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#315212 - 02/07/08 07:13 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFunity, I'm not sure where you are going with this? All of our testing is required by the WTF that includes sparring, breaking, patterns, etc. The WTF is not just the sparring rules, or not as it has been explained to me. My testing certificates all show the WTF Taekwondo Alliance of Alberta, the WTF Canada Taekwondo Federation and also the WTF itself.

Perhaps for myself and von1 you could explain what you are looking for and we may be better equipped to answer.




Yes this was what I was looking for. I think the very informative & well written post above explains what I was going to post. I have to be honest, I could not have said it that good, nor do I have that deepth of knowledge on the subject, as I am ITF. Most of what I have learned regarding the fact that the WTF is JUST a sports body, comes from talks with others on forums such as this.

Now the ITF is a MA organization. In fact, it was the 1st world wide governing body for TKD, established in Seoul, SK in 1966, 7 years before the WTF (1973). The ITF has a set syllabus that all ITF numbered affiliated schools have to follow. The extent to which all schools follow is varied, but many would concide that it is followed to a larger extent than the Kukkiwon schools do. They do have a system in place to help insure compliance, but it is far from perfect. I make no claim that one is better than the other, or that following a set syllabus is better than doing your own thing. However, I offer it to merely show that the ITF can be & often is referred to as a style of TKD. Now the proper style name would be Chang HonTK-D , the pen name of the founder.

So my overall point or bottom line would be, there is no style of WTF TKD, just a WTF sport. There is not set WTF training syllabus, other than the tournament rules. So to claim one is WTF on one hand & say they are not just a sport & to say one has WTF certification or follows their training syllabus, doesn't make sense to me. I thank the new poster with contributing a great 1st post & hope there is more to come!

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#315213 - 02/07/08 08:44 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Yes,

This is an excellent definition. It has been one of my pet peeves for a long time, but worse than that, I have given into calling them WTF or ITF TKD just because I was getting tired of having to double up on posts "Kukki TKD (WTF)" or "Chang Hon TKD (ITF). Very nice job, Thank you !

VDJ

ITFunity,

Don't sell yourself short. You have made some very good posts written just as articulately.

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#315214 - 02/07/08 11:22 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Now the ITF is a MA organization. In fact, it was the 1st world wide governing body for TKD, established in Seoul, SK in 1966, 7 years before the WTF (1973). The ITF has a set syllabus that all ITF numbered affiliated schools have to follow. The extent to which all schools follow is varied, but many would concide that it is followed to a larger extent than the Kukkiwon schools do. They do have a system in place to help insure compliance, but it is far from perfect. I make no claim that one is better than the other, or that following a set syllabus is better than doing your own thing. However, I offer it to merely show that the ITF can be & often is referred to as a style of TKD. Now the proper style name would be Chang HonTK-D , the pen name of the founder.

So my overall point or bottom line would be, there is no style of WTF TKD, just a WTF sport. There is not set WTF training syllabus, other than the tournament rules. So to claim one is WTF on one hand & say they are not just a sport & to say one has WTF certification or follows their training syllabus, doesn't make sense to me. I thank the new poster with contributing a great 1st post & hope there is more to come!




I agree w/you. I think it is most correct to say that Kukkiwon is analogous to the ITF, in that the Kukkiwon and ITF are both martial arts organizations (as opposed to sports federations under the IOC) that govern the technical standards and curriculum for their particular "flavor" of TKD (Kukki TKD vs. Chang Hon TKD).

What's amusing is that many first generation Korean masters get this wrong. I see a lot of KKW TKD schools that advertise they "belong to the WTF" or are "WTF certified". FACT: Individuals and/or clubs cannot belong to the WTF, only national governing bodies. My KKW certificates say nothing about the WTF on it, other than than (at the time) Un Yong Kim was president of both organizations.

What also doesn't help is that the KKW and the WTF are housed in the building called... Kukkiwon!

To add to my previous post, you don't even need to necessarily practice Kukki TKD to compete in WTF events. Several members of the US national team got their start in NASKA, point-style tournaments/schools. There was even a US national team memeber several years back who apparently was from a Chang Hon/ITF club (as evidenced by their forms and doboks):

http://www.hanstkd.com/yung-han.php

WTF used to require that you had a Kukkiwon certified Dan to compete in their events, but I think at some point the IOC stepped in and said that an international sports federation could not require an athlete to possess credentials from a sports organization belonging to a particular nation. So since Kukkiwon is a Korean martial arts organization, the IOC said that WTF could not require their competitors to be certified through a Korean organization. In practice most competitors have KKW dans, but there are notable exceptions. I believe Arlene Limas (88 Seoul Olympics gold medalist from USA) came from a Jhoon Rhee system, and did not have a KKW dan, and fought get on the US Team without one.

