata: its very true that most beginers are almost to scared to look for anything out side what they have been tought in trms of application or theory. however it's my beleife that its not the beginers place to ask to many questions, to many to the point where he fails to trust his instructor's wisdom. for example, while i was teaching hiean shodan to a new guy last night, i would go over each sequence preaching srtance transition, arm placement and posture, ect. and for each move i would breifly explain how they could be slightly altered to be answers for different attacks, but i told the student that using variations of a movement will come after he has a fair understand of the basic principals of movement and strength in general. the goal i train beginers towards is proper clasical exction of all the techniques, so that through the technique they learn power and speed, and through becoming familiar with certin kata and kihon pratice, they learn to, as mickey put it in on of the rocky movies, "snarl when they punch" i want them to understnad what intensity means, after they don't need to focus on there hands and feet anymore. once they get to this level, i'll open more class time to applying different movements in different ways. most drop out befor this though, as they don't see pratical application being praticed from day one, i feel thats its more right to teach them to understand the language their body speaks and to use it efficiantly first, befor we play.

we should spar sometie chen, lol, if were ever in the same time zone. we might learn something, or we might get into a cat fight,haha

yours in life
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#316342 - 01/25/07 08:34 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Victor Smith Offline
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A lot of quick considerations.

Low stances don’t work. As an Isshinryu stylist our basic front stance is more akin to a boxer’s stance than most styles. Long ago I had a discussion with a friend I was completing against at many tournament who was a Shotokan stylist. I tried explaining why Isshinryu must be better because of our higher stances allowing more mobility. He responded that I felt they were better than the lower Shotokan stances, and before I finished replying “Yes”, he exploded back into his front stance and then placed his foot in my mouth with a front kick. Lesson learned: always make sure you fully understand the capability of the person you’re trying to make points to before you make them. His Shotokan was and is very explosive, and stances are just tools, how you use them is the issue not which ones.

X-Block. Isshinryu contains the ‘x-block’ in kata Chinto, though I was never taught it as the block using the bottom of the ‘X’ formation to block say a kick. Rule, all block are strikes and or parries, all parries and strikes are blocks. We were taught it was a low block to a rising kick (not straight on) with an very quick following strike into the bone of the leg with the second piece of the block. So what looks like an “X” was a block/punch. There are various ways to use this against legs or the lower body, and there is a dynamic reason to have the punch cross the wrist of the other hand when striking, it more strongly aligns the strikers body behind the punch, to hit with greater power. In Chinto the ‘x-block’ is done in two directions, and one of the varieties of interpretation is using the initial strike to follow with a projection from the resulting arm lock.

From a broad view, x-blocks/strikes are special use techniques as opposed to general use techniques. They’re more situational in nature, and require higher level of training and experience to utilize correctly. Many of the skills in karate follow similar guidelines and unquestionably many don’t undergo the necessary skill development to use them more than just for exercise. But consider situational techniques did evolve because some situations could occur.

There is no guideline how kata applications should be taught. I personally don’t think much of the here is the kata now you take the time to figure out what to do with it, but many systems do teach that way.

The strongest model I know don’t train specific kata application until after reaching black belt training. In the prior ranks, situational self defense techniques are focused on.

Then there are different answers. Such as taking a kata move by more and exploring dozens of applications within each movement, and that also entails redefining what a movement within a kata represents on occasion. Other answers are to use kata as a technique encyclopedia and at each level of black belt training change the technique being studied. They are not better answers than just studying one application for each technique, they are philosophically different approaches to training. In any case correct skill development is required. Techniques must work and the goal is to take any technique and learn how to drop someone.

These courses of study are not intended to be quick answers for self defense. If local conditions are extreme, they would not be pursued for more strategic answers for the environment.

Some considerations,
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#316343 - 01/25/07 09:17 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Victor Smith]
student_of_life Offline
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i was begining to think you had retired victor. nice to hear from you again.
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#316344 - 01/25/07 02:26 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
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Ignore the surrounding movements!?!?! ME!?!?!

Herresy I tell you!

Believe me dude, I do take into account the surrounding movements, it's just that here I only discussed the technique and gave a synopsis of what happens after, without discussing where it came from. Also I probably apply those surrounding movements differently to you.
It was the surrounding movements that lead me to think that in those kata the app I described was the most relevant.

As I said I belive that each kata teaches a consistent theme or themes and you cannot get that from random single position applications.

When I first posted on this forum I got quite frustrated because kata application discussions often didn't go beyond the opening three moves of a form. Standing to attention alone (moving into a block if you were lucky) could be 50 lethal death moves. There was no need at all for the rest of the kata and that made no sense to me. I think this discussion on a single technique is longer than every discussion I've stated about a single kata as a whole.

As far as the low x-block goes I do wholeheartedly agree that there are other apps, but I do also think that sometimes a block is just a block, and sometimes that block teaches us more than some shoulder lock we already know how to do. Saying that, I was taught the low x-block was to be used as Victor described it, but then at one point I was taught all blocks were to be used like that.
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#316345 - 01/26/07 02:45 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Chen Zen Offline
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If we ever get the chance, Id love to take you up on the offer student and thanks for the link, Ill give it a look when Ive got time.

Victor, always nice to hear from you and very informative. I found one line in your post particularly interesting. Im going to parahrase it but you said "These courses (Karate) arent intended for quickly learning defense". Why? I Understand that karate is a fully capable self defense system and the heart of japanese arts. I would imagine at its conception that it was designed for the purpose of combat, and having stemmed from chinese arts that it would have had some sort of structured form for teaching purposes. So if this initial base form was designed for these purposes in a similar fashion to the procedure in which its taught now, why the change over the years?
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#316346 - 01/26/07 08:24 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Victor Smith Offline
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Chen Zen,

Why would karate be designed for a quick course of defense.

Of course we have almost nothing but the various oral histories to go on as the past instructors did a great job making sure nobody knew anything outside of those personally trained, so there is much speculation.

But for one thing, in the past 150 or so years when karate as we look at it today was defined, Okinawa wasn't a violent place. It wasn't a war zone (WWII excepted) and people didn't rush to find karate instructors to be safe.

If it does follow the Chinese models, they likewise are not quick systems to learn, many of them taking far longer than karate to develop because of the vaster depth of their systems of study.

Solely based on my experiences, it takes a great deal of time to give someone the skill and then the faith in that skill to use many of karate's application potentials. By inference that might explain why oral history tells us many instructors didn't get into the study of kata applications till the students had many years of training. Why give them what they can't perform, might be a reason.

But I don't focus much on the past, just what I've seen and what I teach.

For the record, too Karate has nothing to do with the Japanese systems of study, except it tried to blend into them beginning in the 20's and 30's in those arts that transplanted into Japan. Those blendings (rank, uniforms, organizations) didn't hit Okinawa till after WWII, in large part because Japan controlled the education system, and that they gave Okinawa to the Americans (coursg 'gave' isn't exactly the right word) and they finally got who was in charge - Japan in large part.

Outside of speculation, I reject anyone really knows why karate was developed, all we have is what has passed through many hands to today.

While interested in the past, my personal focus is how to make my students understand what I do and increase their potential.
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#316347 - 01/26/07 10:27 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
GriffyGriff Offline
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Whoa dudes you seem to be missing the point here.

Picture the scene....
You are about to be attacked by 2x (Austin Power) Mini-Me's.
They are running with wild abandonment towards you and in parallel.
You wish to dispose of them quickly without breaking your stride.
When they are within striking distance you quickly use the movement of the lower X-Block to simultaneously punch each of the little miscreants in the side of their heads, thus forcing them to change their evil little trajectories, outwards and behind you.
You walk on, whilst they career out of control behind you.
....
Simple...

Job's a good-un.

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#316348 - 01/26/07 11:37 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: GriffyGriff]
student_of_life Offline
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teach me your ways oh great one!!, for thou art so much more then i!! i wish to learn from one who has mastered the way!!
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#316349 - 01/28/07 12:24 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Steel91 Offline
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I think the technique can be used practically, but not for blocking a kick, I like the way it was used in oldman's picture, It could aslo be used against a knife when someone comes in for an overhead strike (like a hammer fist) And you catch his wrist, or maybe a little further back on the arm to avoid the knife more while you bring it down and rotate the knife into the opponent's own stomach. (I haven't tried this at full speed yet but it's a reasonable suggestion I think) And just in case no one else mentioned it, the cross block is called Juji-uke in Japanese just to let you know.
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#316350 - 01/30/07 12:04 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Unsu Offline
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About five years ago I saw Ryron Gracie at a tournament slap on this wicked standing cross-collar choke first by gaining a hold on the lapel (deep) with his right hand on the right gi lapel, then securing the left hand under the other on the left lapel, deep. He swept the guy at the same time (a seen in the Naihanchi "returning wave" kick) and this brought his "x-block" to a low position, he got his hooks in from the guard but the guy was already tapping as he was going down from the sweep. His own weight sunk it in.

The year before this I was training Chinto at my sensei's dojo and asked him for the interpretation where you high x-block/strike, pulling your hands towards you and spreading the elbows while throwing a flying knee to a low front kick. The end of the sequence looks like a low x-block thrusting outward. One of his explanations for the analysis was exactly what Ryron did a year later in an "alive" setting as the JKDers say.

Ain't nothing new under the sun, son. Too bad real karate is real scarce. Btw who is Ian Abernathy? One of the English bunkai bandwagoneers?

My $ 0.02...


Edited by Unsu (01/30/07 12:05 AM)

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#316351 - 01/30/07 02:22 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
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Im not even a karate guy and Ive heard of Ian Abernathy, figured you would have heard that name before. As for his bandwagon status i couldnt say. Perhaps you could?

And please, dont call me son, I find it demeaning. Thank you.
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#316352 - 01/30/07 03:05 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
shoshinkan Offline
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Ian Abernathy Sensei is one of the most prominant UK karateka for sure,

due to his excellent karate bunkai books and dvds - with respect,if thats your thing.

I have to say his ability is extremley high as well, and he is a very nice guy.
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#316353 - 01/31/07 07:44 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Unsu Offline
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Quote:

Im not even a karate guy and Ive heard of Ian Abernathy, figured you would have heard that name before. As for his bandwagon status i couldnt say. Perhaps you could?

And please, dont call me son, I find it demeaning. Thank you.




Yeah I've heard of him. What's his background?

The "son" thing is just a figure of speech, bruh'. I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, just writing. Somebody needs to hold their horses...

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#316354 - 01/31/07 07:46 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: shoshinkan]
Unsu Offline
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Quote:

Ian Abernathy Sensei is one of the most prominant UK karateka for sure,

due to his excellent karate bunkai books and dvds - with respect,if thats your thing.

I have to say his ability is extremley high as well, and he is a very nice guy.




Cool. I don't doubt any of it. How long ago did he start talking about bunkai? Is that the way he has always approached his karate training? Does he do the Okinawan kata or Shotokan forms? How do you get proper bunkai from derivative forms? Do the long, wide stances, exaggerated movements, stiffness, linear aspects from kendo, changed waza and the rest that comes with Japanese kata make that truly possible? What is his interpretation of the low x-block? 'Nuff respect...


Edited by Unsu (01/31/07 07:53 PM)

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#316355 - 01/31/07 10:02 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
student_of_life Offline
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i don't know how long he has been focusing on bunkai study, but i can say that it is his "claim to fame", buy that i mean, thats what he's known for. his specialty.

i guess he started to focus on applying kata movements after he found that what he was being taught was mostly crap, so he shifted his focus??, can't say for sure. please don't think im putting words in his mouth.

as far as i know he teches mostly shotokan kata, but i think i read somewhere that he teaches some wado ryu kata too??, im not sure, thats just floating around in my memory for some reason.

get proper bunkai from deritive forms?, i know they are based on the okinawin kata, so the bunkai will be "similar", but since iain and the other UK bunkai nuts have done alot of study into it, they prety much come up with "their own" in other words, what they think is good application for the move. they seem to know their stuff, still i don't take it as gospel or anything, but definatly good advice.

