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#316328 - 01/22/07 09:09 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
a think a short history flas back might be of use here chen, so grit your teeth and bear with me!lol.

in the day, the stances wern't so pronounced, as i understand it, it was gitchin funakoshi's son yoshitaka who, when he took over teaching for his father started preaching the benefits of training in a lower stance. prior to that shotokan men trianed like most other's. his beleif's were that by training kata and kihon, and to a degree the kihon kumite in a low stance helped to improve the leg strength and speed. in self defence situations and even in free sparing people will raise their stance to allow for better mobility, thats true, im not argueing with you. but like i said the idea was to improve your speed by use of the low stance, i think it works and i teach it.

and i (i can't speak for all karate ka now) do train from a higher more natural stance as well when i work on my heavy bag or even when i spar with a friend. i agree with you completly that the best way to understand something is to actally DO it, and while training in a deep stance is not a cruch as you would think, i agree its not AS close as training in the more natural stance, but its not the worst thing either.

hands in the same place, i guess for me to explain it any further i'd need to put my hands on you and show you, or maybe i could video my self for a better example, either way you made up your mind.

the reverse punch is closer to the cross then you think man, well mine is. and its not a new age ashihara-krav maga-combat hapkido-sport karate murdering of the cross either, its traditional and im proud of it. the things you brought up, boxers feet are closer, well so would the karateka's in a live situation, the long stance is for the dojo like i said twice already. the boxer is more square: please clear that up, the karateka's body should be close to parallel with the opponents. the boxers hands don't move to his hip and back again: neither does the karateka's, his hand only go to the hip in training, in the dojo to teach the retraction motion, im self defence the hands protect the body the best way they can. being up by the head is a good way to protect the head, what about the groin, or a low tackle, if the hands are up to high (boxer high) then they take longer to defend a low double leg shoot(for example). he does not fully extend: no one who punches correctly will fully extend either, its bad for the elbow. but i proably misinturpeted that one, please explain.

yes i mean kill him!!!lol, it was just a figure of speach, and i thought you might take a swing as i wrote it,lol.

as for the karateka waiting to intercept your attack and using it as the opening, yes, i was tought it in terms of reaction time training, in a way. its way over my head to explain it in text, so let me se an example of good 'ol bruce. when bruce lee used to watch boxing matches he would try and "predict" the next punch by watching carefully the body movement, position, and general habits of the boxers. im sure yo can do it too, just watch any kind of fight sport, mma, boxing, tkd, who cares and just pay close attention to the competetors, and try to just "feel" them out befor they move. with training you can get better and better at it and even catch them befor the move at all and stall them just from your own i said, over my head to explain in text.... you do it in sparing naturally, you just have to be relaxed and not jumpy or faked out. it can be done, i've done it, but if done wrong, ie you move to late, then your not going to acomplish anytihng, but move at the right time, ie when your opponent thinks he has cought you flat footed, and you catch him by suprise while standing face to face with him.

as for level grond: while action is faster then reaction by definetion, i'm asking you to challenge your concept of who is really acting first here. its like pulling your opponetn allong on a string, he thinks he's founf an opening, but its just a trap, you catch him while he's making the fight or flight choice. tricky to say the least. or bs im sure you'll

you keep brining up the hands at your waist thing like its bad??, its just a traing tool, like a heavy bag. i can arguee that hitting a heavy bag isn't hitting a person there fore its crappy training for the real thing. while it's great training, its just training, so it the hand on the hip, its not that pronounced in a live situation, and we do train more then just the clasical way, kinda like how judo is toght clasical and "tourniment" kinda....i do train self defence drills, and i do tell my students that its not going back that far in real life, and we teain it too, more then meets the eye i guess.

like i said, both hands in the same place at the same time "can be usefull", its a good way to apply extra strenght and leverage at the right time and in the right circumstances. you call that wasted movement i call it usefull movement, in the right context. i like to have a few good reliable techniqes like any one, bt nothing is stoping me, or you, from exploring other kinds of motion, a little expiramentation is how yo got to the stage yor at now after all.

honestly, im glade you do speak about the things yo do, this forum is going dead latly and a little good discussion is a great thing!!!

and here here to oldman and his boobushi in progress. im still counting the moments till he releases it publically!!

yours in life
its not supposed to make sense

#316329 - 01/22/07 09:54 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
No problems! I love stories!

