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#315242 - 02/09/08 03:07 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Dereck


I second badagachagi, the WTF does not issue dan certs.




For colored belts all certificates specify, "This certifies that ________________ has obtained the level of _____________ within the curriculum & guidelines of the Word Taekwondo Federation and the Taekwondo Alliance of Alberta"

Also are the logos of the (1) WTF Tae Kwon Do Associaton of Canada, (2) Alberta Tae Kwon Do Association and (3) The World Taekwondo Federation. These are not issued by our school and all testing results goes to the Alberta Tae Kwon Do Association and take anywhere from a week to two weeks before they are returned and you are awarded you new colored belt.

Now as far as Dan grading goes, I will advise as soon as that documentation arrives back from South Korea where it goes. I will then give you all of that information as that takes 3 to 6 months and it has been almost 3 months already.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315243 - 02/09/08 03:11 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Yes it sounds like you have given me an good explanation on how you do 1 steps. However, I see don't know what the purpose is. I also think that you describe a tough or hard use of techniques, which I think is good. But again, please tell me what the purpose of 1 steps are? Why do you do them? Thanks




1 steps are for self defense and to give you different techniques that are possibilities. They train you proper application of techniques learned in class from strikes to falling techniques to proper sweeping to proper distance and timing to reacting and recognizing movements to a whole other useful and practical uses.

Let me ask you, why do you do your 1,2 and 3 steps? Why do you do patterns?
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315244 - 02/09/08 03:17 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Dereck I second badagachagi, the WTF does not issue dan certs.




For colored belts all certificates specify, "This certifies that ________________ has obtained the level of _____________ within the curriculum & guidelines of the Word Taekwondo Federation and the Taekwondo Alliance of Alberta"
Also are the logos of the (1) WTF Tae Kwon Do Associaton of Canada, (2) Alberta Tae Kwon Do Association and (3) The World Taekwondo Federation. These are not issued by our school and all testing results goes to the Alberta Tae Kwon Do Association and take anywhere from a week to two weeks before they are returned and you are awarded you new colored belt.
Now as far as Dan grading goes, I will advise as soon as that documentation arrives back from South Korea where it goes. I will then give you all of that information as that takes 3 to 6 months and it has been almost 3 months already.




Yes it is clear that these certs are made up by some local group & that they have just used some incorrect terms or premise.

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#315245 - 02/09/08 03:42 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Let me ask you, why do you do your 1,2 and 3 steps? Why do you do patterns?




The quick & silly answer would be, "because they are in the syllabus". LOL

But seriously, our step sparring, 1, 2 & 3 are part of pre-arranged sparring. Pre-arranged in the sense, the format, number of attacks are pre-arranged. When this series has been introduced to the student, they move to semi-free sparring at 5th gup green belt. When they reach 4th gup blue belt, they start to learn free sparring. So it is a careful progression based on several uses, or purposes, which is the focus of your question. So here is the exact answer as to the purpose of our step sparring:
3 step: to teach DISTANCE
2 step: to acquire a MIX of hand & foot techniques
1 step: to SIMULATE real combat

Now what you describe seems to be a SD technique drill. However it also seems that it may not be the most effective SD training, as you describe an intitial attack for real, but then seem to indicate that is the only attack & the attacker then just "strikes a pose". In addition, you further describe that it appears the defender is allowed to use more than 1 counter attack against someone who is no longer an opponent, but a partner who is only posing. This IMHO may also help to create a false sense of security & actually be detremental from a SD standpoint.

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#315246 - 02/09/08 03:48 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Why do you do patterns?




Dereck:
I did not want to answer this, as it may confuse the current theme of the discussion. Patterns are done as they are an important part of our Art form. They are the founder's signature so to speak. It helps set our Art apart from others. Thay are a "critical barometer in evaluating an individual's technique". We gain many benefits from pattern practice, but the purpose is to basically afford an opportunity to practice fundamental movements linked together in a set sequence.