In many other countries where TKD is developing as an Olympic sport, they don't even teach the full Kukki TKD curriculum, only what's required for WTF sparring rules. In the book I mentioned in my previous post, Master Dae Sung Lee tells about how he visited China to train the Chinese national team. He recounts how he found a TKD team that had recruited athletes from the wushu, basketball, and track teams only a few years before his visit. They knew no forms or self-defense principles and only knew sparring. Sadly, I think this is more common in many other nations where TKD is developing.


Edited by badachagi (02/07/08 11:27 PM)

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#315215 - 02/08/08 01:11 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Thank you for the kind words. However, this does not change the fact that I have limited knowledge about the WTF, KTA & Kukkiwon. Itis nice & I think even better if someone explains their set up, that does not have ITF in their screen name.

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#315216 - 02/08/08 01:13 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

WTF used to require that you had a Kukkiwon certified Dan to compete in their events, but I think at some point the IOC stepped in and said that an international sports federation could not require an athlete to possess credentials from a sports organization belonging to a particular nation. So since Kukkiwon is a Korean martial arts organization, the IOC said that WTF could not require their competitors to be certified through a Korean organization. In practice most competitors have KKW dans, but there are notable exceptions.




I did not know this. When did they rule on this?

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#315217 - 02/08/08 01:16 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

What's amusing is that many first generation Korean masters get this wrong. I see a lot of KKW TKD schools that advertise they "belong to the WTF" or are "WTF certified". FACT: Individuals and/or clubs cannot belong to the WTF, only national governing bodies. My KKW certificates say nothing about the WTF on it, other than than (at the time) Un Yong Kim was president of both organizations.




Yes that is very common place. Which I guess leads the students to believe the same, which probably contributes to the mistaken impression. JMHO

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#315218 - 02/08/08 03:44 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
The main ITF club in Olsztyn, a city in North Poland, had, at one time, 5 ITF world champions. They now also train "Olympic-style" and their fighters are considered for the Polish Olympic squad.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#315219 - 02/08/08 08:56 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

TKDX
I will attempt to give you the most accurate answer I can. I lack knowledge regarding ITF forms. I believe that there is a blending when it comes to forms. GM Kil is an excellent teacher, However when it comes to in depth discussion there is quite the communication gap even though he has been in the states for aprox. thirty years. No sine wave with us either. Are all your forms ITF or do you have a blending too?




When I started the HMK was doing the Pal Gwe forms and the new Tae Guek forms. There was no ITF recognition at all. I remember asking about Gen. Choi( I had the 1965 book and thought that everyone would know him) my instructor looked at me like I was crazy. so i don't think they had anything to do with the ITF.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#315220 - 02/08/08 09:05 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Badachagi

Your reply was very refreshing I wish I had your communication skills. I think I rubbed some of the long time posters the wrong way in my response to this matter. Few could have stated it better than you just did. I hovered on fighting arts too long and watched the discussion slowly tilt to the negative side regarding wtf sparing and came out far too aggressive in trying to communicate what it is about and how these comments are damaging the reputation of all of tae kwon do. I did not achieve my goal thanks for picking up the slack. Looking back I wished I would have started my own thread instead of responding to other peoples, just some advise to other opionionated newbie"s

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#315221 - 02/08/08 09:33 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I have to say this is all a little confusing. I just wanted to make a note and this may confuse things more. When black belt testing I had to do this for my school and it involved a fitness test that took an hour plus I had to do the required patterns, one-steps, sparring and breaking. After passing this I was considered a black belt however this was only recognized by "our" schools. A couple of weeks later I had to take another test that was put on by the "WTF Alliance of Alberta" that had schools from across Alberta come to one central location to be tested by a panel of high ranking black belts. Required of us were all of the same stuff without the fitness test portion. I have to admit the testing was far easier then our own. Now passing this test recognized me as a black belt and certification comes from Seoul Korea and takes 3 to 6 months; and sometimes longer.

What I'm trying show is that I had to be tested by the "WTF" in order to be recognized everywhere as a black belt. This leads me to believe that the WTF does have set requirements. When taking the test the patterns were all the same however the one-steps were not as some school had different ones then what we did however I understand this as our were created mostly by my Instructors South Korean Master.

So what gives?
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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