Hmmmm. Where to start....

Low stances for speed. I half buy it I guess. Being in a deeper stance in prolonged periods of time COULD make your muscles stronger, therefore giving you the ABILITY to BECOME faster. "Fast" often has very little to do with the "speed" of things. Often its about timing. And "Fast" also has little to do with muscle mass. Sure you are strengthening your legs when down low but you arent moving the feet and working the footwork. Thats where you get "Fast", from the feet. A person can only attack or defend as quickly as his feet will allow him.

The dreaded X Block.
You seem to consistantly make reference to it in terms of grappling so I will do my best to deal with the issue in those terms.. First you must get to the opponent and get your hands on them in this "X" fashion. When moving in to grab this way do you go in one hand first and then the other, or do you go in both hands at once? I ask because I see serious flaws with both methods, so I am curious as to what your approach may be.

Lets talk about your non- new age ashihara-krav maga-combat hapkido-sport karate murdering reverse punch.

You said "Boxers feet are closer, well so would the Karateka's in a live situation" To that I pose the question, is your training not "alive"?

You said"In the dojo they teach you to retract the hands, in self defense the hands protect the body in the best way they can" in reference to waist level hands. Well, why teach what you do not intend to use?

"The hands head high is good for defending the head but what about the groin?" Let me try to explain my defensive structure to you, if I can. I use a strong hand lead, the lead extended slightly further than the rear. Tight, like a boxer,slightly modified. My fists are face height, where I can see my opponnent over my knuckles. My Chin is tucked and I lean in slightly to fascilitate slipping, bobbing and weaving, covering, and counter hitting. I use my ebows to protect my sides and midsection and to also spike my opponent's attack when necessary. My feet are just at/over shoulder width, knees with a slight bend and I am on my toes. My hands and feet never stop moving whether I am attacking, defending or waiting. Any low lovel kick or strike is checked or blocked by my feet. I never have need to drop my hands lower than sternum height from a standup position.

Reaction based defense. Action is always faster than reaction. Now you can try to predict your opponent, but that doesnt always work. You may not have that time because he may be better than you thought from the get go. What happens if your prediction fails? You've wasted all that time waiting, and now you are on the defensive. In a fight there are two things I dont want. One is to be the last to act and the second is on the defensive. I want to dictate the fight. Of course this can be done, you can evaluate an opponent and sometimes accurately predict him, however you must realize that the percentage rate in the dojo is higher because of your previous knowledge of your opponents and that you cant base a whole self defense upon acting last. Sometimes when trying to trap the opponent, you may have trapped yourself.

As for eploration, is this not what discussion is about? I explore many things. Its great to have these talks. And I too would Like to congratulate mark on his accomplishment. Well done, friend.
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

#316330 - 01/23/07 08:36 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Barad Offline

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427

Unfortunately I really have to disagree with you about the use of the low X "block" and its place and meaning in kata. The application for blocking a front kick was popular in Shotokan schools twenty years ago or more but in most places I go nowadays, if that application is mentioned, it is generally discounted immediately as leaving you wide open to the obvious follow up jab and reverse punch. Plus I have never and I mean never seen free sparring Shotokan people ever use juji uke.

You reference Gankaku and Kanku Dai.IMO if you want to understand what the technique means in that sequence, you need to look at the prior and/or following techniques. In Gankaku, the kneeling juji uke is preceded by a turning shoulder throw from manji uke. This is far more likely therefore to represent a choke or arm/shoulder lock (as also found after the jump in Heian Godan) applied to someone on the ground than turning 270 degrees (i.e. the long way!) to block a low kick from behind. The same is true of the first X movement in Kanku Dai which follows and is part of a movement dumping someone on the ground ("turning the wheel" movement).

