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#315222 - 02/08/08 10:49 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I have to say this is all a little confusing.
I have to admit the testing was far easier then our own. Now passing this test recognized me as a black belt and certification comes from Seoul Korea and takes 3 to 6 months;
What I'm trying show is that I had to be tested by the "WTF" in order to be recognized everywhere as a black belt. This leads me to believe that the WTF does have set requirements. So what gives?




Dereck, Sir, I am not sure what gives. I will attempt to give you my insight. I suggest that you speak to your instructor & clarify things.
First TKD to some is just like a generic umbrella term to define a KMA (striking). It goes back to their hated brutual occupation the suffered under the Japanese. When that ended after WWII, a movement to reinstill Korean culture & pride took place. One of the things that took place was a new name TKD was offered, by General Choi. Some took the name & did the TKD he taught. Some took the name & did what they were previoulsy doing, karate & others did not take the name & others took it later on. The ITF always had somewhat of a required syllabus. When the WTF was later formed, since it was a sports organization, they only thing that they governed was the tournament rules. So it was plain to see that their schools did whatever techniques they did before, other than the tournament rules & continued this. So we can see that there is little standardization of technique in TKD.
If you have a cert coming from SK, it may be from the Kukkiwon & that would be nice. It may also be coming from some other organization that is there as well, but then chances are it would not be the official semi-govt one of the Kukkiwon. Now from what I understand, the Kukkiwon application for BB cert must have some signatures on it that are authorized by the Kukkiwon. Maybe someone else can clarify that. That may explain why there was a seperate 2nd test.
There is confusion out there. But rest assurred there are 3 basics ways to look at it, you are doing Korean Karate TKD, Kukki TKD, or Chang Hon TKD. What adds to the confusion is the political bickering that led people to think, they are not ITF, as they are not following the founder, so they must be WTF, the largest governing body in the world. In addition many wear the popular V neck DoBoks that are associated with the WTF, many even coming with WT logos on it. School also hang WTF flags that are sold in many MA outlets. It is next to impossible to find an ITF flag, unless you make your own or know another member that did. The WTF plaques are sold in most MA outlet. The ITF serial numbered ones are only available through ITF headquarters after paying the annual dues. There are additional examples of this as well, but I think the point is made. Finally, not many people know when the ITF has a WC, unless they are current ITF. very few watch it & less identify with it, because of the different rules. However, the WTF WCs gets a lot of attention & even if your school is not involved, you may identify with it, as the fighting rules are the same as what you do. Same for the Olympics. So it is a perception problem, that hopefully forums like this can help clear up.

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#315223 - 02/08/08 10:52 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

When taking the test the patterns were all the same however the one-steps were not as some school had different ones then what we did however I understand this as our were created mostly by my Instructors South Korean Master.



Dereck:
Why Sir should 1 steps be the same?

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#315224 - 02/08/08 11:05 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
ITFunity, our WTF flag comes directly from the WTF in Korea and was brought back by one of our students upon his visit there. This replaced our original one that also came directly from the WTF in Korea however the newer one represented their newer look and why it was changed out; no replicas here from any martial arts store.

Certificate comes directly from Korea where you are registered as well a card will be returned which looks like a driver's license with your name on it. There is a place on line that I had found before that showed those registered but I can no longer find it as it has been a number of years. At the time I looked on it there were people that I recognized from my school and others that were registered.

I will most certainly discuss this further with my Instructor. Remember, we don't get hung up on politics and never discuss the inner workings and stuff like other schools and this made lead to further misunderstanding of how things are however I can assure you that it was the WTF TKD Alliance of Alberta that oversees the testing.

As for one-steps, I wasn't saying they should be the same but at standardization would be a good idea, you can at least agree with that coming from an ITF school.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315225 - 02/08/08 11:29 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I hovered on fighting arts too long and watched the discussion slowly tilt to the negative side regarding wtf sparing and came out far too aggressive in trying to communicate what it is about and how these comments are damaging the reputation of all of tae kwon do.




Dereck:
I think I understand what you are saying. I would not say it is only limited to "WTF sparring". All TKD has suffered. IMHO the poor reputation is deserved to an extent & has more to do with than just some places emphasizing an Olympic sport.