-quote- Do the long, wide stances, exaggerated movements, stiffness, linear aspects from kendo, changed waza and the rest that comes with Japanese kata make that truly possible?-end quote-

short answer: yes, but the way you describe it as being stiff, its likely you have your mind made up, our your mind up your arse.

www.iainabernethy.com check out his article page, and read the sections on application of the heian kata, and the basics to understanding bunkai. i don't feel like feeding you the words.
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#316356 - 02/01/07 03:17 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Unsu Offline
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Loc: San Antone, Tejas
I think that what I've seen, read and heard has made up my mind. I have always known who he was, but I wondered if any of that mattered to you learned martialists? As for my mind being up my arse I don't think so. I think the problem with many of these opinions is that they are uninformed. People are basing things on what they have experienced, which is basically a variation on the same weak theme. So what is your take on the low x-block seen in derivative kid kata, but missing from the original shuri te or goju adult kata? I've done schoolboy (-do) karate and karate with the original intent, and unless you know the older forms or the forms with the proper tachi kata, kamae kata, sound biomechanics and so on how can you even begin to make an educated guess much less speak on what was intended through kids forms? Do you understand my stance and stubborness? Now get your head out of Iain's jock. He is another hope boy forcing square pegs into round holes. His demeanor means squat if he is just guessing. "Niceness" doesn't equate to knowledge. Which is very evident on these forums. He is making money and garnering praise based on a gimmick and ignorance, imo.

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#316357 - 02/01/07 09:26 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Barad Offline
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Posts: 427
Unsu,

So you know of Abernethy now or you don't? Have a look at his website anyway:

http://www.iainabernethy.com/

He has free ebooks on his Heian interpretations and a few articles on his methodology, a lot of which I find very plausible.

Obviously you are the sole guardian of the truth within kata but who knows, you might find something you agree with?

As for "guessing", anyone alive today who offers bunkai from kata is guessing and reverse engineering. There is no real proof for anyone's interpretation, not yours or mine or your teacher's or mine. If it works against habitual acts of violence and against a resisting partner and it is not too complicated to be used under pressure, then that is fine for me. Anyone who swears blind that they and only they have the holy grail is probably selling snakeoil.

You talk of "sound biomechanics"? Very traditional Okinawan sounding...

As it happens, the Gracie x block application you describe was very similar to what I described in an earlier post on this thread, and that based on my practice of Shotokan Gankaku, not Chinto on which Gankaku is based, but I must have stolen the idea off you somewhere, whoever you are.

B.

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#316358 - 02/01/07 01:05 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
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Unsu
What you have seen read and heard has made up your mind. Do you think it is any different for anyone else here? We all base our answers on our own experiences. I notice you go on around here talking about TRUE karate, as if you were the only person to study an art with merit. Yet Ive never seen anything you posted to be astounding or extraordinary compared to any of the other karateka here. Why? I think its likely due to the fact that what you train is probably very similar to what a lot of other people here do. Its just TRUE karate cause YOU do it. Unfortunately Im not buying it, and apparently no one else is either.
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#316359 - 02/01/07 03:21 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

-quote- Do the long, wide stances, exaggerated movements, stiffness, linear aspects from kendo, changed waza and the rest that comes with Japanese kata make that truly possible?-end quote-

short answer: yes, but the way you describe it as being stiff, its likely you have your mind made up, our your mind up your arse.




So, are you saying what is generally accepted as Shotokan is not stiff?

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#316360 - 02/01/07 03:45 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
student_of_life Offline
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man o man, the way you make me out im already starting to think i am a dumb ass! what did i say that would make a sane person think i had my head down iain's jock? i said he had some good stuff? or was it whan i said that i don't take him as the gospel?? cause i think your looking at my post through some beer goggles.

school boy karate?, right i forgot, shotokan is a joke of a martial art. i'll just go burn my gi and show up on your door step begging to be shown the error of my ways.

god knows what you'll make that out to be. ah ha! you've won!! you alwasy win!! your the best at everything.

we do have something in commen though, the things i've seen and expirenced make up my mind too, and i hope that the people who read your posts will make thier own minds up too.

you actually think that there is no use pratical self defensive use for shotokan kata? thats fine man, the sun still rises tomorrow. you said what you thought, i guess, regreatbly you have the right.

i don't like you, every thing you say just adds to that, im done with you, i don't have to prove a thing to ya so i won't.

yours in life
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#316361 - 02/01/07 05:51 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Shonuff Offline
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Hi all,

I'm personally not an Abernathy fan. His first book, Karate's grappling methods purported to have the true applications of kata. I bought the book and was sorely disappointed to find incomplete kata analyses and a bunch of half arsed jujutsu stuff. I do not believe karate is a grappling art (grappling is not the base nor the aim IMO) and I never will and that was the jist of the book. Basically Mr Abernathy jumped on the grappling bandwagon like so many others after the Gracies kicked ass in the first UFC. I respect his work and his cause and he has many good ideas but with each new work he published in his early days he promised answers which it then turned out that the answers were in the upcoming video series etc etc..

I'm sure he's gotten better over the years but he left a bad taste in my mouth. especially after the magazine article where he said blocking a punch is impossible, then in his second photo sequence he opened his defence with "block the punch".

As for the rigidity of "what is generally accepted as Shotokan"... In my opinion alot of it does look stiff. Because it might look stiff does that mean it doesn't work or the practitioners cant use it, or the actual martial artists who make the art their own cant adapt and change it??? I once trained with a guy who complained about shotokan being too hard and rigid and how soft flowing circular blocks were much better. I argued that that was crap spouted ultimately because it sounded good but in the grand scheme meant nothing. I sparred him as rigidly as I knew how and after a minute or less he had to stop due to numb bruised extremities - broken fangs. The rope dart may look cool and take more skill to weild, but in a fight give me a club any day!

Can one determine original intent from altered forms...? Wouldnt that depend on how the forms were altered. Also may alteration not suggest a change in the intent, discarding the mk 1 version for a turbo charged mk 2? Matsumura and his ilk were just people, I dont see why people overlook the idea that some of their apps or fighting concepts were impractical or even just unique to them and not sound for general consumption. Besides I'm with student. I've encountered nothing but talk with regards to original intent or true karate or whatever other ego stroking terms you wish to use. In this time of youtube and net videos, Show me something impressive or even just interesting that I couldnt get from any other Karate school and I would believe it, but so far all is just talk.

And Unsu, just because you weren't good enough to understand "School boy" Karate (a term which by the way has only ever been applicable to the Pinan kata) doesn't mean that no one else can. You might have needed spoon feeding from something more "real" but there are those out there whose perceptiveness, skill and open mindedness allow them to work wonders with whatever tools they are given. Here's a tip from the anals of "School boy Karate" wisdom:

The outward form is a mask to blind those who look from afar. The closer one gets the clearer the true image becomes until the mask falls away altogether.

Meaningless crap? Could be. Or perhaps you are just far away.
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#316362 - 02/01/07 06:30 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
shoshinkan Offline
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His core system is Wado Ryu, but I think he is well versed in most mainstream systems, he certainly trains hard and is very capable.

of course it's obvious he is commercially driven, but he is also a very nice guy with some excellent karate.

Would I train with him, poberly not, just not what I do (I have enough training going on anyhow, within shorin ryu),

would I recomend him to others, absolutly he realy is very good,
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#316363 - 02/01/07 07:04 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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a reminder to all, please keep polite on this forum, if you dont then action will simply be taken.

we are adults, we all have different views and expierience, get over it.

I have taken a fair stance on rubbish being posted for a while,

this stops now so re-read your post before you hit 'post' please, change it if you feel it would be inappropiate to post on a public, varied member forum.
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#316364 - 02/01/07 07:56 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Shonuff, actually okinawan karate is more like a morning star or chain and iron ball than a rope dart. So you can have your club and see if it can beat my morning star. The key to okinawan karate is that it has both structure and fluidity. It does not take things to the extreme. For example it has the good qualities of Shotokan's hard rigid freight train style as well as many of the circular and fluid benefits of some Chinese martial arts. Therefore, by its nature, to take its techniques and not fully understand their execution makes it very hard to undersand their application. In fact, the application of Shorin Ryu technique is dependent upon proper technique execution.

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#316365 - 02/01/07 09:00 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
WuXing Offline
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Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
My martial arts is like a Guisarme. Or a +2 Battle Axe of sharpness, made from mithril. It's lighter than other martial arts, and has a higher probability of dealing a critical hit.

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#316366 - 02/01/07 11:32 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Unsu Offline
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Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
I really like Medualnet's take on it all. He does real karate. I don't know the guy but he gives me evidence in the things he writes. The cat is smart and knows real karate.

I am not the sole authority on all good karate. I just have knowledge of what it is I've done, which happens to be good schoolboy karate and good old style karate. Most people do so-so karate, regardless of lineage.

So I liked Shorinkan and Matsubayashi. They are both really good styles of karate. Coming from beyond a journeyman's understanding of karate with a more modern slant I thought the same as the rest of you. No one can ever say that Shorinkan and Matsubayashi are not good systems. The thing is many of the principles and techs taught in those styles made no sense. Matsumura Seito as I learned it just made more real world sense. And these styles are apex systems imo. So if you have a similar background, one which encompasses GOOD modern karate and GOOD old style karate (read as "Okinawan" and/or "Real"), then I can respect your opinion. Otherwise you may be a natural athlete and a good fighter, but if you are a karate-ka then you are probably like that because of nature not nurture so much. It really is not hard to understand. Are there good Shotokan dojo and sensei? Of course? Does that system teach the true ADULT Okinawan karate or is it modified like Funakoshi and his senior students have said? Hmmm....

As for Students reply, it lacked overwhelming grammatical errors and used pretty good syntax this time around. Makes me think he didn't even write it . Regardless my use of the word "biomechanics" in the old style karate context seems to be confusing him. I understand. Does your karate use sound biomechanics and physics? Do you do your jodan uke at more than a 45 degree angle? Yepper. The thing is Machimura never used that word. He just helped create pretty sound Sui-di with really sound principles. Ones which hold up to the modern understanding of biomechanics. Do you know how I know? Because the karate I have learned is very intact. Not a lot of Funakoshi-types dismantling it in order to make it a "-DO" vs. a "-Jutsu".

You know Funakoshi never meant for his karate to have original intent. Just a sportified Japanese intent. He says as much over and over. He wanted staying power witjout the depth. He wanted a semblance, not a true form. You guys do understand this right? I don't doubt with a hella lotta guess work you could come up with similar "bunkai"- oyo and kihon- as the original kata. But you would have to change the stances, the waza, the punching, the kicking mechanics and the fact that Shotokan was NEVER meant for self-protection let alone self- preservation. Kata is not for qigong, biomechanics and other physical principles are completely fallacious and so on. This goes for most styles of karate, especially (but not excluding completely) Okinawan Karate.

In My Honest Opinion.

So believe what you want. Some of us just know. You can learn or you can make your wants reality. Most people do go on faith not fact, myth versus concrete evidence. No need to try and do any different. You have to have the capacity to do that in the first place. Your mind, your senses and YOU have to be sharp. Most just aren't and that's that. Sounds arrogant, huh? But it is oh so true.

Some time ago I received a PM asking me where was my proof that the Ryukyu Is. had contact with other seafaring nations including the Siamese (the Thai people). It is just true because the evidence is there in the lessons of real karate (Okinawan). Other nations like Indonesia and even Vietnam and the Philippines made contact with the Okinawans. They all were seafarers. How do I know this? Because I lived in SE ASIA for near a decade and all of these people knew of the others before there was mass communication. Plus, it's what I've learned from various teachers since beginning REAL karate in the early 1980s.

Ain't nothing new under he sun, son. IMVHO...

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#316367 - 02/02/07 12:06 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
steelwater Offline
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Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 222
Interesting bunkai I've seen performed for front stance (and we train in our school): Besides generating power from the hip, front stance is used for control of attacker. Your knee is slammed into their knee on either the outside or inside (causes similiar effect) and they buckle and/or fall into your strike. There are other ones we train, but this one is particularly impressive when done correct.

Bunkai for lower X-Block: Grappling technique. Arms crossed up behind opponent's head, forming an "X" with the fists facing up. Rotate both arms downward, use stance to apply extreme amount of weight, pulling head down and causing opponent to bend over and forming the lower X-block.