It also appears in Heian Yondan as a neck or arm/shoulder manipulation-following a simultaneous cover and strike (the high double open hand position to the right, left hand high)you grab the head bringing it to the hip and thrust down into low X position. If you try this on a partner, you will find that your hands whilst grabbing his head or locking his arm or shoulder are in or very close to X position as you bring them down.


#316331 - 01/23/07 03:10 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with most of useage and add that the X-block or X-position and isn't neccessary just a block, especailly a stagnate BLOCK, it can also be an interception or a destruction of a limb. True it could be a choke, check strike on a down person. arm lock or rev ankle lock. But what I've used it most for is as a destruction technique as the kick comes in its greeted by knuckles on the instep that, that preceeds to trap the leg pull or push him into a position that opens him to vicious groin kicking into a take down. These 3-4 technique flow together against a would be limping assailant.

In a all shoes on you strike the ankle or calf, knock the leg out of the way, rising into a head butt, sweep and stomp. You can jam the kick, punching straight into the grion. You can check a knee and back out to safety or double leg take down. I find the low/high X-position a feasible technique if you envision flowing to the next move, not waiting for a picture.

As for two hand blocking if you have to, U to have to, don't get hit bc you don't want to block with 2 hands, as long as you don't get hit solid it worked and thats all you need for a second chance. Some system teach it others don't.

As for Karate not effective against skilled opponent, forget that we almost invented open all out fighting, back in the 70s and in Okinawan Bushi vs. Chinese Pirates, no rules. So many only see Karate as a sport.

Edited by Neko456 (01/23/07 03:22 PM)

#316332 - 01/23/07 04:04 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
ok, as far as staying in a low stance for prolonged periods of time, like you said it is an ok way to encourage leg strength. however, only staying in that stance for say 15 minutes at a time is not going to give you speed, like you said, and thats why we do prtice foot work, and body shifting, the japanease term is tai sabaki i think. you might have seen it slng around other threads. we pratice alot of foor work and ways to move into temporary blind sopts and other things, we don't just hang out in gi's and see who can stand a low kiba dachi the longest,lol.

as for entering into the x block position: obvisouly you would approach the entry for this technique like any other, your main goal is to make it past his weapons as safely as posible. as a rule of thumb, i wouldn't just raise my hands into the position and walk towards a flury of punches and pray to god. the best way i've fond to teach this technique is to start form a clinch position and work the way around different arm positions from there, we also teach ways (through foot work for example) on how to enter into your own effective range wihile staying safe form your opponents. since your dieing to shoot down an application, lets fire this one out. say you find yourself in the clasic wrestlers clintch, one hand on your opponents tricept, and the other around his neck, and he has you simeralary. how you got into this position is not up for discuaaion here, as range is a constantally changing thing and its verry natural to "clintch", while it may not be natural to clintch well, but thats another topic, and one we do tecch our students. ok, so your left hand is on his neck and your right on his tricept, from here, your left hand keeps hold of his neck and your right comes off his arm and across for a close vertical fist punch as it corsses his body, the punch strikes the side of his jaw, or ear, or clips the chin on the way, your choice really. right here and now, after the punch has been exacuted, yours hands should be in roughly the position for a high x block, almost crossed at the wrist or forearm. from here, because he is stuned for only a slpit second, both your hands should be over, or close too his right shoulder, they then snap down on his forearm, or grab some clothing and pull down quickly and with a forcefull jerk. this motion will cause a whiping like action of his head, and while his head is coming down his neck will be open for a moment, here your left hand keeps control of his right arm and your right hand snaps out as a back fist, or ridge hand toward his neck, face, eyes, what ever. so, starting froma clinch, you strike him once and thats the high x block, then they snap down while "crossed" thats the low x block, and then they control and strke at the same time, maybe a "reenforced" block as some people call it, moroto uke i think.

its all done real quick, obvisouly. as far as i know its a kind of jun fan, or traping as a JKD friend of mine told me after i showed it to him. yor traping one arm and striking.

