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#316418 - 02/08/07 03:02 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Unsu,

You have a lot of knowledge on your style. I respect that. It seems like a good approach. Im not a fan of kata myself but I understand why people choose to do them. After reading the thread on Honto Kata, Id like to explore that a little further anyways, maybe a more streamlined kata would appeal to me more.

I agree that MMA isnt going anywhere, not after UFC and such, and neither is karate. Id hate to see either of them gone or cheapened by commercialization, but its a very real possibility that happens to many arts. Like you said, that doesnt mean the material is superior, unfortunately.

The thing you said about Traditional systems being coined MMA, what did you mean?

I also think your view of MMA may be a little askew. Sure its the new wave to people some people but MMA concepts have been around for a long time. Also you described it as "basic all range fighting geared mostly to competition." Thats true yet not. Let me explain. MMA utilizes boxing for example. Boxing, as far as striking arts are concerned, is rather basic since it contains few strikes. Less than a dozen, yet its called the sweet science. Because its complexity is not in the techniques themselves, but in the delivery system of those techniques. Then you have Muay Thai. A very simple and direct art, and highly aggressive. However, the training ties in perfectly with the boxing, then later, as you work the clinch in Thai Boxing, you begin to work the clinch for BJJ purposes. Eventually being able to flow uninterrupted between the three at any given moment. A quality MMA school is going to emphasize the transitional movement and footwork as much as they work actual technique. But you are right, there is little art, compared to Kung Fu or Karate. The art is in the application itself.

As for hard contact MA, we do do it rough, but many people get the misconception that we beat each other up constantly like fight club and that isnt the case. Do we go harder than most? Maybe. But it is combat, after all. People will get hit, and sometimes hurt. I dont look at a jammed finger or busted lip as anything significant, yet many times in Traditional MA, if theres a bloody nose theres "Been an accident". Sure these things arent very fun but thats the price you gotta pay sometime to see if what your doing is really going to work like you think or hope that it will. At least IMO.

Nice talking with you..... CZ
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316419 - 02/08/07 04:27 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Unsu Offline
Member

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 142
Loc: San Antone, Tejas
The MMAs=Good TMAS thing is self-explanatory. Having boxed for many years, as did my sensei and Mike Stone and Bill Hayes and even Trias, I know the essence of boxing. In fact I might be a better boxer than karate-ka. Having kickboxed starting in the 1980s and continuing until recently, I can say that the the Yaw-Yan and Thai Boxing I cross-trained in in the Philippines gives me a decent understanding of what is good percussive fighting and what isn't. The first MA I trained in was Kodokan Judo. I started when I was 7 and continued until they closed down the base my pops was stationed at. My understanding of throwing and wrestling is very sound. That is my foundation MA, again maybe better than my karate. I dunno.

I am actually friends with Ryron Gracie. One of his best friends went to H.S. with me in the Philippines. As a consequence my exposure to GJJ has been significant since 1993. I hosted a Caique JJ seminar at UTSA in 2001, and have been told that I'm a natural at groundfighting. I dunno. It's hard to evaluate oneself.

So the point I'm trying to make is that if anyone has known and trained in MMAs it's someone like me or many of the real fighters/masters of Okinawan karate. Before all of the groundfighting and MMAs I actually fought on the ground and mixed my MAs and used it in real fights. That's just the truth.

That's why I'm saying a good style of old school karate will teach you all of these concepts. On Okinawan it is called the study of "ti-chi-ki" or how the hand/arm, foot/leg and body move. Even more salient than Honto Kata is this training concept. I won't go into details. Suffice it to say that the percussive element of karate, the grappling aspect (tuidi/tuite) and the PP aspect which includes a lot of chin na and Chinese dian xue (kyusho) as well as kobudo/kobujutsu, the ethical side of karate and the intellectual side along with form training make real karate a MMA. If you have any of these elements missing you might go searching and having very little knowledge of karate as it should be you might start using terms like "bunkai" (analysis) without realizing you mean "ti-chi-ki" which is an Okinawan thing not a Japanese one.

I gotta go. Hope all this makes my point a little clearer. I don't want to have to type my lineage and experience everytime you cats forget. No need to think I don't know it in depth when it comes to MAs training and styles period, because I really do. Sorry if it ruffels some feathers. Pax...