What every one should realize & understand, is that no Country ever exported thousands of its people abroad to teach a MA. Remember, SK was a poor, developing Country tangled in a brutual military dictatorship, still in a technical perpetual state of war with NK. When these immigrants set up schools, they not only made an income from them, but in many cases for family members still back home. In the 60s & 70s these schools, as most MA schools, were hard core. The goal was to learn tough SD. No pain, no gain was the motto. Blood & sweat, along with black eyes & other injuries were common place. Over time these things changed. Seminars on how to make money started to appear, along with chain schools of the MAs. Insurance regulations softened things. The Karate Kid & Ninja Turtles movies invited in kids & the money they brought in with them. Parents didn't want the blood & sweat, but rather the Mr. Miyagi respect effect. Schools eventually started to fill voids with the latch key kids, as either both parents were working or the kids were being raised by single moms. What better way to have your kids learn discipline than in a MAs program, they thought. Now we have schools that have vans that pick them up, feed them, help them with their homework, give them a physical activity to do, till they get picked up by the working parent(s). It is a good deal for all, except the reputation of the MAs as a SD training mechanism.

Getting back to SK & this is not a knock on a Nation, but what other Countries have colleges dedicated to TKD? Now why does someone go to college? I suggest to get an education in order to get a job. IMHO a job is to allow you to earn an income. The MAs & money don't mix well. The best MA schools I have encountered, were run by MAists that loved the MAs & wanted to teach it. The worst MA schools I have encountered, are full time schools, were the instructor depends on the income to live. I know there are exceptions to every rule, but it has not been my overall experience.

These young SK masters who graduate & then go teach, do have somewhat of a standard curriculmn they learned in college. I think that there is some attention to the sparring rules & this does spill over into their teaching. In SK, many have told me that TKD is looked at as a sport. A recent TV program also implied that. Some of these young college graduated masters have told me, they never knew about General Choi & they though the ITF was communist TKD from NK. General Choi was blacklisted in SK, labeled a communist & traitor. Many do not know it was SK former military that introduced TKD to NK, along with a Brit, a SK Minister, Americans, Canadaian, Greek & a Croatian from the former Yugoslavia.

The internet is changing a lot of this. IMHO I think it is a good idea to educate people about the roots & history of TKD's development as a feared military fighting system, documented by written communist Viet Cong orders/edict, long before the Kukkiwon or WTF was even a thought, if we hope to raise its repuation as weak on SD.

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#315226 - 02/08/08 11:41 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFunity, our WTF flag comes directly from the WTF in Korea and was brought back by one of our students upon his visit there.




How did the student get it? Did they buy it in the Kukkiwon building? Did they have to show documentation that they were a member of an WTF NGB, as individuals can not be members of the WTF, only nations can be. Did they buy it at the authorized TKD stores in the area or at the TKD museium there?

I think you are missing my point. I am not talking about buying an official trademark flag made under copyright protections vs a bootleg knock off counterfit one. WTF flags are easy to come by, just like soccer jerseys, official ones & knock offs as well. ITF flags are very hard to come by & one probably would not hang one in their school, unless they were ITF. Ycan be both an individual member of the ITF, as well as a registered school.

So the fact that one has or hangs a WTF flag in their school, regardless of its sourse, is not a good indicator of its official status with the WTF or its member nations.

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#315227 - 02/08/08 11:50 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

As for one-steps, I wasn't saying they should be the same but at standardization would be a good idea, you can at least agree with that coming from an ITF school.




No way, no how, never!
The ITF 1 steps are not standardized. The way they start is. For example, both attacker & defender stand i/f/o each other, in a pararell ready stance, at a distance pre-determined by the attacker, depending on the attack to be used. The attack is done from this position, without going back into a walking stance with low block & attacks with any & all attacks are allowed, not just a punch with the right forefist. You can only do 1 attack & 1 counterattack. There are examples of this in the Encylopedia, but they are just that. Our 1 steps are a SD drill, where the attacker must try to hit the defender, with all available attacks. In the case of all step sparring, 1, 2 & 3 steps, as a student advances, the attacks should be more spontaneous & realistic.

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#315228 - 02/08/08 12:00 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Dereck,

It sounds like your certifications are all from the Kukkiwon, NOT WTF. Look at your certifications and see if you can find anything that says "World Taekwondo Federation" on them. They should all read "Kukkiwon". If they do say WTF on them, then I'm not sure what to tell you, as the WTF DOES NOT issue dan certificates. If you don't believe me, you can Google both the WTF and KKW websites and see if there's anything about dan certifications or TKD curriculum on the WTF site. In fact, the KKW website actually allows you to check Dan registrations online. You just type in someone's name, nationality, and birthday, and it spits out the person's KKW dan number.