fire away on that one. and for the record, if the circumstances change, for example the opponent moves, or shifts, the karateka, or any trained fighter really, will shifty accordingly. he may abandon one technique when the oppertunity arises.

and thats the general idea behind any fighting tradition isn't it?, for every body position there are 1000 counters, throws, strikes, what ever. it should be the fighters goal to apply the right move at the right time to push the opponent over the edge to defeat. there was a thread a while ago talking about fighting styles, and i beleive you had a similar idea of fighting, just complete your opponents other half as it were, be his shadow. he kills him self, by his own weakesses. karate techniques are ment to enhance a persons sefl defence abilities, like any martial art, not limit them to static useless crap. the real world may be a nother story tho.....

the defensive modle you outlined seems ideal in theory, but you do have to admit that your not picture perfet all the time, no one is. fatigue, fear, shock, there are alot of thing out there that can cause the momentary slip up that is the k.o.

as for asking if my traing is live or not, don't be so foolish bud. when we train we have spefic goals in mind, some times it's to work on one aspect of technique or application or theory, or any combination of the lot. please don't put foward that yor the only one who tains hard or correct.

not intending to se the draw arm: 3 time must be the charm. yes we do intend on using it, but to different degrees, it may not always be that far back on the hip if your pulling on someones arm or clothing. it may be back that far cause it just forcefully checked the opponents limb and is making maximal use of rotational force. the main reason why we train it at the hip in the dojo is case it does add power and speed, so when your pratcing line work for the purpose of learning body dynamics it is sometimes a good idea to overeagerate some form of motion so that yo can better nderstand and apply it it another form. we do use it, both hands are always doing something, always. covering your head is only one option, we don't want to limit ourselves.

i know that you won't always be able to feel yor opponent out and move in the best place at the best time, but its really the safest way to end a confrontation, as quickly as posible, the one technique idea. because it dosen't always work we train other options as well, like the clinch work for example, and ground work. like i said, the most options posible, while still maintaining a solid base of core "dependables" as well, befor that gets shot down.

i remember reading something about a trend in JKD gyms a while back, that some of them had given up the traping portion becaus rthey felt it was unpratical. either way, your right, failing to trap someone may lead to a crapy position for yourself, but any technique preformed poorly will result in that inch away from defeat thing i was talking about earler. i understand tho that you prefre to use techniques that put yourself in a mch less threatened state if messed up, that is a good way to train i agree, so long as you don'w totally abondon something that is not totally useless, just because its not the sure thing.

ok, fire away, this is getting interesting. and the more you challange the better my students will understand, so thanks for the feedback chen!

yours in life
its not supposed to make sense

#316333 - 01/23/07 04:13 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I think there is a bottom line to all this interpretation mumbo jumbo.

Doesn't matter what the move is if you can make it work for you in your interpretation in a real situation.

Unless it's farmer burns wrestling.
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#316334 - 01/23/07 05:02 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: BrianS]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Yeah, I don't know if its a "western" thing or what.

But the second you present a picture or a drawing or a snapshot--anything that is static and people INSTANTLY jump to locking that down as "how "X" is supposed to be done."

For good or ill--that somehow becomes ingrained as a sort of "default position" in terms of what is viewed as "correct."

The longer I train the more conveinced I am that is one of the main reason that direct application was never seen as utterly "fixed" by the old timers.

They knew and tried to work around the human tendency to "label" things as being "this OR that" NOT "this AND that."
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#316335 - 01/23/07 06:14 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Barad]
Shonuff Offline

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 604
Loc: London, UK
Hey Barad

You might want to have a re-read of my post, I realise its quite long so it's easy to miss bits.

As far as the jab counter, the point I was trying to explain is that you are using this block to make them throw the jab. Paragraphs 3 to 6 of my post explain why if used against the right type of kick, one has enough time after jamming the kick to intercept or interupt the upper body attack. One key point I didn't mention though is that ideally this technique should be used going forward (though not exclusively) to cut off the attacking motion.
Like I said it all comes down to using the technique in the correct circumstances.

