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#316134 - 01/18/07 11:00 PM Kicking from a back stance
Abluemoon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 10
I am studying Shorin ryu Shidokan Karate I love the art but the one thing that get to me is that a lot of their kick are from a back stances. I do ITF Taekwondo and I do my kicks from a upright stance but some of the black belt there are telling me to only do the kicks in a backstance. The Sensei there is really good and he don't say anything about it. I just want to see what people think about it kicking from a backstance.

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#316135 - 01/19/07 01:59 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
I wouldn't do it.

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#316136 - 01/19/07 08:34 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
steelwater Offline
On the Ansatsuken installment-plan

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 222
I could see a usage for kicking in back stance if you had someone's arm and was pulling them into you, since one of the purposes of back stance is controlling someone even if they are larger and stronger than you. You could use a sidekick to brace yourself, and push the leg inward against their ribs while pulling their arm outward in an attempt to dislocate their arm.

Messy application? Yes. Will it work? Probably not, but it IS painful to have that done to you.

But hey, I'm just trying to see where the people at your dojo is coming from.
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#316137 - 01/19/07 10:19 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Abluemoon

Might be just something that they do in that specific dojo, or it might be something that they have you doing at the level in which your training at the art in their dojo.

I personally don't much care for the backstance--assumeing we are talking about the same "backstance" here.

But that may be because my backstance isn't very good.

IMO, if its not causeing you any pain or injury--and the head teacher seems ok with it--then do it as requested.

You might find you hate it or you might find it works well for you, but there is little point in learning a "new" system if your not actually going to try things in a "new" fashion.

His dojo, his rules.

Unless of course your being asked to do stuff that is harmful or injurious--in which case--your body, your rules.
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#316138 - 01/19/07 10:27 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Old style TKD use to spar from a back/T stance and deliever all their kicks from that stance. You could see how it could be used. You are already crouched to jump or spin from this stance and front leg kicks are quick most of your weights on the back leg. Things have changed the upright stance maybe better?? Seems more availble for sweeps and throws, but thats another topic.

Kicking from a back stance works, but seems old fashsion now
it used to be the way it was done, in some dojangs.


Edited by Neko456 (01/19/07 10:33 AM)
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#316139 - 01/19/07 10:58 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: cxt]
Abluemoon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 10
I do everything their way. I like there blocking stlye a lot better then TKD. The only kick I don't like doing in a backstance is the back leg snapkick cuz it's the 90 degree stance.

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#316140 - 01/19/07 01:27 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
it is not that difficult providing you have the flexibility (hip) for it. At times, I would fight in a deep back stance when fighting someone I felt didn't have the power to move me or penetrate a deep, solid defensive posture. This would bring them in closer to me and then I would kick to the head from that deep stance. It would catch them off guard everytime.

This was all done if free sparring. It (kicking to the head from a deep stance) had no practical application in a real scenario. It was fun to see their eyes get real big when you shoot a kick from being almost on the ground to their face.



The biggest benefit for me was that it pulled people in because they thought they only had to worry about my hand techniques when I was that low or that deep in my stance. Once they closed the distance, I went from there. I had no lateral mobility from that stance but usually didnt need it as they would come to me and then try to use power to penetrate the stance.
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#316141 - 01/19/07 03:03 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: RazorFoot]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
There are a few good options from back stance. In particular front snap kick or a low level savate type kick.
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#316142 - 01/21/07 01:27 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
Ogoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Fort Myers, FL
I study Shorin-ryu also. If back stance is neko dachi, it is a legitimate technique. Speaking generally, you should be able to kick from any stances or most stances. If I am in a natural stance, I kick from that stance. if I am in cat stance, I kick from that stance. Changing from cat/back stance or any other stance to an upright stance adds time to the delivery of the technique.
Trust the instruction you are getting; with time it will make more sense to you.

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#316143 - 01/21/07 04:05 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
Shawn Sinn Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/24/04
Posts: 17
Loc: Kansas
I have a love for the backstance, and have kicked from it many times, but I cheat at it pending on the kick. In doing any kick off the front foot is rather easy. Now off the back foot to do a kick, I just simply shift my weight forward. Thus my backstance turns into a upright stance for just a split second so my back foot is free.
Good luck.