Take it as you like. I've seen them performed, attempted myself with success. It's hard to explain online.
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#316368 - 02/02/07 02:31 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
medulanet Offline
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Actually, Unsu is right about contact with the thais. That is probably where they got their roundhouse kick among other things. It is not contained in kata, but is a part of the kihon of okinawan karate. In fact, I believe Patrick McCarthy wrote a post on E-Budo not too long ago confirming the exchange of martial techniques with the Thais as well as evidence of similar techniques and principles in both okinawan karate and muay thai or perhaps the older style muay boran or whatever it was they were calling it at that time. I think you will find some other FA.com guys commenting and saying similar things as well.

For you guys that may not know, take a look at these.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22640

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35717&page=1&pp=15

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#316369 - 02/02/07 08:55 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: steelwater]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Steelwater,

At last something we agree on (the bunkai you describe is what I had in mind in an earlier post on this thread referring to Heian Yondan.)

B.

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#316370 - 02/02/07 08:58 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Out of interest, why would a core Okinawan technique not appear in any of the kata? The only "roundhouse" I can think of in kata is-ironically-in Unsu and is actually a take down from the floor, not kicking as such.

B.

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#316371 - 02/02/07 09:21 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
steelwater Offline
On the Ansatsuken installment-plan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 222
Barad,
It's nice to see that we did. You are correct also. That is the bunkai we practice for Heian Yondan.
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#316372 - 02/02/07 02:28 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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Posts: 1032
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you said:

So, are you saying what is generally accepted as Shotokan is not stiff?

now theres a dangerous question. im gonna say what i think though, and say someone pratcing shotokan makes it as stiff as they want. i can certinly see where your coming from in that alot of the guys i train with and see training else were do look "stiff", but you have to understand that what you call stiff we call not stiff, and what you you might call "fluid" we would call sloppy.

thats just an example now, im not calling names or throwing mud. stiff is a negative word to use, no one on earth would purposfully say " i want to be rigid and box like", shotokan guys don't move like you do, and we still train for power,speed and explosiveness. flow from one move to another is always diserable, and we of coarse train for it, we just have a different view of what stiff, and fluid is.

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#316373 - 02/02/07 02:44 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
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I think to call Shotokahn stiff is a huge disservice and inaccurate statement. You cant simply call things on what they appear to be at first glance. Without knowing the various intricacies of any given system, ging an opinion based solely on being a spectator would have to be wrong,IMO.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316374 - 02/02/07 02:55 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
student_of_life Offline
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i gues i made yet another mistake, im not done with ya bud.

you make an awefull lot of presumptions about my karate. your use of the word biomechanics is confusing me eh? i guess i've never herd this term during my training, or at any seminar, or ever? wow, news to me? its commen sense to make proper use the of body and its limitations and abilities for any activity. every martial arts style and instrctor teaches how to use biomechanics, its just how its presented or interpreted thats makes the difference. of coarse i've herd all about biomectrics, i train with message therapists, phyiso therapists, and sports therapists. and i'll be working on my understanding of it till i get put in a pine box.

JKA karate has been researched and alterd by kineslology experts to ensure that it is every thing that it should be in terms of power,speed, and stability. but it dosn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how the body should be used, and after a period of time, every one will learn to make what the do better. not every thing you talk about is that far over my little shotokan head my man.

karate has changed alot since funakoshi set up in japan. its not what he intended it to be. i don't pratice what he tought, i pratice an interprtation of his ideas that has evoloved over time, and through research and constant practice.

what i pratice is intended to be used for self defence and self preservation, its our primary goal. it seems life gave us shotokan boys leamons, and and now we have shotokan leasmons, but their our leamons, and we love them and use them when we need to.

the root of your argument is that this is better then that, and that almost makes a good argument.

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#316375 - 02/03/07 06:57 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Med,
Even when those weapons were prevalent people had there preferences. My point was not to agree that Shotokan is rigid at all, simply that hardness or stiffness was not necessarily bad if you knew how to work with it.

I often hear Okinawan Karateka talk about the subtlety's of their arts but When it comes to Shotokan if you dont see it at first glance its not there. Our subtlety's are actually subtle, as such not everyone gets them. Soft and fluid is as much Shotokan as any okinawan or chinese art. It is all there on display in the kata. The very fact that I can see it and use it and you cnt is proof in itself. Just as I don't know a thing about Shorin ryu's subtlety's, I dont claim they are not there.
Plus many of the fashionable stylisations of shotokan such as over long stances, aren't true to the art. Long stances are as useful as any other type of stance if used correctly. Like the club and the morning star there are different ways to fight.
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#316376 - 02/03/07 06:58 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: WuXing]
Shonuff Offline
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Wu Xing, I want to train your art!!!
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#316377 - 02/03/07 07:04 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Shonuff Offline
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Unsu,

First show me evidence of Karate's original intent. Then Show me one quote where Funakoshi says he does not wish his karate to have original intent.

I'm not saying different, I would just like for once to have some back up to those claims.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#316378 - 02/03/07 12:01 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shonuff, I hope your Shotokan is as you say it is. I personally wish all karate was as good as karate can be. The truth of the matter is that most Matsubayashi (my style) guys just don't get it either. Not that I do, but I am on the path. Actually okinawan karate is not about subtlety, when done correctly what you see is what you get. Its about natural movement. Now western people move a lot differently from the okinawans. Much of the style is cultural, which is a main aspect which makes it work properly. However, when it left Okinawa the Uchinanchu cultural aspects of the art was replaced with the Japanese culture. Therefore, it is hard for Gendai karate to have the "original intent" that everyone is talking about simply because it is now a completely different art. Gendai karate can have its own intent, but unless it reverts back to what it was it will never have the intent of okinawan karate or uchinandi. I hope your stances are not too low to be functional, I hope you have no tension during your techniques(not even upon impact as some say is correct), I hope you work on hugging trees and carrying large bowls (meaning keeping your chest concave rather than sticking it out and being convex), I hope your art has all of the many other qualities that make okinawan karate technique execution what it is so the apps will work. The same qualities that make the low x-block work when used properly.

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#316379 - 02/03/07 12:59 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Chen Zen Offline
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I agree. There isnt a classical art out there that displays "original Intent". The fact of the matter is, the moment an art is transfered from founder to student, that art changes. How much or how little depends on the quality of the teacher and student. However, even when you have the best of both participants, there is still change. Now considering how old an art is, and how many times it switched hands before it was taught to you, I would venture to say that your or anyones practice today is vastly different than what was done in the beginning.
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#316380 - 02/03/07 01:07 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
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Yes, however, I believe there are those few out there who do understand okinawan karate as well as its original intent. And by that I mean that of Sokon Matsumura, Kosaku Matsumora, etc. who were practicing the art in the 1800's and bodyguards to the king and regents. It was actually Sokon Matsumura who created what is generally excepted today as karate and as the head bodyguard he instructed the others who most likely had previous training in what was probably Tode or whatever back then. It is not that our karate should look exactly like what his did, but that his fighting principles remain intact. And this requires the principles of technique execution to remain intact as well. These are alive and well, however, not widespread.

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#316381 - 02/03/07 01:17 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Chen Zen Offline
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But as a system changes, and the culture around it changes, wouldnt those principles have to change with them? Also the principles of technique execution would have to vary, at least to some degree, from one person to the next. I know that not every student does things the same. Later when these students become instuctors, wouldnt that inherently change the system? Perhaps not enough for your average outsider to see the difference but the subtle nuances that a seasoned MAist would recognize?
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#316382 - 02/03/07 02:03 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
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Yes, some do change it, however, this is where kata comes into the equation. If instructed properly the basic principles of kata do not change. For example, have the basics of a hook, uppercut, or jab changed in the last 100 years? As we advance our karate improves, it does not stay the same. However, its basic foundation should remain the same. Shotokan and its deriviatives would be an example of what happens when those basic principles are changed. However, when you have someone performing the old style kata/karate it is unmistakeable. And then when you see them utilize it in combat it is unforgettable.

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#316383 - 02/04/07 12:34 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Chen Zen Offline
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So Shotokahn or its dirivitives changes these base forms and thats where the huge difference is? Im not a karateka and I never have been though I have worked with many of them. Also, at one time I was a TMA. I studied Moo Duk Kwan for some time. Although we may had have slight variations from one kata to the next, the fighting style itself did not display any differences within the students from one school to the next. I dont understand why it would. So the pattern has changed. Arent the same techniques found in the system, regardless of being "out of order" from your own branch of karate?

I also wonder about the effectiveness of preservation when it comes to kata. I know many of the subtle changes or different techniques I often saw in the kata were from different perspectives on how things should be done. Every martial artist strives to make his art his own. When he has done so it is not because he conform to the system, but because he molded the system to his needs. I dont think this change could be stopped.
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#316384 - 02/04/07 11:14 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
Unsu Offline
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Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

Out of interest, why would a core Okinawan technique not appear in any of the kata? The only "roundhouse" I can think of in kata is-ironically-in Unsu and is actually a take down from the floor, not kicking as such.

B.




You're right, and Unsu is a Shotokan kata. BTW the mawashi geri is not seen in some Okinawan styles as a core technique. The ubiquity of mae geri is even more interesting. As a sound and often under utilized tactic the low front kick leaves you less exposed and more balanced than other kicks might. Changing a low front kick to a low roundhouse takes a very minor adjustment. Changing a low front kick to a kick check is easy to visualize. Individual imagination, adaptation and sound kihon training all help provide options. Specifics are seen in kumite/partner drills and other aspects of training.
Kata allows for options through sound positioning, proper biomechanics and by providing specific physical prompts to varied responses trained in other manners. Intent is intact if the spirit, moderate stances and functionality are intact. Notice I use the word "spirit" in place of Funakoshi's use of the word "form" which is the shell not the essence.

I am not saying Shotokan is not good Japanese karate-do. It's just not good Okinawan karate. So I really don't care about Iain Abernathy's Shotokan attempt at bunkai-jutsu. I want to know what you guys have learned from your lessons.

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#316385 - 02/04/07 11:46 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
MattJ Offline
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Quote:

I want to know what you guys have learned from your lessons.




This is really what martial arts training comes down to, IMHO.
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#316386 - 02/05/07 01:33 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Unsu Offline
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Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

Unsu,

First show me evidence of Karate's original intent. Then Show me one quote where Funakoshi says he does not wish his karate to have original intent.

I'm not saying different, I would just like for once to have some back up to those claims.




Okey-dokey. I'll go one better. Let's let Funakoshi himself explain to you the difference (c. early 1900s):

"Since Karate is ever-advancing, it is no longer possible to speak of the Karate of today and the Karate of a decade ago in the same breath... Karate in Tokyo today is almost completely different in form from what was earlier practiced in Okinawa..."

This next paragraph speaks to the loss of essence with retention of the "form" or apparent similarity to its "jutsu" cousin on Okinawa:

"Precisely because it has its own life , 'do' is subject
to the inevitable cycle of growth and decline. It is ever-changing, but only in its outer form. The basic nature of 'do' remains immutable."

-G. Funakoshi "Karate-do Nyumon"


If you want to know why I question the lessons learned in Shotokan training, all you have to do is look at what Funakoshi did to an effective self-preservation art. The above excerpt is quoted at the beginning of one of his seminal publications, "Karate Jutsu". If you have the book you'll notice the very Shorin Ryu looking stances, names, philosophies and waza. You will find a section on Tegumi throws.

He is 100% correct to surmise that with the shell you could continuously refill the vessel. It's a pretty good postulate, but not for karate's original intent or essence. Adaptation in order to make something better or more effective is smart. Change for the sake of fitting in, to make it less potent or fixin' what ain't broke is not smart IMO. EVER.

But Funakoshi O'Sensei WAS smart. He could give the people of Japan an art adapted to the Japanese way of doing things. Okinawa was after all now becoming very Japanese. In order to prevent China Hand's extinction he compromised. In modern street terminology they call it "selling out". At the same time he preserved some semblance of the fighting and self-betterment art he loved so much. It would give Okinawan-type karate the notariety he felt it deserved. This is what made the man great; his foresight.