Please understand also I do not dispute the other applications that you mentioned, I don't even dispute that this may not be an ideal use of the technique, but it does work. And this is from someone who discounted the juji uke movement's blocking potential, just like the other modern shotokan folks.
I would guess that Shotokan people don't use juji uke in sparring because they don't practice applying it (like most of the techniques they have hidden away in kata ) and as you said they dispute its effectiveness. Try throwing a smeaky groin kick at some of the Shotokan guys while at the pub after training, you might see one pull it out then .

Just out of curiosity, have you ever seen a shotokaner pull out the app you described in sparring?

When I refrenced Gankaku and Kankudai I was actually talking about the jodan juji uke, not gedan (sorry for the confusion) and I was only really thinking about an app of Gankaku.
The app you described for Gankaku's kneeling x-block is precisely what I was talking about when at the end of my post I said (about low x-block): I personally think it makes a good floor restraint but I prefer that use when it is performed from kneeling.

When I talked about the what the kata try to show us through this techniques (low x-block) context, I should have really said: where this technique (low x-block) is shown in a kata with blocking in mind.
I was thinking of the low x-block as a block as opposed to the undefined and much debated juji uke movement. I agree that there are some kata where this movement is simply not a block at all, but mostly I see the blocking application of juji uke as one layer of application, with other layers surrounding it. For me personally the key point where these layers off apps are concerned is that each layer that you look at is consistent through the kata and teaches something/s with a core rule behind them.
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

#316336 - 01/23/07 09:26 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: student_of_life]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Well Student, let me first say that you put up a good arguement. Good stuff.

Yeah, Ive seen the word Tai Sabaki tossed around here a few times. Im not a Karateka by any means really so I dont know many of the terms, but I get what your saying. So how does this relate to your kata work, is it done at the same time? My work with kata wasnt static per say, but it did feel blocky and robotic in a sense. Because of the way they shifted from one stance to another, and to be honest most of these types of things are positions that I dont find myself in, which caused me to wonder why I did them at all.

Your example was a good one. The application was good. The only thing that stuck out to me was the initial positioning in the clinch. I dont clinch in this fashion. I have several different ways that I clinch but not like that. If I clinch there are things I look for. Can I control the wrist? Can I make it inside, under his arm to his body? Can I control the head? If I can control the wrist, I want One wrist and my other arm controlling his head. This way his free arm can only strike the back of my head, and its hard as a rock.

If I can get under his free arm I will and clinch around the torso, making sure to push upwards so that he cannot attack me with his fists. As my other arm wraps around his front it protects my face.

If I can get his head Im going to do it in one of three ways. A sideheadlock, a thai clinch, both hands pulling down hard on the back of his neck, elbows tight to protect inside. Or I will go for the Cobra Clutch. Its a RNC type manuever, I believe the BJJ term for it is Mata Leo. Anyways thats just a little idea of how I clinch up. Most any one of these situations is very short and followed by some sort of slam choke or series of strikes.

Like I said, your application was good. As for the Alive question, hey I had to ask. But just because I ask doesnt mean I presume Im the only one, as I know that that will never be the case. Apparently you have a pretty good study of my ideas from the things Ive said around here as you summed it up pretty well.

"The defensive Model you outlined seems Ideal.."
Well Thank you, like you said though, no one is picture perfect all the time. I also have a kind of "shuffle" when in a more upright position, a'la Bruce Lee., M. Ali. Etc. Tons of people say it doesnt work, tons of people do. I think it CAN or Cannot. Like your X Block I suppose.

About the elbow example, I never understood what the mystery was about. The Elbow retracts for more power, or the elbow is a wrist grab or the elbow is to someone behind you. Then why not train it as those things instead of labeling it a punch? TMA in general is bad about that sort of thing. Nothing is ever just direct, theres always some hidden bunkai, just comeforth and teach it is all Im saying.

