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#315262 - 02/11/08 04:02 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
ITF, I understand what you are saying and I feel that I don't need to try something separately when I think it is already being addressed in our overall training. We may not have one person attack and the other defend with "one" technique as you have described your one-steps are however there are many other things in our training that would prove as useful as this training method. However I feel that only attacking with "one" technique is limiting and if the only way trained can be detrimental.

I understand your reasoning to want to stay in the context of the one-steps for this discussion however I think we cannot as we are not comparing apples to apples as our training and ideology is different.

I feel in a way, and please forgive me if this is not true, but that you are trying to convey that your system is a better way of doing things and I don't see that as the case. I would however say that each has valid reasons however both are flawed if they are the only methods taught and that they both must be only a small part of a much larger training regiment.

As you have said, I challenge you keep an open mindedness and perhaps give these a try; and perhaps then you will see my point.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315263 - 02/11/08 04:06 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Question ITF, do you have anything within your system that teaches multiple attacks? Shows combinations of what can be used? Think of it this way, boxers (and we do this too) work on heavy bags, focus mitts and also with others in sparring working on combinations (jabs, power, uppercuts, hooks, etc.) however in application they don't always work but it gives you an incite to what "could" happen and the more you do it the more it becomes ingrained to try multiple attacks. That way when you are throwing punches you don't get stuck with just one punch as one punch doesn't win a fight, many punches coming from different angles with many with explosion and commitment.

Just trying to understand you better.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315264 - 02/12/08 12:01 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITF, I understand what you are saying and I feel that I don't need to try something separately when I think it is already being addressed in our overall training.




Well Sir, I see that since I can not get you try something, I can not pursue this further. You had said previoulsy that I was being narrow minded. I truly was not. What I was trying to do was just to get you too be open to trying something. Apparently you will not & that is fine. To each there own.

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#315265 - 02/12/08 12:08 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I feel that only attacking with "one" technique is limiting and if the only way trained can be detrimental.




I agree, but just to make sure you understand, attacking with 1 technique is what 1 step sparring is. The founder limits all step sparring to 1 counter attack, as in a real situation, no one will stand still & pose, while their opponent, the one they are attacking goes to town on them. The limit to the 1 counter, helps to insure the defender picks an approriate attacking tool to the correct vital spot. That is the purpose of 1 step sparring. It starts at the ground & works its way up. This is not a combo building drill. It is a protect & counter drill, so to speak. There are of course numerous other drills we use that will build on this in a realistic way.

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#315266 - 02/12/08 12:17 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I feel in a way, and please forgive me if this is not true, but that you are trying to convey that your system is a better way of doing things and I don't see that as the case. I would however say that each has valid reasons however both are flawed if they are the only methods taught and that they both must be only a small part of a much larger training regiment.

As you have said, I challenge you keep an open mindedness and perhaps give these a try; and perhaps then you will see my point.




Dereck:
Sir I have stated before & will again, there is no such desire on my part. I love these exchanges & really do love sharing in this way. I am always appreciative of how much I have learned from others.
I gave up long ago thinking my way was the best way. In fact, it was my exposue & training with the founder that helped me to realize how much I did not know & how much more I have to learn. The more I travel, the more I see how much more I have to learn. BTW, yes I have tried doing 1 steps the way you describe. In fact I did them for 14 years that way.

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#315267 - 02/12/08 12:28 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Question ITF, do you have anything within your system that teaches multiple attacks? Shows combinations of what can be used? Think of it this way, boxers (and we do this too) work on heavy bags, focus mitts and also with others in sparring working on combinations (jabs, power, uppercuts, hooks, etc.) however in application they don't always work but it gives you an incite to what "could" happen and the more you do it the more it becomes ingrained to try multiple attacks. That way when you are throwing punches you don't get stuck with just one punch as one punch doesn't win a fight, many punches coming from different angles with many with explosion and commitment.
Just trying to understand you better.




Yes of course we do. I have stated that repeatedly, but it seems to be lost as you do not want to stick with the narrow area that I was trying to discuss. We do that which you laid out above. We also do 3, 2, 1 steps, semi-free sparring, free sparring, HooSinSul, model sparring, foot technique sparring & pre-arranged free sparring in addition to drilling numerous permutations of our 3,200+ fundamental movements in all types of settings. But this is not the point & only confuses the point. JMHO

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#315268 - 02/12/08 12:46 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

.......however in application they don't always work but it gives you an incite to what "could" happen and the more you do it the more it becomes ingrained to try multiple attacks. That way when you are throwing punches you don't get stuck with just one punch as one punch doesn't win a fight, many punches coming from different angles with many with explosion and commitment.