Later you have many of his students adding their own signature to the karate they learned from him. This includes everyone from Enoeda to Mas Oyama. Because they didn't train like one should in order to learn the advanced lessons of karate, they used stop-gap measures and assumption in order to replace the lost or untold relevance. They began using stories of how karate was fought from a horse stance, because the Japanese Samurai used karate while riding horseback. To this day you have this Japanese racist interjection when it comes to retelling the students karate's history. Funakoshi even began to assume in "Karate Jutsu" that karate may just be a subset of JJJ/AJJ. Some influence is true, but it is not JJ.

The fallacies abound in many karate styles, especially in the 4 so-called MAJOR styles- Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, Shotokan and Goju Ryu. How the heck are you gonna even begin to call that diluted schoolboy stuff MAJOR? The major styles are Okinawan Goju Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Motobu-Ryu, Okinawan Kenpo, Okinawan Shito Ryu and Shorin Ryu. The derivatives, their Japanese counterparts are the minor styles in more ways than ten. IMHO...

The main point I constantly push is that drift is a consequence of time. All things change however subtly. Those subtle changes often occur naturally and do not need to be forced. This leads to adaptation that is good. Like incorporating the roundhouse kick into your Tode/karate.

Medula said that he disagreed with my subtlety spiel. Unless you understand what is missing you can't appreciate or even recognize the lack of detail, mostly in kata. Shoshinkan and I have been corresponding concerning the lack of detail in his kata training, and he's an Okinawan karate-ka. That's why we have to protect against useless change.

If you need more proof I have plenty. If you look at his later publications, Funakoshi claims to have made karate better by making it less barbaric and more palatable for the masses. He claims that it will make strong Japanese soldiers out of karate trained schoolboys. He lengthened the stances, omitted kobudo, changed the kata to Japanese names, took out the grappling and so on.

He wasn't the only person to do or say this. One of his teachers, Itosu, said the same thing. I think that is why Choshin Chibana and Yuchuko Higa strayed from their schoolboy karate and went back to the essence.

Funakoshi changed it drastically for no reason that is apparent other than he wanted it "schoolified" and "Japanised". He was a very good businessman when it came to making models, but not when it came to getting compensated.

I will not expand on the rigid comment. If you've seen most Shotokan you'll find that it has a retro-progression which counter to Okinawan training. From hard and stiff, to tense and harder, to ultra linear and too damned hard to be beyond intermediate karate.

That doesn't mean there are no good Shotokan-ka. There were and are quite a few, but I do find it odd that even most of the leaders and pioneers in modern sport and ring karate aka. American kickboxing were Okinawan karate types (especially Shorin Ryu) and even TSD (Korean Shotokan) practitioners. As supposed forerunners of jiyu kumite, the Shotokan guys couldn't even dominate the ring aspect of karate. Think of the percentages. How is that even possible?

Shotokan is good Japanese karate-do, but it is inadequate Okinawan karate-do or karate-jutsu. It never had the intent and after the Japanese students got a hold of it, it became a Japanese Budo, not Okinawan Budo No Bugei. If it was so different from the Okinawan variants in the early 1900s how much more different is it now?

Most of you will be resistant to change when it comes to looking at the claims of most karate styles and their validity as true fighting and self-betterment arts. You will claim it's all the same, even if you have zero proof. Then they will say that the changes found in their karate were for the good of all and to make karate more real. If you do the real how ya' gonna get "realer"? Plastic begets plastic.

Most will claim that all paths lead to the top of THE mountain. I'll disagree and say they all lead to the top of A mountain. If it's the right mountain, was the path circuitous? Why do more work when there is a better way to do it. There is always the better and the best amongst the good. You guys will figure it out soon enough, if you research and test others opinions like you do mine. I don't think I have any monopoly on anything. I just got lucky to train with really good old-style and original intent teachers.

Have a great week party people...


Edited by Unsu (02/05/07 01:48 AM)

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#316387 - 02/05/07 02:19 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
shoshinkan Offline
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Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Nice post Bryan,

Regarding your comments -

'Shoshinkan and I have been corresponding concerning the lack of detail in his kata training, and he's an Okinawan karate-ka. That's why we have to protect against useless change.'

Slow down a little there mate, im very happy with the detail in my kata, so is my Sensei, its functional.

You kindly have given me your thoughts based on your expeirience, and that is appriciated as I welcome that, and have several Senior karateka share what they think.

Personally I feel the 'details' is less important than the just doing, details come over time, I had 10 years of precision training and now im about as far away from that as a karateka can get!
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#316388 - 02/05/07 02:28 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: shoshinkan]
Unsu Offline
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Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

Nice post Bryan,

Regarding your comments -

'Shoshinkan and I have been corresponding concerning the lack of detail in his kata training, and he's an Okinawan karate-ka. That's why we have to protect against useless change.'

Slow down a little there mate, im very happy with the detail in my kata, so is my Sensei, its functional.

You kindly have given me your thoughts based on your expeirience, and that is appriciated as I welcome that, and have several Senior karateka share what they think.

Personally I feel the 'details' is less important than the just doing, details come over time, I had 10 years of precision training and now im about as far away from that as a karateka can get!




There was a lot I noticed and it did look to have the FORM of our kata, but the subtleties were missing. I'm sure Lindsey would agree, although you did look pretty good compared to that TonyU. guy and the other Florida cat on there. Thank God! Keep representing your style well!!! Peace...

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#316389 - 02/05/07 12:07 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Shonuff Offline
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Posts: 603
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Quote:



Okey-dokey. I'll go one better. Let's let Funakoshi himself explain to you the difference (c. early 1900s):

"Since Karate is ever-advancing, it is no longer possible to speak of the Karate of today and the Karate of a decade ago in the same breath... Karate in Tokyo today is almost completely different in form from what was earlier practiced in Okinawa..."

This next paragraph speaks to the loss of essence with retention of the "form" or apparent similarity to its "jutsu" cousin on Okinawa:

"Precisely because it has its own life , 'do' is subject
to the inevitable cycle of growth and decline. It is ever-changing, but only in its outer form. The basic nature of 'do' remains immutable."

-G. Funakoshi "Karate-do Nyumon"





I disagree with your interpretation of this quote, but I respect your attempt at justifying your claims, thank you.
If something changes only in it's outer form then surely it is not changing in it's inner essence. I don't quite see how you believe funakoshi is talking about the retention of the outer form when the quote states that the outer form is changing. In both paragraphs it is the form and form alone that funakoshi says is changing. To me that tells of an external, superficial change.

I personally don't disagree that Shotokan is different from its Okinawan forerunners, but I've yet to be shown any evidence that anyone has the original intent of Karate intact in what they do. All I have is talk by some people who say that what the rest of the world does is wrong. Even if it were true the only reason I can see for such blunt, unconstructive and unjustified criticism is to stroke ones own ego.

Quote:


Later you have many of his students adding their own signature to the karate they learned from him. This includes everyone from Enoeda to Mas Oyama. Because they didn't train like one should in order to learn the advanced lessons of karate, they used stop-gap measures and assumption in order to replace the lost or untold relevance. They began using stories of how karate was fought from a horse stance, because the Japanese Samurai used karate while riding horseback. To this day you have this Japanese racist interjection when it comes to retelling the students karate's history. Funakoshi even began to assume in "Karate Jutsu" that karate may just be a subset of JJJ/AJJ. Some influence is true, but it is not JJ.





I agree with most of this, however jujutsu as I understand it was mearly the unarmed component of the various samurai fighting schools. Was Matsumura not trained in the Jigen ryu Samurai arts?

Quote:


The fallacies abound in many karate styles, especially in the 4 so-called MAJOR styles- Shito Ryu, Wado Ryu, Shotokan and Goju Ryu. How the heck are you gonna even begin to call that diluted schoolboy stuff MAJOR?





I could be wrong but I think they are called major because of their prevalence around the globe.

Quote:


Funakoshi changed it drastically for no reason that is apparent other than he wanted it "schoolified" and "Japanised". He was a very good businessman when it came to making models, but not when it came to getting compensated.





The schoolboy karate thing... I've not encountered anything that leads me to believe karate was changed for use by school children. The Pinan Kata were created for the Okinawan school system yes. However the Pinan kata are a simple self defence course and nothing more. Shotokan Karate is not the Pinan Kata. After reading Funakoshi's books I realised that what he had done was bring to japan a complete system of kata designed to encompass the whole of karate. He states that though there are more kata in okinawa, to bring more over would simply result in replication of techniques. It follows that the changes he and Itosu made to the original 15/16 Shotokan kata were to the end of creating that system that repeats its self as little as possible.

Quote:


Most of you will be resistant to change when it comes to looking at the claims of most karate styles and their validity as true fighting and self-betterment arts. You will claim it's all the same, even if you have zero proof. Then they will say that the changes found in their karate were for the good of all and to make karate more real. If you do the real how ya' gonna get "realer"? Plastic begets plastic.





The burden of proof is on you and yours who make the criticisms. No evidence is ever offered that REAL karate has anything different let alone original intent. Misinterpreted history and the ethereal promises that there's this wonderously all encompassing TRUE art are the only justifications ever given. Empty and unconstructive criticism will always be disgarded as rubbish, not because people are affraid of the truth but because there's no evidence offered, no good intention detectable and only the words of people who seem to need to put others down to feel good to support the claims.

It should be noted that the attitude of someone making an argument affects those listening. A negative attitude reduces the credibility of the person making the argument for the reasons I gave above. If the purpose of communicating is to impart information then an inoffensive attitude will get the message across much more easily. Also in any debate facts, or opinions presented as facts require supporting evidence to give them validity.

Good luck with your training, I am glad you have found a system you like that works for you.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#316390 - 02/05/07 01:39 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shonuff, I am a little confused. Are you saying that your Shotokan contains the original intent of old style karate, no karate in existence today contains this intent, or Shotokan and okinawan karate both have some level of it equally? Just as when American service men learned karate in okinawa and even today there are some words the okinawans used for which there is no concept in American language and culture. The same was true for Japan. Due to this certain things were/are "lost in translation." Now some were able to recognize this and learn their way, yet others (the majority) were not. Like you say maybe the art that Funakoshi taught contained slight outward changes but still had what he knew to be the old style karate intact. However, most Shotokan today is far removed from what even he originally taught. Are you saying you practice what Funakoshi taught? Even Shotokan guys like Vince Morris who have a decent understanding of application of old style karate were forced to stray from the "traditional" shotokan technique execution and use a more fluid okinawan way. However, it seems like you are saying this is not necessary and Shotokan needs no adjustment in its current form. I am trying to understand a little more about what you do so I can understand why you believe it does what the okinawan styles do.

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#316391 - 02/06/07 01:53 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Unsu Offline
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Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Shonuff, I understood exactly what Funakoshi was saying. He claimed that if you changed the tachi kata, the kamae kata, the techs and the execution as well as omitted the lessons of his tode training you would end up with a changed form and the same intent? How the heck can that be? Funakoshi was trying to sell his product to the Japanese. He told them "it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck but its essence is that of an eagle". It just sounds ridiculous.

You cannot learn how to properly do anything without the right mechanics and intent. If the form is changed and the reasons behind the training are changed, then how do you get the original essence?

It's just ignorance speaking when you say that your karate is the same as Okinawan karate. How would you know this? What rank do you have in an Okinawan system? Who did you train Ryukyuan karate with? I know Shotokan. My last sensei was originally a Shotokan guy. Why did he decide that it could suffice as decent karate, yet failed when it came to living up to the Uechi Ryu, Shorinji Ryu and Shorin Ryu he learned later?

I'm not saying that Shotokan isn't good journeyman karate. It has lost the kobudo, hojo undo, terminology and original purpose. It has gone from private instruction or even small groups to large P.E. style classes. Funakoshi was trying to save karate not preserve it. His remedy proved the most palatable to the Japanese. As a result Shotokan is the largest "ryu" in the world.