One Technique. I used to think this way. Because I used to believe I could beat every opponent in one shot. Worked for a little while. Now, Im thinking about my fifth move by the time my first has made contact. I always have to have a coarse of action because I want to dictate what happens. If I can leave myself in a fairly uncompromising position, the better chance I have to stick roughly to that plan. Which is why I dont cross my arms or my feet. Those were some of the first things I was taught when I began to look outside of TMA and Ive stuck with it. If you ever have a chance to work with a skilled Wing Chun Practitioner then by all means do so. They can quickly show you why not to do so. They are big on trapping. JKD is getting less and less of it. Im using less myself. There are a few things I kept, but I try to keep things simple.
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

#316337 - 01/24/07 12:17 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
back at ya man, good discusion leads to a better grasp of the material. thanks for paying attention to what i have to say, your feed back is a great sounding board for me!

as for the "mysticism" surrounding much of the pratical application of traditional karate groups, i agree. alot of it is not tought for reasons far beyond my understanding. and your attitude is shared by many a karate ka who loves their art and is fed up with all the bs, now a days people like iain abernethy and geof tompson are making a living off of teaching form the heart and for the gut wrentching reality of real self defence. its alomst like a new wave in the karate world, its still on the up and it won't touch all pratictioners, but its putting the fear in the mcdojos that now their students are getting the courrage to ask more questions and take there tuition money else were.

about kata: it can be praticed and used like and other training tool or drill, you can have different objectives in mind and focus on any concept you feel like working on. like anything. as far as i understnad tai sabaki (body shifting) as it relates to kata, well its still a little foggy in my own head. as i understand it, the idea of body shifting and transition from one stane to another in kata is much more simple then many think. for example i'll use a "simple" combination from the first kata taught in my style, hiean shodan. the begining 2 moves are, a low "block" in a front stance followed by a steping punch again in a front stance. you often see this sequence preformed with one student defending against an attacker who is steping in with a long tellegraphed attack then steping back, real life expirence tells you this just doen't happen. hopefully they are traing this as a tool for increasing their speed in low stances, therefore in creasong their foot work speed, and posture and power. the way i prefer to interpret this sequence is as follows: you could be steping in to jam your opponents space and smothering his technique, the block, when the draw arm is made se of can range from a take down to an arm lock, or a low shot to the groin, almost a safe bet that ant one is going to bring up in there tracks. then by making use of the sometimes forgotten crecent step, you can tie up your opponents hands while to step arond his leg and preform an osoto gari (major outter leg reap) as your legs are doing there job, the punching hand would be striking with a close gut shot, from there it sweeps up his body and grips/strikes his throat hard to complete the throw. the stance trasition is used to teach the student ini which direction his body weight should be moving, and seeing that combat is a constantally moving and changing thing, the pauses between kata tecniques is poor realiaty training, kind of like the over emphasized sine wave movement in TKD forms, it has a place in the dojo. sensei Hidetaka Nishyama alwasy scolds his students when they preform kata saying they should flow like a river, the techniques preformed in the kata are juck like rocks or sticks, things in the way of the river, the river dosn't stop and then start again, it just flows on over to the next thing, crashing through obsticales. i really like that explination. i think it should be emphasized more. so that our kata flow more like tai chi, or other chinease gung fu forms.

as for the one technique theory, i used to romantisize this idea too. still do in alot of ways, but to me, it makes more sense to at least strive for it. i mean any one will tell you that the less time you spend in a fight the less likely yo are to get hurt, so training to end a fight fast is not a cruch, but only throwing one punch is. and truthfully my sparing has become more like fun over the past year, i really had to overhaul my own fighting style and force myself to keep attcking. in a turniment id rather have the ref give me a warning for being a little to aggressive then get the holy ghost knocked out of me because i threw one punch and expected the ref to save me. same goes for defending myself.

thanks about the application, its what i plan on working my students on as they progress, i want them to realize the gap between inch perfect preformance and what it really takes, and have them fill it with there own ideas.

even though you may not use the x block applcation, i'm happy you at least considered the idea behind it. thats what ticks me off the most, when people just shoot down what i say without really trying to see it my way, i feel like i try very hard to appreciate different points of view, different styles or anything and im glade you gave me the time of day, thanks again bud!

yours in life
its not supposed to make sense

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