Edited by Unsu (02/08/07 04:30 AM)

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#316420 - 02/08/07 07:44 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
forgive me fo using the japanses terms as its all i know, but your sayin that this "real" karate your always talkin about is training at all ranges? the over used stand up fighting, vital strikes, cliching, take downs, grapeling, thorws and in general just being ever to fight every where?

i know the level of detail that one goes into will maybe never satisfy you, but thats "generally" it isn't it? karate is fighting with every thing you've got, self defence with no limits.

my dojo makes a regular pratice of ground and clinch fighting, while we do spend most of our time on the clasical stand up aspect of striking (cause thats our prefered range, nothing againts any other) we train as much as we can.

i feel that, that is how karate should be tought. im not saying that every karate ka should go train jj, boxing, and judo, but it sure as hell would help! what i would like to see is karate ka exploring their own art and using it at all ranges. like i said with my kime, i orioginally misunderstood, so i had to re approach it and mold my own head to what kime is, not change kime. i would love to see karate dojo's becoming what i feel they should be, a place to learn about fighting, in a way karate is the traditional MMA or krav maga. alot of people have changed it for their own reasons, but when i teach i aim to show my students how to fight. and i use the same kata to show multiple ranges of fighting.

hopefully if im close to what your saying we were never that far off, besides a few years and a few thousand miles.

yours in life
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#316421 - 02/08/07 08:23 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: medulanet]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Medulanet,

You are basically correct-no kime, short distancing, heavy hands, distraction, mawashi uke, sanchin dachi and vertical fist punch and grappling but based around Shotokan kata and Aragaki Seisan plus others versions/forerunners of Shotokan kata for comparison (Kusanku, Naihanchi, Chinto, Wanshu etc). There are other Shotokan groups that train in this way to some extent but not as comprehensively as under Vince as far as I have seen. How did you find the courses? Not one to enthuse normally but I love 'em, even when getting used as a punch bag by Mr Morris.

B.

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#316422 - 02/08/07 01:49 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Unsu,

Now I have a better understanding of your karate. It sounds very similar to the things we do, just with more traditional undertones and kata training. Sounds good.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316423 - 02/08/07 04:03 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Chen Zen]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
amazing what famous name-dropping can do eh? suddenly you 'understand' him. lol

teasing you Chen.

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#316424 - 02/08/07 04:27 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: Ed_Morris]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
lol I hear ya. Actually Gracie was the only name I recognized. He is going to fight Shamrock in two days here in Memphis.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#316425 - 03/14/07 07:09 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Unsu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I think that what I've seen, read and heard has made up my mind. I have always known who he was, but I wondered if any of that mattered to you learned martialists? As for my mind being up my arse I don't think so. I think the problem with many of these opinions is that they are uninformed. People are basing things on what they have experienced, which is basically a variation on the same weak theme. So what is your take on the low x-block seen in derivative kid kata, but missing from the original shuri te or goju adult kata? I've done schoolboy (-do) karate and karate with the original intent, and unless you know the older forms or the forms with the proper tachi kata, kamae kata, sound biomechanics and so on how can you even begin to make an educated guess much less speak on what was intended through kids forms? Do you understand my stance and stubborness? Now get your head out of Iain's jock. He is another hope boy forcing square pegs into round holes. His demeanor means squat if he is just guessing. "Niceness" doesn't equate to knowledge. Which is very evident on these forums. He is making money and garnering praise based on a gimmick and ignorance, imo.





Hi Guys.
Hi Unsa.

From what I have observed of Ian Abernathy;s teachings and the amount of street fights I have seen I think the techniques he has derived from kata would seem practical. After all wasn’t karate created for self defence? Given the amount of karate ka trained using the basic pinans then why shouldn’t he have come up with a practical use for them?

How does a person test any technique from any form of fighting?
Hope boy? I don’t think so. Jeff Thompson with whom Ian is associated with worked most of life in the world of regular daily violence, Perhaps if you researched the background somewhat of people before commenting?.



Edited by jude33 (03/14/07 07:13 AM)

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#316426 - 03/19/07 11:24 AM Re: Low x-block [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I was just wondering what people think about the traditional - blocking a kick - application of this technique?

Do people think it works, it doesn't work? Is it practical? Do you prefer other applications, etc.





Other application. In kata it would more than likely infer another of the never ending escapes from a wrist hold.

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#316427 - 03/19/07 01:50 PM Re: Low x-block [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jude,

You are absolutely right about Iain Abernethy and by reputation certainly about Geoff Thompson but you will never convince Unsu that anyone with a Shotokan background has anything worthwhiel to say on kata (or anything in fact.)

B.

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