Major systems to the Japanese are the ones they control, and which they adopted a long time ago- the ones with the Japanese name associated with them. Their Shito and Goju is very different from Okinawan Shito and Goju even if it was an Okinawan who originally brought the style to them. There are more folks in the world practicing Shorin Ryu than Nissei Goju. So what is this about numbers being the reason for the "Dai" designation? It's pure hogwash. It's called xenophobia and doppleganging, not popularity and relevance or even efficacy.

Look I'm not here to sugar-coat words or to check my delivery. I am here to give you the Okinawan Karate slant from MY perspective. You do you and I'll do me. If I want to know about Shotokan in Britain I'll ask you, otherwise if you see me post and are afraid it'll get you riled up then don't read it. I'm gonna keep giving it like I have been. All that fluffy BS speach is for liars, p.p. experts and politicians.

I just tell it like it is, bro. Unless you have trained in real Okinawan karate quit guessing. Take what I say with a grain of salt and leave it at that. Those quotes I gave you showed how much Funakoshi really knew about the karate he learned. Not that much. That's why to this day most Okinawan karate-ka are not too quick to point to him as a true master. That's why cats like Motobu laughed at him and disparaged him whenever they could. What you do is fine for you, but it's not karate with true intent IMHO.

It's schoolkid sport karate.

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#316392 - 02/06/07 02:05 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
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I actually agree with a lot of what Shonuff had to say, including that original intent exist no where, in any "traditional" art. And from what Ive seen from one branch to the next its all the same with the exception that some branches of karate offer more grappling than others, which is an improvement on the whole art, IMO.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316393 - 02/06/07 02:17 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Chen Zen, and what exactly have you seen? Have you seen shorin ryu, have you seen MY shorin ryu? I've seen JKD that looks like broke Wing Chun mixed with ineffective kickboxing. However, I don't apply that to the entirety of JKD. If you are going to make a statement like that you should at least explain what you have seen so we can have what some call, a discussion.

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#316394 - 02/06/07 02:39 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Ok guys cool it please and dont make me lock the thread down.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#316395 - 02/06/07 03:12 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: shoshinkan]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Its ok Jim, Meds ok, if not a little over sensitive.

First, my comment was not meant to slight your or your style, so calm yourself, and lets continue to have good conversation.

Again, Im no karateka. Ive said it before. However, for what its worth, I spent quite some time working with a man who did Goju for 24 years, and judo for 14. When I say I spent some time with him, I mean that I spent about two and a half hours or so a day doing various drills, working techniques, and sparring. We didnt do kata at all. Another guy I work with now is an okinawan style karateka. He has less experience, about 7 years or so.

When talking of original intent, that could be topic of any art. Often times "original" intent isnt original at all, as its taken from something else. Even when this isnt the case, you still have the problem of human communication. Take the quote above for examle. The things Funakoshi said meant something totally different to me than it did to you or Unsu. The man isnt here to say who interpreted it correctly.

Ill give you another example. Go to your dojo and sit in a circle. Wisper a simple message to the person next to you. When the whisper reaches you, many times it will change a little,sometimes a lot and sometimes completely. Given that many of the traditional systems werent preserved in any other fashion than within the minds of the people for thousands of years, it kind of leads one to suspect that perhaps it may have been, and most likely is, altered.

Its inevitable and unavoidable. Now, if you karateka want to argue amongst yourselves about who is more effective, go for it, but its a waste of breathe. To anyone who isnt a karateka, karate is just karate. No one branch has ever stuck out from another, IMO. In movement or effectiveness of student. Take that how you want it, but having sparred against many of you karateka, having worked closely with many of you, from different schools and systems, you all do and say the same things. The only thing you guys cant agree on is kata and whose better. Pretty petty if you ask me.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316396 - 02/06/07 03:35 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
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Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
In the end it is the individual, not the art, however, you need to start with a solid system. Most arts with similar backgrounds look similar, but if you look hard enough you may find exceptions in both systems, schools, and inviduals. Most kickboxing is very similar, but there is something special about CroCop's. Many boxers move the same, however, the Mike Tyson of the late 80's was very different. Is CroCop the an exceptional individual or is it that Cus D'amato's "style" of boxing was different from everyone else's and his style made for an extremely difficult fighter to defeat? If all karatekas are basically the same what makes one more difficult to defeat, physical attributes and natural fighting talent alone? If you met a karateka who fought differently would he not be doing karate? I've said this before and I will say it again, 98% of the karate out there is crap, and thats a fact. However, not all karate was made equal no matter how PC and we are the world everyone tries to be.

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#316397 - 02/06/07 03:56 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
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Loc: Ms
In the end it is always the individual, you are correct. Because one fighter may fight better than another doesnt mean that his karate in itself is better. He may simply have superior attributes, or simply a superior strategy.

If I found a fighter who fought differently, would he be doing karate. Its possible that he could be, though, as I stated, Ive not witnessed these changes. Granted some of the finer nuances may be different, in general terms, it would seem to me, again IMO, that karate is the same, regardless of branch. And I also agree that most karate is garbage, but thats not because of the system itself, but because of the instruction and the commercialization of karate. Its suffered nearly as much as TKD in that regard.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316398 - 02/06/07 11:23 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Unsu Offline
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Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Quote:

In the end it is always the individual, you are correct. Because one fighter may fight better than another doesnt mean that his karate in itself is better. He may simply have superior attributes, or simply a superior strategy.

If I found a fighter who fought differently, would he be doing karate. Its possible that he could be, though, as I stated, Ive not witnessed these changes. Granted some of the finer nuances may be different, in general terms, it would seem to me, again IMO, that karate is the same, regardless of branch. And I also agree that most karate is garbage, but thats not because of the system itself, but because of the instruction and the commercialization of karate. Its suffered nearly as much as TKD in that regard.




It's not always the individual that counts for everything. The person does make a style look good but a good style can make a weak person look a lot stronger. That is not 100% true, but who you learn from, the principles you learn, the foundation of your karate style- kata for karate- does make a huge difference. If you attend Appalachian Community College do you think that you'll come out of it with the same training, respect and knowledge as someone who is an Oxford graduate? Is a surgical fellowship program out of a trailer in Southern Florida on par with one at the Mayo Clinic? Nope.

You are entitled to your opinion however informed or uninformed it may be. Yes most striking MAs share similarities when it comes to free sparring. The thing is many systems of Okinawan karate think of free sparring as a very nominal way to test ones knowledge of their respective style. At best it's an inadequate adjunct used to test a limited amount of the skills one learns in a complete karate system. The only type of free sparring that I've witnessed which bares any resemblance to how true karate can be used in real life is Bogu Kumite (or free sparring) which allows throws, low kicks and at least some limited ground-fighting. Only Daidojuku, Okinawan Kempo, Koeikan, Shorinji Ryu, Matsuda Shinshi's Shorin Ryu and Matsumura Seito Kenpo use this format on a regular basis. That type of sparring is still very limited in scope when it comes to preserving the intent of old-style karate.

I find it slightly odd that you frequent the forms/apps. forum yet you are not a yudansha in any real karate system. You claim to have trained with a Goju Ryu guy who did no kata training with you, just all of the other supplementary stuff that went with his karate regimen. If you did no kata, then were you really doing karate or just mediocre kickboxing? So where is your trained eye? Not your two eyes, but your third eye- the mind. You have limited insight into this entire karate thing, so you speak from a very weak position, IMVHO.

It seems to me that you have your mind made up about something that you don't know that much about. It'd be like me talking about my opinion of Wing Chun, just because it is a sister sytem to the Okinawan styles. The words that would result from that analysis would be without any true merit, because I do not really know the first thing about Wing Chun yet I would be claiming that my opinion was of equal importance to say William Cheung or even Emin Boztepe. It wouldn't be.

I think, at least in my very honest and informed estimation in this instance, your opinion doesn't matter that much either. You are chiming in but it's obvious how limited your knowledge of real karate is.

When you have a very superficial understanding of a thing, anything similar to it seems the same. Take racial stereotypes for instance and profiling.

Each system and dojo is different. Sometimes a little and sometimes very much so. To me it's quite obvious on these forums who knows a little bit more than a little bit about karate. I can tell you and others fall into that category. Don't take that as a slight.

For example, I know more about turntablism than even the most advanced club or radio D.J. out there, let alone a spectator. To the casual observer the club DJ's chirp might sound a lot like the turntablist's flare scratch. In fact all scratching might look like it's simple and even sound rough or similar to all other cuts unless you really know the art. Heck even a club DJ wouldn't know that they were wack and that their scratching was wack, they would feel that the 7 grand they made a night dj'ing in South Beach made their title and skills just as relevant if not more relevant. They would be dead wrong. The two "D.J.s" are nowhere near the same.

So again it's all about angle and depth of knowledge. I guarantee you that the karate I learned from Ron Lindsey is unlike ANY karate you will ever find, unless you were smart enough to train in a few styles up to an advanced level, then switched over to his very pure Matsumura Orthodox Shuri Te. That would give you a basis for comparison. You would then understand the depth that was lacking before you decided to make the change.

I know what is real and what is plastic, and that comes from doing many things well in life and actually DOING instead of talking. Not everyone is of the same ilk. Sorry to burst your bubble. No amount of hardwork can equal innate aptitude coupled with skill garnered from a better source of knowledge. So regardless of what Thomas Edison lied to everyone about, perspiration means squat if you're doing squat. The same goes for not-so inspiring inspiration. I don't know you , but from what you say I definitely know you. Heard it all before.

BTW do you know "Seven Star"? Peace...


Edited by Unsu (02/06/07 11:36 AM)

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#316399 - 02/06/07 05:52 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:

Shonuff, I am a little confused. Are you saying that your Shotokan contains the original intent of old style karate, no karate in existence today contains this intent, or Shotokan and okinawan karate both have some level of it equally?




Simple honest answer, I dont know. I was mearly interpreting the quote by Funakoshi.
I hear that Matsumura seito has original intent, I am not inclined to believe this with everything I have read heard and seen of Karate, but I do not disbelieve it either, I am open to all possibilities even the idea that Shotokan is childrens play/imitation karate.
What I would like though is some evidence of the claims made. I have never been presented with any evidence to say that Matsumura Seito Karate is any different from any other style. When I first heard of it the only amazing claim about it was the Hakutsuru kata supposedly linked to white crane kung fu. After a few white crane practitioners saw the form and rubbished the links it seems original intent is the new reason to worship the style and why it is better than everyone elses karate.

I do not know what okinawan karate does or does not do. I have no rank in any okinawan style so I do not claim knowledge of Shorin ryu or any other Okinawan system. Other people who do not train Shotokan make claims about what Shotokan does or does not do and I inform them of my experiences and knowledge of the style.

I do not practice Karate as Funakoshi did, to my knowledge no-one alive does. I practice Shotokan Karate with Shotokan technique and use applications derived from shotokan kata to develop the strategies and methods by which to use the art in addition to those advocated by Joe Shotokan. The technique is modified according to the situation and desired outcome, but is generally pretty traditional, though probably slightly more towards Orthodox Shotokan. Understanding why an Enoeda ultra-long front stance is the same as a front stance with only a foot length distance between the feet, and all other such form transcending concepts, is crucial to understanding Shotokan but most important and the key to getting to that level of understanding is varied and effective practice that develops trains and tests skills and allows one to learn through doing. If I practice an application and find that to make the technique work in combat I need to alter how it is done slightly I will. If a technical method has no use I will keep it in reserve until I find a use. I have not yet had to discard anything only expand my understanding.

My main reason for being on this forum is to fulfill my curiosity about other karate styles and learn about them through comparrison and discussion. I have no desire to try and immitate what anyone else is doing, just fulfil intelectual curiosity and find new ways to look at the art I have chosen to study. This is the reason for the other post about karate fighting styles, I'd like to see what is so different about the other styles out there because when I have seen them, the differences are nearly always purely superficial.

Unfortunately in the course of these debates some posters take umbridge at the idea that what they are doing is not unique and suddenly you cant possibly be doing what your doing, not with the style you practice...

No one can ever win because we are on different continents tapping away at a computer. A situation which makes it possible to claim anything. But if a claim is to be taken seriously show some evidence. I have happily described any shotokan claims that I have made and been questioned about but as there is often reluctance to go into detail from others involved I limit myself. I have no camera and am not inclined to go to such trouble if it wont be reciprocated. It is a cop out to simply say that others do not understand or don't know anything rather than simply explain your point. Anyone can make claims, show me something different, a reason to listen.