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#316144 - 01/21/07 05:24 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
savate type kick?, the purring kick??
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#316145 - 01/22/07 12:51 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Hard to get much power into a lead leg kick from back stance IMHO, although it is possible to produce a front or sidekick that looks ok. I guess if your target is groin or inside knees, power matters less as the points are sensitive but still not my ideal stance for kicking.

B

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#316146 - 01/22/07 04:45 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Ogoun]
Zanaffar Offline
The Iron Curtain

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 33
Quote:

Trust the instruction you are getting; with time it will make more sense to you.




I disagree 100%! Instead of blindly trusting the instruction you're getting, question all the instruction you're getting. Never take any techniques taught to you at face value. Ask your instructor how these techniques apply to fighting as a whole!

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#316147 - 01/23/07 02:53 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 184
Loc: woking, surrey,uk
A good kicker should be able to kick from any where.

nothing wrong kicking from back stance - it's classic karate - found in numerous kata - eg Heian Yondan (kokustu dachi - back stance, kakiwaki uke - wedging block and then mae geri - front kick)

it might seem strange to some people - however in some traditional arts they do - do thier kicks from strange places - for example in ITF patterns like won hyo, yul guk etc they kick from a bending ready stance (standing on one leg with the other chambered at the knee in a forearm gaarding block) some might say this is also odd.

however im sure it has its uses - (see Stuart Anslows chang hon ITF applications book)

p.s - i study ITF as well as shotokan.

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#316148 - 01/24/07 06:57 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Isshinryu doesn't REALLY have a back stance. OK, in one of our katas (two if you count the sai version) there IS one instance of a back stance, but I've never seen any other applications of it.

HOWEVER, oddly enough, I deliver my best kick from it when sparring. Called a scoop kick, it's a side/back kick delivered with the front leg, and it can be delivered with power from as close as 10 inches away.
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#316149 - 01/25/07 01:23 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: charlie]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
technically correct, a fighter should kick from anywhere BUT I'll bet that the kick you launch while you taking a shower will be less effective than if you're firm-footed.

The back stance (I'm assuming that you're referring to the Shotokan version) is a defensive stance that can use the stored energy of the bent back leg to launch a gyaku-tsuki (Reverse punch) following a block.

http://www.thejks.com/Docs/kokutsu.pdf

I kick w/ the front leg will be minimally effective because of the weight disrtibution (70% back/ 30% front). Your kick will have the effect of pushing yourself back from your opponent. If you have a 50/50 weight distribution as you launch your kick, it's easy to shift the rear 50% forward to add inertia to the kick (either front or back leg).

Use the back leg you say? I don't think so. First, the back foot is 90 degrees to the side & therefore can't spring you forward.

Charlie, I suggest you try it a few times or better yet, fight w/ it. It's just plain poor body mechanics. As I said initially, I wouldn't do it (but if I HAD TO, I'd do my best)

owari

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#316150 - 01/25/07 08:05 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: charlie]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Charlie,

In Heian Yondan, you are kicking from the rear leg not the lead, a very different proposition allowing you to produce much more power than from the lead leg, which I maintain is hard to do effectively. It is a bit easier from neko ashi, whcih is what Shotokan's kokutsu dachi used to be before they got obsessed with long stances and appearance over practicality. Which other kata can you name that kick lead leg kokutsu dachi? I can't think of any off hand...


B

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#316151 - 01/25/07 11:49 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Barad]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Exactly. As a Shito-ryu practitioner w/ Shotokan training (way back when), I recognize the practicality of Nekoashi-dachi (cat stance) over Kokutsu-dachi in in all respects.

The Shito-ryu Kokutsu-dachi is a different animal. It's basically a long Zenkutsu-dachi (front stance) looking rearward - the final techniques of Pinan Godan. It's defensive application is to move away from an attacker behind you but it's offensive application is to deliver a rearward heal attack to the foot/shin. The only kicking application would be Ushiro-geri (back-kick) - a very difficult due to weight distribution.

