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#315162 - 01/15/07 12:11 PM Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
I see many posts on ITF TKD but very few WTF TKD. I would like to know who traines in WTF and may be we can start a few posts of our own.

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#315163 - 01/15/07 01:38 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: BulldogTKD]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Ha! Should've been here about 6-8 months ago. The reverse was true. There are plenty of WTF TKD people on here. Most of them haven't posted recently because the big topics have been related to the ITF (at least that is what I assume).

Do you practice WTF? Or are you thinking about starting WTF TKD?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#315164 - 01/15/07 02:00 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: BulldogTKD]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I train in a modified TKD system that incorporates everything from stand up to ground 'n pound, but our testing is strickly WTF TKD.

I always try to think of TKD as a whole and not divisionalized. Yes there are differences but there are also a lot more similarities.

Anything in particular you want to discuss?
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315165 - 01/15/07 02:07 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I used to train WTF about 3-4 years ago.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#315166 - 01/15/07 05:02 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: BulldogTKD]
sarang Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Belgium
I train in WTF TKD, traditional method.

We're not so few
_________________________
"Whole life is devoted to Taekwon-Do" Gen. Choi Hong-Hi

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#315167 - 01/15/07 05:35 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: BulldogTKD]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I do WTF on wednesdays, if that counts. Met the Polish national coach tonight while waiting to do capoeira.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#315168 - 01/15/07 07:51 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: trevek]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
I train in WTF. I post here when I have something to say, it has little to do with ITF related posts. I'm just tired of the forms, history, and politics threads.

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#315169 - 01/15/07 08:27 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Mr_Heretik]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

I'm just tired of the forms, history, and politics threads.




The same kinds of threads go round and round on the TKD forum. It's because of all the controversy regarding history and politics that I rarely post here.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#315170 - 01/15/07 09:14 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Prizewriter]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:

Ha! Should've been here about 6-8 months ago. The reverse was true. There are plenty of WTF TKD people on here. Most of them haven't posted recently because the big topics have been related to the ITF (at least that is what I assume).

Do you practice WTF? Or are you thinking about starting WTF TKD?




I trained in WTF Taekwondo many years ago and before that it was Karate. I have a Black Belt in another style of Taekwondo and taught that style for a few years but was away for awhile. Now I am back to WTF Taekwondo as I have acquired a small class quite by accident and am teaching the WTF patterns, both the Palgwae and the Taegeuk. I am also incorporating some Hapkido and ground fighting in my class.

I understand about all the politics on these forums and I mostly post when I have time since I am a one finger typest. I also was getting enough of the ITF mega History lesson and the debates over a title.

The reason why I ask is because I would like to discuss patterns, application of technique, one steps the pros and cons or anything related to Taekwondo but from the WTF perspective. Weather it is sport, or more traditional but leaving out all the BS! Lets chat about topics without getting in a pissing match. Just like we would visit like we are all sitting across the dinner table and discussing how a low block is preformed and is this really only a low block or a strike.

Well just a thought. I am just tired of the same old conversations and debates.

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#315171 - 01/16/07 02:47 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: BulldogTKD]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


The reason why I ask is because I would like to discuss patterns, application of technique, one steps the pros and cons or anything related to Taekwondo but from the WTF perspective. Weather it is sport, or more traditional but leaving out all the BS! Lets chat about topics without getting in a pissing match. Just like we would visit like we are all sitting across the dinner table and discussing how a low block is preformed and is this really only a low block or a strike.





Ask away then

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#315172 - 01/16/07 04:51 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: BulldogTKD]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Fair enough!

Well, this may interest youu slightly. I hope it doesn't break forum rules (if I do so mods, it is purely accidental) but I would like to recommend a book to you. Its by Iain Abernethy, a major expert in karate Bunkai. Its called "Throws for strikers". It is about how karate, TKD and kickboxing exponents can use throws within their arts. It shows throws that people in these arts should be able to do easily by using movements found in their arts.

He also mentions several TKD patterns that contain different throws in them. If you like form application, he is a great guy to learn from.

Although he is often labelled a "Wado Ryu" guy, he actually teaches a lot of application stuff to TKD practioners as well.

Should check some of his stuff out. Or better yet, go to a seminar of his.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#315173 - 01/16/07 08:51 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: BulldogTKD]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
Quote:

I see many posts on ITF TKD but very few WTF TKD. I would like to know who traines in WTF and may be we can start a few posts of our own.



Our school primarily does WTF and uses WTF sparring (and I think WTF forms).

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#315174 - 01/16/07 09:40 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Umbra_777]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Dido on what Heretik and Leo said. This is the first time I postr on this forum this year, I stopped posting here mid December. I am glad to see we have at least a small WTF group.

I practice Olympic style TKD but I have never EVER paid a WTF fee in my life and I don't plan to. Because I was an assistant instructor the head instructor always paid our fee's for tournaments and stuff.

Darn it...I broke my silence I was hoping I could go at least a few good months w/o posting in this forum...I am so weak.