Unsu - you had some good ideas on the use of the x-block, and I can understand alot of your reasoning about the drift of Karate, but after a point you use guesses and unfounded conclusions about history and other styles to support your claims. I'm quite happy for you to do you and hear the okinawan karate slant, but you don't talk about what okinawan karate does, you talk in generalities about what everyone else does not do.

Just out of curiosity...
Assuming we agree that everything that you say is wrong with non matusumura seito is actually wrong, but yet these styles still work and do everything that is asked of them, what would you say and why would you say it?
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#316400 - 02/06/07 06:02 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
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Loc: UK
Shonuff,

you are always welcome to come down my dojo, or indeed my Sensei's dojo in Sevenoaks.

We may not have the ultimate, best, karate but what we do is certainly very different from mainstream shotokan.

Feel free to communicate or visit my blog for a little more detail, you would be made most welcome, we have a good few guests visit/train.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#316401 - 02/06/07 06:48 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
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Loc: London, UK
Thanks Jim, I might have to take you up on that offer sometime soon!
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#316402 - 02/06/07 08:45 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
hey,

are there any web resources out there concerning your style or dojo spefically? i searched and never came up with much, maybe you could point out a vid or something of yourself or someone related to your style to give me a better visual understanding of some of the differences.

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#316403 - 02/06/07 10:40 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
You are very elequently arrogant. It tickles me, that you would go through the trouble of being somewhat polite while talking down your nose to someone. Regardless of all that, though you may be more informed than me in karate do, Combat is not simply Karate. To think that the style you chose is the one true way, well thats just silly. Id have to say, if karate was the be all end all of MA, there would be alot of MMA dojos out there out of business, since karateka, or ex karateka, make up a large portion of our students. Now thats not to say that I believe MMA to be the end all be all either, as I would never be so Naive as to say such a thing.

And as you said, sparring is not fighting, well, neither is kata. My Goju instructor new that, which is why he chose not to teach them. Also I visit this forum, and the Karate forum frequently, though Im no karateka. Why? Well, I respect all arts. Because while its true that its not always the student, its primarily the student who makes an art what it is. You can have the greatest knowledge but if you dont use it correctly, where does the burden of resposibility lay? Not within the information itself, but upon the shoulders of the man who could not use the information he had. The truth is, if trained properly, any art can be used to effectively beat any other art. Theres nothing wrong with karate that doesnt resemble your own or doesnt believe the philosphies that you do, the art in itself is complete, its just not your art.

My position is not weakened in any way due to my non participation of karate. And your no William Cheung, either so dont compare yourself as if you were. Though Ive never met him, if his students reflect him at all, he must be a much more humble and respectful MA than you have displayed to be. Dont feel bad though, he's likely a better man than I as well.

You talk of all these diferences but they dont exist. As many times as you've been asked for them, someone who loves to talk as much as you would have shown some example of his obvious superiority by now. You talk a good game. It be nice to see if you could actually walk it, but it must be hard to walk a road that doesnt exist.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316404 - 02/07/07 08:28 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Shonuff,

Your approach to Shotokan sounds very similar to ours. I train in Kissaki headed by Vince Morris using Shotokan katas as a basis for exploration/application. Which group are you with?

B.

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#316405 - 02/07/07 10:48 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Kissaki Kai huh. I know a little about your group. I have been to a few VM seminars in Phoenix, AZ and researched his methods. Actually Vince took the basic structure of Shotokan karate and adopted many principles found in Okinawan karate, such as dropping the principle of kime and striking with "heavy hands" instead. If you look at his technique execution he moves and strikes more like I have found to be the norm for most "good" shorin ryu schools. He seems to have abandoned the straight line in and out I have mostly seen from shotokan guys and uses tai sabaki to attack at a 45 degree angle. In addition his mawashi uke is the way in which most "blocks" which are used for that purpose are executed in shorin ryu. However, what I have seen from Shotokan my be the exception and not the norm. If all Shotokan is like that of Vince Morris, then I take back all of the negative comments I have ever said about it.

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#316406 - 02/07/07 12:59 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
first, i've seen some of vince morris's stuff, and i really like it too. he's got some great ideas and training methods

the defination of kime i was brought up on is "mentally and physically complete and the time of contact" seems to me that kime is turing into a slang term used as a down graded version of actual hitting. ie, scapegoat.

of coarse i will defend and try to explain why my shotokan is the way it is, but the very base of this discssion is that one martial art is fake and crap and only good for recreation. and that is just base ingorance. the concepts tought in any karate dojo are esentially the same, as chen said. and im sure there are members of your orginization unsu, and med that you know shouldn't be taken as exemplory of the whole.

the concepts your all bringing up, ie. heavy hands vr kime, liniear movement vr tai sabaki. they are the same thing, some of you say that using kime in a real fight isn't going to work as good as heavy hands, but they are the same thing, your understanding of kime needs to be deepened if you thnk other wise.

concerning liniear movement vr tai sabaki, lineiar movement is moement, and has its time and place. the reason you see it adopted so often in sport fighting is besause its the fastest way the competetors can deliver their thchniques, theres nothing wrong with it, nothing. any martial system will preach the benifet of all kinds of movement, circular and lineiar, they just have a time and place. shotokan guys use it more often then circular movement cause its what their familiar with and comfortable with through their training, some will argue that in certin instances its faster and more stable too. and in certin instances they will be right. and in others you will be, no biggie.

every style focuses on something which means they neglect something else, it seems to me that your saying that shotokan is far to this or that. well thats fine with me, i have a prefered way to deal with things, so do you bud, thats pratically my defination of style. just a prearanged training and theory methodology used to prepare the student use his body in some way. not the one way, a way.

personally i don't care if you like what i do, i've said it before that what really gets me is that after someone has made up their mind thats it. they sometimes refuse to be told different, or even accpet that something ealse is not what they expect it to be, i can't provide yo with proof that what i do is legit, but neither can you. so please, im not asking anyone to convert, just break out of the ruts, and at least accept that someone else might have a point.

example: through training i was tought the concept of kime, start working with live partners, and things change, all of a sudden im not fast enough or strong enough. so i call kime crap, and only usefull for line work. work on the heavy bag, and decide to give it another chance, and my puching changes, now the bag is poping away from my hand, and im not leaving it out there for 3 seonds, im playing with some boxing style pnching, and after i "fix" my defination of what kime is i find there to be more power and greated fluidity to my attacks. during class im able to knock guys 200 lbs onto their back foot, then hit them 3 more times while their still smiling in disbeleief.

what is preached to you in class is karate for the masses, yes, thats why you have to make it your own. med and unsu, you have found a school and instructor that fits your niche, thats great, but i found mine too, and its not yours. and your instructors are different then their instrctors. in that sense, nothing stays the same, but the core does. the principals of effective fighting simply are, its up to use to learn them, by what ever measn neseciary. in this class or that, in the shed with the heavy bag, in the car, where ever.

and shotokan is another way to get to the top of that moutian, what makes you think your on the right moutian unsu? the same things that make me feel like i am too bud, your happy and confidant with your instruction because it makes good sense to you, me too!! yaaay!!! every one is still good and happy

i don't happen to like combat hapkido, but the guys working it back home are damn good and capable. the things they explained to me never made sense, but they do to them, and they understand deeply.

so i make it my mission to understand how the things ive been tought can be applied in many ways. a wise man can learn more from a foolish ansnwer than a foolish man can learn from a wise answer. not saying im wise, or foolish, but i have my moments of both, so i try to realiaze when im being what, change my frame of mind as is required and learn from every thing i can. even the stupid things i type and read.

all im saying is, give peace a chance

yours in life
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#316407 - 02/07/07 01:09 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
student_of_life Offline
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this came to me as i was typing my last msg.

to become good at playing the guitar you need to learn all the various picking thchniqes, and be able to apply them and flow through them like water. same goes for piano. what your saying is that shotokan guys arn't even playing a guitar, their learning the banjo. well, in truth, were all learning to play something far more universal - music.

good music if good music, even if you don't like the instruments being played.

example, i hate country, but its my grandfathers gospel.

yours in life
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#316408 - 02/07/07 01:22 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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I didn't say that straight line in and out is good or bad or that kime is good or bad. Its just different from what I do in shorin ryu, and shorin ryu works well for me just as your shotokan works well for you. In fact the only difference is one is more basic and the other is more advanced.I won't tell you which is which, however. Much of what shotokan teaches (more or less) is what is taught in basic shorin ryu, however, we then add to it and move on. You even said you had to change your definition of kime to make it work. Well, good shorin ryu works straight out of the box. I believe you are making your shotokan workable just like VM. And many of the principles that make karate work are the okinawan ones. The reason you can use them to make shotokan work is it came from shorin ryu. When you take the sport strategies out of it your shotokan will look very different. Moderation is the key. If you say that Shotokan long stances can be adjusted to a more moderate one to fit the situation I will agree, and I will also point out that you are again doing what VM did and re-adopting the okinawan principles that were once in your art, and may still be there, if they are hidden behind Yoshitaka's adjustments to his father's teachings.

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#316409 - 02/07/07 02:00 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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With the exception of ground work and toe kicking there is not a single practical skill or technique that I have heard attributed to Shorin ryu or any other style of karate that I have not actively been taught within Shotokan as relatively basic Shotokan without the deeper knowledge gained through kata study. If your going to discuss kime be specific and tell us whose idea of kime you are talking about. Nakayama Kime is only one interpretation of the concept even within Shotokan, it is also perfectly workable in combat.

There is alot of sport Shotokan but Shotokan is not a sport style. The normal Shotokan front stance is a practical stance in its self it needs no adjusting. Some Karateka use even longer more showy stances and they are exceptions not rules.

Vince Morris has simply developed his Karate based on kata study. This is the natural progression of any karateka, basic ideas first advanced study and refinement later. The changes he has made are as I understand it natural development of Shotokan not an attempt at imitating Shorin ryu.

Either some of the okinawan principles never actually left or the Japanese principles work fine, either way the art works. I don't understand why you feel the need to tell us what Shotokan teaches when it is obvious you have no clue beyond a couple of stereotypes?

Why not tell us (Shotokan practitioners) about your art instead of telling us about our own?
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#316410 - 02/07/07 02:35 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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i can't tell if your agreeing with me or just still shoveling the same stuff?

as for them being okinawian principals.......your giving them to much credit, they learned from the chinease, and so on a so on. they adpoted, then we adopted, and so on and so on.

if they had the best fighting principals, then why were controled by the japanease?, now before that gets me banded and burned alive, its not nationalism at all. im just trying to raise the point that they had good intentions yes, but anyone who puts enough time and devotion in is going to come up with the "principals"

the same argument cliche's are just going to be recycled. good shorin ryu works out of the box? man every thing your saying is overtly one sided, good self defence is going to work out of the box. why won't shotokan if its tought and interperted correctly?? i know you think im being to pc, and that your putting out "the way it is" but the implications of what your saying are childish. your hovering around this "truth" and coming of with this macho, john wayne type realism.

just keep a level head, dig in your toes and shoot down what ever pokes its head up. by the end of the day, you'll be the only one around to argue with, thus your right by default.

*Much of what shotokan teaches (more or less) is what is taught in basic shorin ryu, however, we then add to it and move on.*

thats martial arts training, what your tought is only a base. what ever style. are you saying that randori is a kids versoin of shiai?

*You even said you had to change your definition of kime to make it work*

because my origonal definition of kime was wrong, misinterperted from the get go. and through more training, it got fixed, and after i explained it to my instructor, she agreed and said it all takes time, and hundereds of repetions.

*The reason you can use them to make shotokan work is it came from shorin ryu*

and the reason you can make shorin ryu work is cause its all (ALL) based on sound physics as it applies to the human body. one more time, all.

* When you take the sport strategies out of it your shotokan will look very different.*

i both painfully disagree and agree with this. the core will always remain the same, for example if yourself started to spar competetivly, your "style" will change too. you will alter your technique and will change to fit the situation, sparing is just one situation. as it is, we pratice far, far more then the sport. so this is not a dascent point.