Of course I see your point. But that is not the purpose of our 1 step sparring. The goal is to simulate combat with a live attack, using any available technique. It helps the defender to protect & make an effective counter-attack, not counter-attackS, as the real life attacker will not stand still after the 1st attack & pose for you. Now I acknowledge that it IS NOT an effective tool for building or learning combos. It can also have the effect that you state, which the defender may get it ingrained to only counter once. You however, will not acknowledge that having a defender use mutiple counters against an opponent who is no longer live, may also ingrain a false sense of security as well.

This is why the founder said 3 steps, 2 steps & 1 steps, are for beginners & come before semi-free & free sparring, as they move to an intermediate color belt level. This helps to insure bad habits are minimized & students learn the concepts that each level must absorb, while other technique development is under way. But again, this clouds the issue. I am only talking about 1 aspect of 1 step sparring.


I am bowing out respectfully, unless others want to chime in or I successful in finally getting my point across.

No one else has responded in awhile, so I am afraid we put them to
LOL

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#315269 - 02/12/08 07:55 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Actually no, I have just been enjoying the exchanges and had nothing additional to add. You two seem to have covered any point I would be trying to make from both sides.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#315270 - 02/12/08 09:55 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: RazorFoot]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I also enjoy the exchange ITF. Now I understand that the ITF curriculum and those that train under it have a lot of faith in the founder and his teachings, however understand that many other schools do not take this approach and my school would be one of them. We have never discussed history or politics and train with application only. Remember, much of what I train comes from TKD/Hapkido which was from my Instructor's Master; plus my TKD has influences from BJJ and MMA and the techniques are tried and true.

Quote:

The founder limits all step sparring to 1 counter attack, as in a real situation, no one will stand still & pose, while their opponent, the one they are attacking goes to town on them. The limit to the 1 counter, helps to insure the defender picks an approriate attacking tool to the correct vital spot. That is the purpose of 1 step sparring. It starts at the ground & works its way up. This is not a combo building drill. It is a protect & counter drill, so to speak. There are of course numerous other drills we use that will build on this in a realistic way.




We are not limited by the founder as you yourself are. I certainly can respect your point of view however if we take this to a realistic look, the one counter in my mind holds no value; please let me explain.

From my own sorted past of fighting when younger and into my young adult hood; even to MMA, one counter never happens. When somebody becomes the aggressor and attacks you it is usually in a barrage of multiple techniques ... whether it looks pretty or not, if trained or not. What realistically happen is most people succumb to that and are victims and then get beat down, robbed, raped, etc. You have to take that control away from the assailant and that is becoming the attacker. You "cannot" stop at one counter but have to take it to them to change the momentum and to take them off guard. This requires multiple techniques and your own barrage. You should never stop at one as that doesn't change the momentum, that still makes you a victim.

It is possible to get off more then one technique, and again for our one-steps after being punched with in a second I will have thrown multiple attacks that "are" possible.

I think that you are getting hung up on that you are able to do one counter to a vital spot and end things and that unfortunately is not realistic; it can work but more then likely it won't and why multiple attacks is far better. And again, your purpose as set by your founder for your one-steps is not the same as our purpose for our one-steps, and that is where I think the confusion is coming from and again we are not comparing apples to apples.

Again, enjoy this discussion.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315271 - 02/12/08 10:08 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I also enjoy the exchange ITF. Now I understand that the ITF curriculum and those that train under it have a lot of faith in the founder and his teachings, however understand that many other schools do not take this approach and my school would be one of them. We have never discussed history or politics and train with application only. Remember, much of what I train comes from TKD/Hapkido which was from my Instructor's Master; plus my TKD has influences from BJJ and MMA and the techniques are tried and true.

Quote:

The founder limits all step sparring to 1 counter attack, as in a real situation, no one will stand still & pose, while their opponent, the one they are attacking goes to town on them. The limit to the 1 counter, helps to insure the defender picks an approriate attacking tool to the correct vital spot. That is the purpose of 1 step sparring. It starts at the ground & works its way up. This is not a combo building drill. It is a protect & counter drill, so to speak. There are of course numerous other drills we use that will build on this in a realistic way.




We are not limited by the founder as you yourself are. I certainly can respect your point of view however if we take this to a realistic look, the one counter in my mind holds no value; ,,,,,,,




This is not only confusing the issue, but not at all. You still refuse to respond to my 1 narrow aspect that I wish you to address. I guess that says something. I can't figure out why you won't reply. Vert frustrating to say the least.

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