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#315202 - 02/05/08 06:55 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: michaelboik]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Isn't Han Moo Kwan was ITF-based? I do Han Moo Kwan style taekwondo under the Pan American Tae Kwon Do Federation (Grandmaster Won keun Bai is the president and founder). We do ITF forms without sine wave.
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#315203 - 02/05/08 10:26 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: michaelboik]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
michaelboik
Yes you are correct GM Kil is a sm. powerful man and he does provide a lot of self defence training to many organizations. Nice to here from someone that is familiar with Han Moo Kwan federation, many people have not herd of it, nice to here from you!

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#315204 - 02/05/08 10:42 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TKD_X]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
TKDX
I will attempt to give you the most accurate answer I can. I lack knowledge regarding ITF forms. I believe that there is a blending when it comes to forms. GM Kil is an excellent teacher, However when it comes to in depth discussion there is quite the communication gap even though he has been in the states for aprox. thirty years. No sine wave with us either. Are all your forms ITF or do you have a blending too?

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#315205 - 02/06/08 12:39 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Von1:

Please explain what it means to you, to be WTF or train WTF?
Thanks

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#315206 - 02/06/08 11:27 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
we are only ITF forms. i believe GM Bai knows the WTF forms,but he doesn't teach them in his curriculum.
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#315207 - 02/07/08 12:44 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

we are only ITF forms. i believe GM Bai knows the WTF forms,but he doesn't teach them in his curriculum.




But what do you mean by WTF or to train WTF?

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#315208 - 02/07/08 12:48 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY

When I refer to train WTF I am referring to that part of my training regarding sparing and WTF sparing rules. On other postings I have stated that most participants of WTF sparing only use sparing to work on our kicking skills which is the most difficult part of taekwondo to master. The rules aid this because you can effectly train to kick with out a fist in your face. The general thinking is that punching/hand techniques are more instinctual a natural, easier to master. We incorporate training methods with the hands( and yes they are up for guarding and ready to strike) designed to put it all together for realistic application our sparing is only a tool. I don"t know a single WTF person that would defend the same way they spar. This is why I am confused as to why people make fun of olympic competitors and think these people would not know how to defend them selves.

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#315209 - 02/07/08 01:25 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
ITFunity, I'm not sure where you are going with this? All of our testing is required by the WTF that includes sparring, breaking, patterns, etc. The WTF is not just the sparring rules, or not as it has been explained to me. My testing certificates all show the WTF Taekwondo Alliance of Alberta, the WTF Canada Taekwondo Federation and also the WTF itself. Certificates after testing usually take 1 to 2 weeks and with my black belt as it come from Korean, may take 3 to 6 months and am still waiting for it.

Perhaps for myself and von1 you could explain what you are looking for and we may be better equipped to answer.
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#315210 - 02/07/08 05:44 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
This point has probably been made in other posts, but it is worth repeating anyway.

The Kukkiwon is a Korean organization that establishes the technical standards for the MARTIAL ART of Taekwondo. The Kukkiwon is concerned with promotion standards, dan/instructor certifications, and TKD curriculum via the Kukkiwon textbook. The style of TKD promoted by the Kukkiwon is often called "Kukki Taekwondo".

The WTF is an international sports federation that exists to govern the Olympic sport of Taekwondo gyoroogi (sparring). Most of its activities revolve around certifying officials (i.e. referees), establishing rules, holding and promoting events for said sport.

The style of TKD promoted by Kukkiwon is often called "Kukki Taekwondo". So then, the Kukkiwon is a MARTIAL ARTS organization promoting the MARTIAL ART of Kukki Taekwondo, while the WTF is a SPORTS organization that promotes the SPORT of Kukki Taekwondo sparring.

The WTF does not give out Dan certificates, invent forms, or provide testing standards. The Kukkiwon does not make up rules for Olympic sparring, certify refereees, or decide where the next World Championships will be held.

If there is such a thing as "WTF Taekwondo", then the most accurate definition would be that "WTF Taekwondo" is the sport of TKD sparring as governed by WTF rules. Therefore, WTF TKD is that sport that is concerned primarily with kicking where you wear all those pads and "never use your hands." ;-)

On the other hand, Kukki Taekwondo is the martial art comprised of kicking/punching, forms, breaking, sparring, and self-defense principles. Just look at the Tae Geuk and Pal Gwe forms and you'll easily see they are about 90% hand techniques (some of the Dan level forms have NO kicking), including punches, uppercuts, backfists, fingertip strikes, hammer fists, throat strikes, and elbows. Go to a reputable Kukki TKD school, and they will require mastery of hand and foot techniques, breaking, sparring, one-steps, and philosophy/history.

The confusions between Kukki TKD and "WTF TKD" or "Olympic TKD" is that the Kukkiwon and WTF occupy the same building, and at one time the same person was the president of both. Additionally, in America, you have schools that say they practice "WTF TKD" or "Olympic TKD", when they really mean "Kukki TKD". Of course, there are also those schools who say they practice Olympic/WTF TKD, and they are actually correct because they cater exclusively to competition and athletes (i.e. a lot of schools that call themselves "sport TKD"), and forego the full Kukkiwon curriculum.

I second von1's comments regarding self-defense. Sport/WTF/Olympic TKD by definition is a sport, and thus the very limitations imposed on it for competition would render it less effective for SD than a full-blown martial art. On the other hand, Kukki TKD provides many techniques which would be applicable to SD situations. A TKD practitioner who is versed in the full spectrum of techniques available in Kukki TKD would have many weapons available to them, and it's absurd to assume that such an individual would just bounce around and try to take out a mugger with jump spinning hook kicks to the head.

_Taekwondo: State of the Art_ by Masters Sung Chul Whang, Jun Chul Whang, and Dae Sung Lee have a good treatment on the topic of the relevency of sparring to self-defense. Without reprinting their entire argument, a well-trained TKD athlete will have developed very fast movements, powerful strikes, effective footwork, a good sense of distance/timing, and will know how to take a hit and keep fighting. Now, give that same athlete more targets than just the head and body (knees, throat, eyes, groin, etc), and more weapons (punches, elbows, knees, etc), and I'd say that the athlete will probably do a lot more damage than someone that just sits around doing forms or one-steps all day.

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#315211 - 02/07/08 06:17 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Nicely written. Because of this I will say we are Taekwondo and just Taekwondo and we are "affiliated" with the WTF and have banner/flag on our wall and their name on our certificates. We are not sports orientated.
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