* If you say that Shotokan long stances can be adjusted to a more moderate one to fit the situation I will agree, and I will also point out that you are again doing what VM did and re-adopting the okinawan principles that were once in your art, and may still be there, if they are hidden behind Yoshitaka's adjustments to his father's teachings. *

hidden? im getting dizzy from all these circles. re adopting? shotokan has been researched by all sorts, and its technique changed still from what gigo toght, not re adopting, but re-enventing. with nothing more in mind then make it work, shotokan may be the degenerate son of "real" karate, but now we are our karate.

no dscussion here, just "silly rabbit, tricks are for kids"

further from the beging? hell yes, further from the truth, not a chance.

im not totally against ya, i agree that much of what is called shotokan should just be called competetive point sparing, and a kind of gymnastic kata. some stances are too low, some attacks sacrafice speed for every thing else. moderation is the key, of coarse, this is something you learn once you've been around. i strive for moderation, but that dosen't mean that i'm going to disgard the rest as crap, i've learned so much from shotokan so far, and i want more.


yours in life
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#316411 - 02/07/07 04:15 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Shonuff, actually VM got most of his interpretation from Patrick McCarthy, who utilizes the okinawan teaches to develop his own bunkai. And VM explains on some of his video tapes that he uses the original okinawan methods rather than the traditional shotokan versions. So no, he did not develop his bunkai only on his own interpretation of Shotokan kata. And it seems you are repeating what I said before. If Shotokan contains these principles there are no problem, Shotokan will be a workable art. If I believe this, then what is the problem, it seems as if we agree.

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#316412 - 02/07/07 07:08 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
medulanet Offline
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Student, I have no problem admitting that a lot of what is contained in okinawan came from China, however, it came from the Samurai arts in Japan, Thai Boxing, Indigenous Okinawan fighting and wrestling methods, and some say from the Spaniards and more. The okinawans then took these arts and combined them as they tailored the techniques to their own culture, physiques, etc. Then it went to Japan and karate was changed yet again to fit the budo culture there and formalized like kendo and judo. It was altered to fit the tastes of the Japanese. Then it went all around the world and each culture added to it again for better or for worse. I'm glad you like Shotokan and I hope you can make it work. I hope you never are taught to chamber unless your elbow is cracking a skull, breaking ribs, or the chambering hand is pulling, twisting, or trapping something. I hope you use long stances for grappling, narrow stances when not physically touching your opponent, and moderate stances for the down and dirty standing 6 inches from your opponent caving in as many cavities as humanely possible. I hope your guard hand is always up unless you put your opponent down. I hope your turns throw, your stacked hands lock, and your backfists always find their target, even if they happen to be chudan ukes. I hope your gedan ukes never sweep, only strike hard and fast, after they have deflected what ever comes your way. Always drawn in and explode out. Never tighten, only allow your natural movement to provide tension. Your hara will always lead the way, so step quickly, and carry a big atemi waza. Never kick higher than you can stomach, and always as a set up for giving your opponent more than he can take. If you can grab the head or neck of your foe, but only because okinawan boxing tends to get a little dirty. These are only a few of my wishes and I hope they are yours as well.

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#316413 - 02/07/07 07:30 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
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Sounds pretty good though I didnt understand the hara or akemi waza parts.
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#316414 - 02/07/07 08:36 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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medulanet,

im sorry for coming off as such an ass my man. i just got back from teaching class at my college and i have to say your post seems almost frigently like what i just finished saying.

the point i was trying to make was what you just said really, and like chen said, karate is similar, our little differences are just that, little.

the throwing, the stances, the pulling hand, the kicking, all of it is how i was tought and how i teach. i just get overly defensive when i hear people, what seems like putting down what i put so much time into.

infact, i will now consider your last post to be the "karate creed", kinda like a prayer between karate ka.

again, im sorry bud.

yours in life
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#316415 - 02/07/07 08:43 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
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Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
chen,

hara or tanden means center, roughly 2 or 3 inches below the belly button. your center starts all movement, its your power, and your ballance and your speed.

atemi waza means striking techniques, kind of a umbrella term for striking, from vital point to hay maker. but different people use different translations, i think thoes are generally accepted.

yours in life
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#316416 - 02/07/07 09:29 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
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I appreciate that, thanks.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316417 - 02/08/07 01:51 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Unsu Offline
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Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
Chen,
I understand what you're saying. As far as putting MMA schools out of buisness, that will never happened. Even before the advent of NHB fighting on a commercial scale here- stateside- karate was not the only successful style. In fact a form of very limited karate specifically WTF or other Olympic oriented TKD was probably the most succesful. Does this mean that they were the most potent schools imparting the most sound MAs advice? No. MMAs is here for some time at the least and karate which is more palatable to the masses will be too.

Another thing that folks forget to remember is that a good traditional style whather its Wu-style Tai Chi Chuan, Hung-Gar Chuan Fa, Inosanto JKD, Shobayahsi Shorin Ryu, Jundokan Goju, Uechi Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Old Style Tiger Brigade TKD, Daito Ryu JJ, Seidokaikan, Yoseikan, Shotokan-- whatever solid system it is--- could/should always be coined a "MMA".

"MMAs" is the new wave like Ninjutsu in the 1980s, Karate and Kung Fu in the 1960s-70s, and Judo and JJJ before them. MMAs is the understanding of the efficacy of basic all-range fighting made especially but not exclusive to a competitive format. In my estimation it may be pseudo-martial but it entails very little art. It is Budo of Nominals. It is very shortsighted. It is the current fad. The big question is will it go the way of Ninpo?

Karate will always be around. Smart cats like Funakoshi insured that. Now that we have drifted completely OT I can add that very good old-style karate, which does have a place in it all, which is not stagnant, which emphasizes adaptability for survival not for commercialism SHOULD always be around. The atmosphere in MAs today will always be very similar. In the future the systems with true staying power, that rely less on glory, money and wanton violence will survive and continue to adapt at a moderate pace. Systems that the average Joe and Josephina can train in with their kids without worry of multiple concussions, hip replacements, ACL repairs, spinal fusions and the long-term crippling effects of high impact training. IMO styles like Muay Thai and other hard contact sports/MAs serve the practitoner very little but carry on the mission for those who have a vested interest (monetarily) in it all. Kicking my own butt long-term just to know I can give it and get it means squat. I want beyond average arse-kicking skills without the arthritis, joint probs and Parkinsonian Syndrome. Foresight is rarely 20/20.

Still 'nuff respect for you all and what it is you do. Sorry to sound so harsh. One Love and No Worries...


Edited by Unsu (02/08/07 01:55 AM)

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#316418 - 02/08/07 03:02 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
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Unsu,

You have a lot of knowledge on your style. I respect that. It seems like a good approach. Im not a fan of kata myself but I understand why people choose to do them. After reading the thread on Honto Kata, Id like to explore that a little further anyways, maybe a more streamlined kata would appeal to me more.

I agree that MMA isnt going anywhere, not after UFC and such, and neither is karate. Id hate to see either of them gone or cheapened by commercialization, but its a very real possibility that happens to many arts. Like you said, that doesnt mean the material is superior, unfortunately.

The thing you said about Traditional systems being coined MMA, what did you mean?

I also think your view of MMA may be a little askew. Sure its the new wave to people some people but MMA concepts have been around for a long time. Also you described it as "basic all range fighting geared mostly to competition." Thats true yet not. Let me explain. MMA utilizes boxing for example. Boxing, as far as striking arts are concerned, is rather basic since it contains few strikes. Less than a dozen, yet its called the sweet science. Because its complexity is not in the techniques themselves, but in the delivery system of those techniques. Then you have Muay Thai. A very simple and direct art, and highly aggressive. However, the training ties in perfectly with the boxing, then later, as you work the clinch in Thai Boxing, you begin to work the clinch for BJJ purposes. Eventually being able to flow uninterrupted between the three at any given moment. A quality MMA school is going to emphasize the transitional movement and footwork as much as they work actual technique. But you are right, there is little art, compared to Kung Fu or Karate. The art is in the application itself.

As for hard contact MA, we do do it rough, but many people get the misconception that we beat each other up constantly like fight club and that isnt the case. Do we go harder than most? Maybe. But it is combat, after all. People will get hit, and sometimes hurt. I dont look at a jammed finger or busted lip as anything significant, yet many times in Traditional MA, if theres a bloody nose theres "Been an accident". Sure these things arent very fun but thats the price you gotta pay sometime to see if what your doing is really going to work like you think or hope that it will. At least IMO.

Nice talking with you..... CZ
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"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316419 - 02/08/07 04:27 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Unsu Offline
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Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
The MMAs=Good TMAS thing is self-explanatory. Having boxed for many years, as did my sensei and Mike Stone and Bill Hayes and even Trias, I know the essence of boxing. In fact I might be a better boxer than karate-ka. Having kickboxed starting in the 1980s and continuing until recently, I can say that the the Yaw-Yan and Thai Boxing I cross-trained in in the Philippines gives me a decent understanding of what is good percussive fighting and what isn't. The first MA I trained in was Kodokan Judo. I started when I was 7 and continued until they closed down the base my pops was stationed at. My understanding of throwing and wrestling is very sound. That is my foundation MA, again maybe better than my karate. I dunno.

I am actually friends with Ryron Gracie. One of his best friends went to H.S. with me in the Philippines. As a consequence my exposure to GJJ has been significant since 1993. I hosted a Caique JJ seminar at UTSA in 2001, and have been told that I'm a natural at groundfighting. I dunno. It's hard to evaluate oneself.

So the point I'm trying to make is that if anyone has known and trained in MMAs it's someone like me or many of the real fighters/masters of Okinawan karate. Before all of the groundfighting and MMAs I actually fought on the ground and mixed my MAs and used it in real fights. That's just the truth.

That's why I'm saying a good style of old school karate will teach you all of these concepts. On Okinawan it is called the study of "ti-chi-ki" or how the hand/arm, foot/leg and body move. Even more salient than Honto Kata is this training concept. I won't go into details. Suffice it to say that the percussive element of karate, the grappling aspect (tuidi/tuite) and the PP aspect which includes a lot of chin na and Chinese dian xue (kyusho) as well as kobudo/kobujutsu, the ethical side of karate and the intellectual side along with form training make real karate a MMA. If you have any of these elements missing you might go searching and having very little knowledge of karate as it should be you might start using terms like "bunkai" (analysis) without realizing you mean "ti-chi-ki" which is an Okinawan thing not a Japanese one.

I gotta go. Hope all this makes my point a little clearer. I don't want to have to type my lineage and experience everytime you cats forget. No need to think I don't know it in depth when it comes to MAs training and styles period, because I really do. Sorry if it ruffels some feathers. Pax...


Edited by Unsu (02/08/07 04:30 AM)

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#316420 - 02/08/07 07:44 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
student_of_life Offline
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forgive me fo using the japanses terms as its all i know, but your sayin that this "real" karate your always talkin about is training at all ranges? the over used stand up fighting, vital strikes, cliching, take downs, grapeling, thorws and in general just being ever to fight every where?

i know the level of detail that one goes into will maybe never satisfy you, but thats "generally" it isn't it? karate is fighting with every thing you've got, self defence with no limits.

my dojo makes a regular pratice of ground and clinch fighting, while we do spend most of our time on the clasical stand up aspect of striking (cause thats our prefered range, nothing againts any other) we train as much as we can.

i feel that, that is how karate should be tought. im not saying that every karate ka should go train jj, boxing, and judo, but it sure as hell would help! what i would like to see is karate ka exploring their own art and using it at all ranges. like i said with my kime, i orioginally misunderstood, so i had to re approach it and mold my own head to what kime is, not change kime. i would love to see karate dojo's becoming what i feel they should be, a place to learn about fighting, in a way karate is the traditional MMA or krav maga. alot of people have changed it for their own reasons, but when i teach i aim to show my students how to fight. and i use the same kata to show multiple ranges of fighting.

hopefully if im close to what your saying we were never that far off, besides a few years and a few thousand miles.

yours in life
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#316421 - 02/08/07 08:23 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Medulanet,

You are basically correct-no kime, short distancing, heavy hands, distraction, mawashi uke, sanchin dachi and vertical fist punch and grappling but based around Shotokan kata and Aragaki Seisan plus others versions/forerunners of Shotokan kata for comparison (Kusanku, Naihanchi, Chinto, Wanshu etc). There are other Shotokan groups that train in this way to some extent but not as comprehensively as under Vince as far as I have seen. How did you find the courses? Not one to enthuse normally but I love 'em, even when getting used as a punch bag by Mr Morris.