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#315247 - 02/09/08 04:11 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

Let me ask you, why do you do your 1,2 and 3 steps? Why do you do patterns?




The quick & silly answer would be, "because they are in the syllabus". LOL

But seriously, our step sparring, 1, 2 & 3 are part of pre-arranged sparring. Pre-arranged in the sense, the format, number of attacks are pre-arranged. When this series has been introduced to the student, they move to semi-free sparring at 5th gup green belt. When they reach 4th gup blue belt, they start to learn free sparring. So it is a careful progression based on several uses, or purposes, which is the focus of your question. So here is the exact answer as to the purpose of our step sparring:
3 step: to teach DISTANCE
2 step: to acquire a MIX of hand & foot techniques
1 step: to SIMULATE real combat

Now what you describe seems to be a SD technique drill. However it also seems that it may not be the most effective SD training, as you describe an intitial attack for real, but then seem to indicate that is the only attack & the attacker then just "strikes a pose". In addition, you further describe that it appears the defender is allowed to use more than 1 counter attack against someone who is no longer an opponent, but a partner who is only posing. This IMHO may also help to create a false sense of security & actually be detremental from a SD standpoint.




I'm finding it extremely hard to understand you ITF.

What you describe as 3 step and 2 step are similar to what is taught at our white belt levels so they understand as you explained and then at yellow belt free sparring is introduced and they do not have to wait till blue belt, which to me puts them a head in the game and by blue belt have an even greater understanding of sparring, distance, timing, understanding how to take a hit, etc.

Our one-steps are learned at each belt level so that they are worked on thoroughly and understood, however the more trained you are the better you will also understand this at higher belt levels. I see this no different then you explanation of your one-steps.

I've always enjoyed our conversations but I have to be honest, I'm miffed with you. To say they are not good training techniques for self defense makes me think who made you the authority on this? Are you narrow minded enough not to see their usefulness; much better then "any" pattern which I find to be a waste as there is no resistance. Also narrow minded to think that is the only means of self defense taught; it is one in many taught with most against resisting opponents. Our TKD along with the influences of BJJ and MMA only increase our self defense and I couldn't possibly list the number of techniques and applications used. I can assure you that there is no false sense of security when it comes to what is taught; the only flaws would be the people learning them and applying them and their own understanding of those techniques taught. Our one-steps are just as effective as yours and are only a very small part in the grand scheme of things.

No disrespect ITF but as of lately you have been coming off as a "know it all" and and "authority on everything" and that is the farthest from the truth. You are in the same category as the rest of us, people learning to become better at what ever we are striving for. We are all learning and we don't have all of the answers. No encyclopedia is going to answer all of the questions. Our training may be better then some but not as good as others. Certain people within those training curriculums may shine while others don't. We all have strengths and weaknesses.

I won't judge your training and make comments without actually standing there and learning in your shoes, I would expect the same from you and any others. I've said my peace.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315248 - 02/09/08 04:16 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Yes it is clear that these certs are made up by some local group & that they have just used some incorrect terms or premise.




Yes, the local group is called the Alberta Taekwondo Federation. As far as incorrect terms or premise I will leave that for the Federation to decide as they set those standards, not random people on forums. And no piece of paper will ever replace actual training.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

Top
#315249 - 02/09/08 06:11 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

Yes it is clear that these certs are made up by some local group & that they have just used some incorrect terms or premise.




Yes, the local group is called the Alberta Taekwondo Federation. As far as incorrect terms or premise I will leave that for the Federation to decide as they set those standards, not random people on forums. And no piece of paper will ever replace actual training.




I think what ITFUnity is trying to say is that your color belts certs are being issued by a local body, and neither WTF/Kukkiwon is responsible for those certs. The local body is simply putting "WTF" and the logo on the certs. As I've said repeatedly, WTF does not provide certifications for rank, only for officating competitions (i.e. referees). Furtherore, Kukkiwon issues dan certificates only -- not color belt certs.