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#316152 - 01/25/07 10:18 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
IRKguy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 56
I may have a different idea of stances, but if you are doing a 70/30 back stance, your front leg kicks are faster than in a 50/50 walking stance. (I'm mixing TKD and Karate terminology to make as much sense as I can, since those seem to be your experience--the fractions are weight distributions, back leg first.) However, they are a lot faster and actually more powerful if you shift to a 95/5 cat stance just before the kick because you are moving your weight back and then throwing it forward. Your back leg front kicks will be tricky from a back stance. From a cat stance, they will be a little slower than in 50/50 but a lot more powerful, since you are moving your whole bodyweight. If you literally did a kick from back stance without shifting your weight, you would either fly in the direction of the kick or fall over.
I tend to think of stances as a set of fluid positions. If you try to chamber a front kick off the front leg, even from an upright walking stance, you're in the cat stance position for almost half a second. If you throw it off the back leg, you're in a hook stance for almost half a second. Both stances are just static representations and momentary positions in and of one movement. I would think you would train in those stances because you are executing directly from those stances. I can't imagine you would adopt them as a pose while fighting. You might be in a naihachi or horse stance for a second while jabbing, but you immediately cross in another stance. If you train in classical stances, as the theory goes, you will be in the right stance when you are full of adrenaline and all of your muscles are tight. You train in stances to get the technique right, not as an end in and of themselves.
I know this is a basic thing, but are you pivoting your support foot? It would be difficult to deliver the kicks and probably bad for your knee if you are not. Technically, you end up in another stance, but does the kick work?
You have to consider what the sensei is doing--in motion. Every blackbelt in your school probably has another approach toward learning what the head of the school is doing. Don't discount what they say, since it worked for them, but don't be discouraged by different people stressing different things on the way to do the same thing. Try to emulate the results. It is possible that the blackbelts are telling you what they are telling you just to teach you something about the body mechanics of the art. Once you understand the principle they are teaching you, you should be able to kick well from any position. The back stance thing might be a training exercise appropriate to your level in the school and not translatible to a principle that you always kick from back stance any more than being taught how to punch in front stance or horse stance is a law of self defense. Those punching drills are exercises in body dynamics. Of course, I'm saying this not having seen the school, but I can see why they might be doing what they are doing while the Sensei is silent on the issue.

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#316153 - 01/27/07 08:47 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Barad]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 184
Loc: woking, surrey,uk
Ok sorry guys - looks like i miss read the whole point of this post - my mind doesn't work so well lately!

i thought you meant something different! i thought you were talking about kicking from the rear leg in back stance - which we do in karate - and yes i do know heian yondan - i should do being a 4th dan in shotokan! infact heian yondan is one of my favorite katas. and no i can't think of hand of any katas that kick from lead leg in back stance although it is used in combinations (shuto uke - back stance, kizama mae geri, gohon nukite - front stance)

although i do maintain that a good kicker should be able to kick from any where - stance wise - i don't mean in the shower!!!!

i appologise for not reading it properly before posting - patience!

Charlie.

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#316154 - 01/30/07 11:24 AM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: charlie]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
I prefer to look at back stance as a transitory stance, ie: I don't hang out there very long. I use it to shift backward from a more forward stance (or as a full step back), but then my retaliation is instant, whether it be keri waza or not.

I don't think the stance is the key here. I think the idea is transitioning from a defensive attitude to an offensive one, and that is what your instructor wants to pull out of you.
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#316155 - 02/04/07 05:33 PM Re: Kicking from a back stance [Re: Abluemoon]
Ogoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Fort Myers, FL
Kicking from the back stance is a legitimate technique. In the Chinto kata, there are about three front kicks with all the body weight is on the back leg. That was why I told you earlier to trust the instruction you are getting. You may be questioning the legitimacy of their instruction, because it is different rom the way you are aacustomed to training. If you train it long enough, it will feel natural to you.

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