B.

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#316422 - 02/08/07 01:49 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
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Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
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Unsu,

Now I have a better understanding of your karate. It sounds very similar to the things we do, just with more traditional undertones and kata training. Sounds good.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316423 - 02/08/07 04:03 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
amazing what famous name-dropping can do eh? suddenly you 'understand' him. lol

teasing you Chen.

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#316424 - 02/08/07 04:27 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
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Loc: Ms
lol I hear ya. Actually Gracie was the only name I recognized. He is going to fight Shamrock in two days here in Memphis.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316425 - 03/14/07 07:09 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I think that what I've seen, read and heard has made up my mind. I have always known who he was, but I wondered if any of that mattered to you learned martialists? As for my mind being up my arse I don't think so. I think the problem with many of these opinions is that they are uninformed. People are basing things on what they have experienced, which is basically a variation on the same weak theme. So what is your take on the low x-block seen in derivative kid kata, but missing from the original shuri te or goju adult kata? I've done schoolboy (-do) karate and karate with the original intent, and unless you know the older forms or the forms with the proper tachi kata, kamae kata, sound biomechanics and so on how can you even begin to make an educated guess much less speak on what was intended through kids forms? Do you understand my stance and stubborness? Now get your head out of Iain's jock. He is another hope boy forcing square pegs into round holes. His demeanor means squat if he is just guessing. "Niceness" doesn't equate to knowledge. Which is very evident on these forums. He is making money and garnering praise based on a gimmick and ignorance, imo.





Hi Guys.
Hi Unsa.

From what I have observed of Ian Abernathy;s teachings and the amount of street fights I have seen I think the techniques he has derived from kata would seem practical. After all wasn’t karate created for self defence? Given the amount of karate ka trained using the basic pinans then why shouldn’t he have come up with a practical use for them?

How does a person test any technique from any form of fighting?
Hope boy? I don’t think so. Jeff Thompson with whom Ian is associated with worked most of life in the world of regular daily violence, Perhaps if you researched the background somewhat of people before commenting?.



Edited by jude33 (03/14/07 07:13 AM)

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#316426 - 03/19/07 11:24 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I was just wondering what people think about the traditional - blocking a kick - application of this technique?

Do people think it works, it doesn't work? Is it practical? Do you prefer other applications, etc.





Other application. In kata it would more than likely infer another of the never ending escapes from a wrist hold.

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#316427 - 03/19/07 01:50 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jude,

You are absolutely right about Iain Abernethy and by reputation certainly about Geoff Thompson but you will never convince Unsu that anyone with a Shotokan background has anything worthwhiel to say on kata (or anything in fact.)

B.

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#316428 - 03/19/07 04:05 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
PugsRule Offline
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Registered: 03/19/07
Posts: 2
Loc: Kentucky
I have always liked a X block for defense of a kick. A kick is powerful enough to blast it way through a standard block. The X block keeps the kick from coming through your defense into your face. It use to be the standard for defense of the overhand knife attack.
I feel it is still a good block for smaller people or females who's standard blocks could be overpowered by a much larger opponent.

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#316429 - 03/20/07 05:06 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude,

You are absolutely right about Iain Abernethy and by reputation certainly about Geoff Thompson but you will never convince Unsu that anyone with a Shotokan background has anything worthwhiel to say on kata (or anything in fact.)

B.




Barad

That might be because shotokan seems to have changed the kate's for what ever reason. I dont think he is shotokan bashing in the main. I think(speaking for my studies that is) my answer is to look a the workable bunkia fom a re engineered point of view and then look at the original kata how it was before change(if that is possable) and see what the original bunkia should be(again if that is possable). To be honest my study of this topic gives me head aches. The bunkia I see some times is orintated as to what a certain karate style is centered on. Japanese infleunced karate bunkia(other than what i have seem from ian aberneathy and I am going on a another karate ka's bunkia seminar so I cant comment yet in to much detail about any seminars ) seems realy clean and not much dirty stuff

To be honest if anybody has studied ian abernaethys bunkia to a greater degree wouldnt that be a topic of discussion?

Barad if you have been on vince morris seminars would you like to discuss them?


Edited by jude33 (03/20/07 05:11 AM)

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#316430 - 03/20/07 08:09 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
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Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Vince's seminars are outstanding. Aside from what appear to me very practical interpretations, they are communicated well. He is a thoroughly nice, down to earth bloke as well as being expert at what he does. There is none of the militaristic formality or ritual that the Japanese expect.

B.

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#316431 - 03/20/07 08:13 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
Pierce Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 13
I am new to this forum and do not particularly want to read through 13 pages of what I assume to be going around in circles. (as forums usually do)

I believe the downward X-block along with some others are blocks that are referred to as Rakka. Rakka meaning the principle of hitting the base of a tree so hard that the blossoms fall off. These blocks are intended to block so hard that they shatter the opponents confidence (either of doing that move again, or through out the rest of the fight).

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#316432 - 03/21/07 02:57 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Pierce]
Shonuff Offline
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Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Hello Pierce,

Where does this "rakka" concept originate from?
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#316433 - 03/22/07 12:22 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Pierce Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 13
It is one of Shito-Ryu's five principles of defense, as seen here.
As for where it originates, I do not know.

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#316434 - 03/23/07 04:56 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Pierce]
Shonuff Offline
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Loc: London, UK
Very informative, thank you!
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#316435 - 03/23/07 08:00 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Pierce]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
'attacking the attack' may very well have it's roots in Kendo. "Gekiken" ('sword hitting') comes from Kenjutsu, the precursor to modern Kendo.

There are alot of concepts, particularly in Japanese Karate which parallel sword fighting notions and seem to appear in Karate at the time it appears in Japan:
"ikken hisatsu"
"tai sabaki"
"ma ai"
"kiai"
Zen concepts, training the mind, "Zanshin", etc
several Etiquette & Customs parallels.

"Imagine one’s legs and arms as swords."

for example.

Practical fighting-wise, I don't think the arms and legs can be viewed as swords...because they aren't. The concept detracts away from grappling and clinch, which are a reality of fighting. I think these concepts are the defining difference of Japanese Karate.

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#316436 - 03/23/07 08:39 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Ed_Morris]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
very true, in fact my sensei Nishiyama's style of shotokan is something i wold almost consider kendo with less ken and more kara. the principals i've been tought in class and in seminars i hear repeated on kendo video's i watch and the kendo books i've read.

i understand how many people find flaws in the japanese logic when it comes to budo. arms as swords? they are far more usefull then that, but i prefer to interpret that one as that by viewing youra arms and legs as swords, you would feel more confidant in your ability to hurt your opponent. for example it might give someone the mental courage to press an attack when he might be feeling scared of either the size or skill of his opponent. i think of it like this, "my arms are swords? bring it on!!! i'm dangerous!!!" not to sound like overconfidant, but more confidant then i would ever have been if i never praticed martial arts.

i wouldn't say that the concept distracts from any one thing really, so long as its understood and kept in what ever context is desiredable. obvisouly it is not ment to distract the student, but to teach him something, what that is? is up to you.

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#316437 - 03/23/07 10:12 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Pierce]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Hi Pierce,

If you had read the 13 pages, you would have found that the use of x block from a crouched stance against a front kick had already been suggested. Personally, although I know that application hurts from experience, it looks to have been extracted out of context from the kata, where it probably represents the end of a throw (see Gankaku/Chinto and Heian Godan and Jion)and given a completely new meaning.

I have never seen anyone actually apply the x block in free sparring in that way, I suspect partly because it is a good way to get a smack in the mouth as an attacking fist follows an attacking leg.

B.

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#316438 - 03/23/07 10:12 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
Pierce Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 13
The way I have overcome the fist is I use the X-block as a chamber for an upper block that follows directly after. You do not have time to see the move coming, just assume that it will (as it usually does) and go into the block with your blocking hand chambering from the bottom of the X-block.Then quickly follow up with another move.

Ps. everyone knows that an X-block can be used to block a front kick.

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#316439 - 03/24/07 09:11 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Pierce]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

The way I have overcome the fist is I use the X-block as a chamber for an upper block that follows directly after. You do not have time to see the move coming, just assume that it will (as it usually does) and go into the block with your blocking hand chambering from the bottom of the X-block.Then quickly follow up with another move.

Ps. everyone knows that an X-block can be used to block a front kick.




I think the x “block” as such in Jion indicates a cross armed throw .The entry in to the throw is somewhere else in the kata. Thus the idea of making techniques hidden in the kata

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#316440 - 03/25/07 05:04 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Pierce]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
"Everyone knows that an X block can be used to block a front kick"? Hmm, I am guessing you are quite young as I cannot really imagine an adult using the "everybody knows" line to support their contention without any other comment. And there was I thinking that interpretation of karate movements was a complicated matter with many possible, plausible outcomes...

My experience is that x block has only ever worked in single attack sparring where the front kick is called first and no punch follows the kick. This kind of prepared sparring is popular in Shotokan clubs as a basic training aid and from memory in some Shito clubs (I trained for a while in the mid/late '80s in a Tani Ha Shito Ryu club in Manchester.)

In 25 years of free sparring I have never seen anyone use it against me or anyone else. Putting you head at your attacker's waist level even for the happy if remote possibility of damaging his shin is probably not a sensible tactic if your life is on the line.

I tend to go with the Ed's suggestion that breaking the trunk or whatever it is called using crouching x block, is an imported sword principle. Cutting someone's leg off with a sword ends the fight, hitting the shin with the fist does not. Meanwhile you are off balance and getting hit in the face.

Since the bunkai theory I observed in a Shito club (granted only one but with a Sandan instructor of British team fame) was as poor as your then average Shotokan club, I am suspecting that Shito Ryu may have no more idea of kata interpretation than mainstream Shotokan.

There are several possible meanings to x block (certainly not just the knee in the attacker's ribs/neck whilst choking someone as an ending to throws I mentioned) depending on what precedes it in the kata-why not read the previous pages you ignored and you might see that many possibilities have already been discussed, including the front kick one you are introducing as if a novelty.

B.


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#316441 - 03/25/07 01:24 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
Pierce Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 13
There is no need for name-calling. If you do not like reading about possible applications for the X-block then I suggest you do not goto this topic. I did not state that that was the only application, just the most basic.

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#316442 - 03/25/07 04:12 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Barad,

when I asked about the low x-block I simply meant applying it at a regular gedan level as in H. Godan. I don't think the focus of discussion was on the kneeling x-block.

Also, I wrote earlier in this thread a long explanation of why blocking a kick is a perfectly plausible use of the low x-block. As I know yourself and many others feel this is not the case I wonder if you could point out where I was going wrong?
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#316443 - 03/26/07 04:52 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Pierce]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Pierce,

To be fair I think saying "it is for attacking the leg andeverybody knows that (implication if you disagree you are an ignorant idiot)" when what you assert is NOT necessarily accepted by everyone is what started to drag things down.

b.

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#316444 - 03/26/07 04:53 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
I was referring to the kneeling x block that Pierce shows in his Rakka link.

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#316445 - 03/26/07 05:52 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
I must have looked at a different link to you. The one I saw was http://www.shitoryu.org/skills/defense/defense.htm

There's no kneeling x-block in this Rakka explanation.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#316446 - 03/26/07 08:21 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
You are right-my mind must be playing tricks on me as I could have sworn I had seen a kneeling x block. I am not sure it makes that much difference to the comments on usage though but thanks for pointing it out to me.

B.

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#316447 - 05/17/07 05:09 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
danny81 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 350
personally i dont think anymove is utterly useless, but i probably would never use it.

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