I'm not saying that what this organization is doing is wrong or that they are selling false credentials. They perpetuating the same misunderstanding that many well-intentioned and well-meaning schools and instructors are. It is very common to encounter schools that, because they teach the Tae Geuk patterns and practice WTF rules sparring, think that this means that they are "WTF members" or "WTF certified". This is a very common MISTAKE. What they really should be saying is that they practice the Kukkiwon curriculum and have Kukkiwon certified instructors. Your local WTF Association is probably a local body of schools which practice the KKW curriculum and have decided to set a common set of promotion standards for color belts (since KKW does not provide standards for color belt promotion). They, like many others, don't understand the difference between KKW and WTF, and have claimed they are issuing WTF certifications, or that they are WTF members, or whatever. None of this is true, but I doubt very seriously that they are intentionally misleading people. My own grandmaster says our school is WTF member, though I know that he's not quite mistaken and I know what he really means.

Go check the WTF website... you will see that the only entities that are members are National Governing Bodies, not individual schools or instructors. Call up WTF offices and ask them about Dan certifications. I guarantee you they will tell you to contact Kukkiwon.

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#315250 - 02/10/08 12:49 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Yes, the local group is called the Alberta Taekwondo Federation. As far as incorrect terms or premise I will leave that for the Federation to decide as they set those standards, not random people on forums. And no piece of paper will ever replace actual training.




Dereck Sir, please understand my post what not meant as a slight in any way, shape or form. I put very little value on a piece of paper. I think what is more important is that you trust the person you train with & feel proud when they say you are ready for your next step, whether it be a new belt, new gup or just a new technique or move that you are taught. I think I would have been happy if my teacher wrote out my cert on the inside of a matchbook cover. It didn't matter to me. I only learned later from my teacher, the value of having a cert signed by the founder, Gen Choi. I didn't know who he was when I joined & I only joined my school because my buddy went there.
The points I was trying to make were that the WTF does not have a curriculmn, outside of sport rules & they do not issue certs to BBs or color belts. Badachagi states it much better than I could, as I am not a KKW student or WTF player. Rest assurred that the common mistake he highlights I also made for years. I was corrected by a poster on taekwondo.net forum, that is now pretty slow, called jidokwantkd, or something like. When I saw those posts, I checked it out & verified I was wrong. I was thankful for being corrected. I am sorry that I upset you. It truly was not my intention.

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#315251 - 02/10/08 01:23 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I've always enjoyed our conversations but I have to be honest, I'm miffed with you. To say they are not good training techniques for self defense makes me think who made you the authority on this? Are you narrow minded enough not to see their usefulness; much better then "any" pattern which I find to be a waste as there is no resistance. Also narrow minded to think that is the only means of self defense taught;




I have apologized above & do it again. I have also sent a PM
with my sincere regrets that I came off that way. I can say with 100% conviction, that this was not my intention, nor is it my style. I also do not consider myself narrow minded at all. I do consider myself someone who is very limited in knowledge outside of my style of TKD.


Quote:

No disrespect ITF but as of lately you have been coming off as a "know it all" and and "authority on everything" and that is the farthest from the truth. You are in the same category as the rest of us, people learning to become better at what ever we are striving for. We are all learning and we don't have all of the answers. No encyclopedia is going to answer all of the questions. Our training may be better then some but not as good as others. Certain people within those training curriculums may shine while others don't. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I won't judge your training and make comments without actually standing there and learning in your shoes, I would expect the same from you and any others. I've said my peace.




You are 100% right. I am not a know it all! Nor do I claim to be an authority. I am simply a student who has spent my entire adult life & a bit more, some 30+ years spanning 4 decades, on diligent study on JUST 1 style of TKD, Chang Hon. That pursuit has taken me to some 30+ countries. I have little exposure to other styles & have learned via forums like this. I am sorry & will try to explain better what i was getting at.

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