I have heard of some schools claiming to be "WTF members" and they place the WTF logo prominently on their own school certificates, but frankly this means nothing. It means you have a school certificate with the WTF logo on it. KKW will not recognize this. I hope this is not your situation.

The problem is that many schools, instructors, and even first gen. Korean masters get this wrong. Even my own. I don't think the WTF and KKW has done enough to clear up this misconception. So many schools, even those run by Koreans, advertise that they are WTF members, WTF certified, or affiliated w/the WTF. Only NGBs can be affiliated or members of the WTF, only referees and other officials can be certified by the WTF. If a school says it has any associated with the WTF, what it probably means is that they are KKW certified, and that they compete in WTF-rules competitions.

By the way, when you see a uniform or sparring gear with the WTF approved logo on it, it means that the WTF approved it for competition use.

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#315229 - 02/08/08 12:08 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

WTF used to require that you had a Kukkiwon certified Dan to compete in their events, but I think at some point the IOC stepped in and said that an international sports federation could not require an athlete to possess credentials from a sports organization belonging to a particular nation. So since Kukkiwon is a Korean martial arts organization, the IOC said that WTF could not require their competitors to be certified through a Korean organization. In practice most competitors have KKW dans, but there are notable exceptions.




I did not know this. When did they rule on this?





I'm not sure exactly when this happened, nor would I be able to provide you the details. And in fact, I think the WTF doesn't publicize this fact because they still want people to get certified through the KKW for WTF competitions, even if they are no longer allowed to impose the requirement upon players due to the IOC ruling. This way, most people will go on thinking that they need KKW certifications to compete. But then if someone raises an issue about this to the IOC, they can truthfully say that their rules don't mandate someone be KKW certified.

This is likely the case because of the long-standing relationship between the KKW and WTF. And also because publicly acklowedging that you don't need KKW certification opens up a whole can of worms that I don't think the WTF wants to face. For example, that means Chang Hon TKD practitioners can (and do) enter WTF competitions. It even means that you don't, strictly speaking, need to be any kind of TKD black belt. Theoretically, you could be a blue belt in Shotokan Karate, who is very athletic and was able to adapt your kicks to WTF rules and competition, progress through your country's team selection process, and make it onto your country's team, all without even knowing actual TKD!

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#315230 - 02/08/08 12:21 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes I see your point! I wonder how this will effect any merger talks?

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#315231 - 02/08/08 01:10 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Yes I see your point! I wonder how this will effect any merger talks?




I haven't followed the merger talks very carefully, so I may be speaking out of ignorance. But it seems to me that, given the differences between KKW and WTF that I outlined in previous posts, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for ITF and WTF to merge. This is simply because the two organizations have different scope -- one (the WTF) is an international sports federation that exists for the purposes of regulating TKD competition, the other (ITF) is MA organization that establishes standards and curriculum.

I think it would make more sense for the *Kukkiwon* and ITF to be in talks for merger, as those are the two analogous organizations for their particular style of TKD.

This is just my personal speculation, but I don't think the WTF has a whole lot to gain by "merging" with ITF, at least in regards to its status as the world governing body for sport TKD competition. It's already acheived all of that w/out the ITF.

If anything, I would think that merger talks would be more about bringing WTF and ITF sparring competition rules to be more in sync so as to officially open up the possibility of more ITF players competing in WTF competitions. Also, the politics of the art are very much wrapped up in the politices of NK and SK, so perhaps these merger talks are really a way for both countries, on a very vey small level, bto begin to work collaboratively on a common goal.

My personal thoughts: As a Korean-born American, I would love to see NK and SK reunification. While I am a KKW TKD practitioner for 20+ years, and I love sport TKD competition, I have much respect for Chang Hon practitioners, and I have even learned several of the ITF forms. I think the ITF forms are actually pretty cool looking, but I'll be honest and say I'm not such a big fan of the sine-wave thing. Assuming the rules can be worked out to be agreeable to both organizations, I think having large masses of ITF fighters in WTF competitions can only improve the quality of TKD competition fighting. Perhaps an ITF/WTF merger could be seen as similar to other famous league mergers in sports histor (AFL/NFL, NBA/ABA, UFC/Pride).


Edited by badachagi (02/08/08 01:14 PM)

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