Anyways if you wanna discuss one steps I am all for it. I think one steps should be a combinations of not just striking but also grabs and take downs aswell. For instance usually the grappling portion is usually taught under self defense when a person is grabbed. And one steps are just left to striking and the way you would respond if you were say sparring or actually fighting. This is because TKD is primarily a striking art, however, because I studied Tang Soo do I was privaledge to have an instructor who mixed in jujutsu and judo along with the striking. This way your students can get good all around training.

Watcha think fellas?

_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#315175 - 01/16/07 10:27 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Prizewriter]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Great thanks for the info. When I teach patterns I also teach other applications of the techniques. I will check out the book!

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#315176 - 01/16/07 10:30 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TeK9]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
One Steps.. I will start a post on One steps and I agree with you on this. Look for the post! I think that is a great topic to start with.

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#315177 - 01/17/07 01:32 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Prizewriter]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I have a couple of his books, I believe the last book I got of his is how to use tai chi for fighting. Also there is a video out with him illustrating bunkai from kata. A.k.a. applications from forms. I wasn't going to get it but I hear its good, I was skeptical but my sources have told me that it is not the typical block, kick, block and punch kind of application, it's supposed to get a little dirty with nasty attacks. Which to me is what real self defense is about; the little sneaky moves that hurt but cant be seen.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#315178 - 01/17/07 06:22 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
So Tek, how about some comments regarding our pm communication, huh????

TREV:-)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#315179 - 01/17/07 03:16 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: BulldogTKD]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Politics also keeps me away as we don't discuss this at all in class and therefore I see no reason to get worked up over things outside of class. Now if you want to talk about application and technique then I'm all for it.

Our school teaches traditional WTF TKD, if you can call it that. We are not a sports orientated school though we do have a fighting team that mostly consists of juniors but they train later in the afternoon so is separate from regular classes. And we have probably attended more then our fair share of grappling tournaments which I attend when my body will allow me. We do the Taegeuk forms, One-Steps, Breaking and Sparring for belt promotions but this doesn't even touch on what our school is all about. Originally it was TKD and Hapkido blended until my Instructor trained to black belt in JJJ and then blue belt in BJJ. Then add in his MMA training and this should give you an idea of the direction of our school. But WTF TKD is the main focus and the others are only supplementary and why we only test WTF TKD. However in the last 1.5 years our grappling classes usually once a week have carried on to weekends and stuff and has been my main focus for some time; actually putting me behind on my TKD training.

So anything in particular you want to discuss count me in.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315180 - 01/17/07 04:46 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
tkd_dude Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 23
Loc: Overland Park, KS
I do WTF Taekwondo and a little bit of Hapkido. I would definately like to see some more WTF action in the forum. A lot of the ITF history posts seem to just be . Maybe this'll spark some good conversation.

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#315181 - 01/17/07 04:51 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: tkd_dude]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Guys, if you want to talk about WTF TKD, then start a thread. Don't sit on your bum waiting for some one else to come up with a topic for discussion.

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#315182 - 01/17/07 05:36 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Supremor]
Dudley32 Offline
master of disaster

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 482
Loc: Indiana
Quote:

Guys, if you want to talk about WTF TKD, then start a thread. Don't sit on your bum waiting for some one else to come up with a topic for discussion.




But don't most people sit on their bums even when they are posting?

I do WTF taekwondo I suppose. My branch is mudokwan, but I compete wtf and our forms are wtf. The truth is... I just like to kick people.

MaTT
_________________________
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect Practice makes perfect.

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#315183 - 01/17/07 05:45 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dudley32]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Your style of TKD is Moo duk kwan? Do you have a lot of jumping/flying kicks in your style?
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#315184 - 01/18/07 05:48 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: tkd_dude]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
So, two or three threads dealing with ITF garbage and you WTF guys couldn't start your own? Do you need everyone else to do something for you?

Huh, these Olympic stars are just pampered prima donna's! I suppose you wouldn't go training unless someone else started the club!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#315185 - 01/18/07 09:59 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: trevek]
chr1s Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 17
Quote:

So, two or three threads dealing with ITF garbage and you WTF guys couldn't start your own? Do you need everyone else to do something for you?

Huh, these Olympic stars are just pampered prima donna's! I suppose you wouldn't go training unless someone else started the club!




Someone's mother didn't give them enough attention. Now back to topic...

I've done WTF for about 9 years now. Been to nationals several times and some other large tournaments. I amd currently part of a TKD club on my university campus that has members from WTF/ITF/ATA. We have instructors from each organization and do all styles of forms, all kinds of sparring, drills and exercises from each organization, etc.

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#315186 - 01/20/07 05:00 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: chr1s]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

Someone's mother didn't give them enough attention.




Ah, too true... mother sent me to Judo!
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#315187 - 01/24/07 01:12 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

So, two or three threads dealing with ITF garbage and you WTF guys couldn't start your own? Do you need everyone else to do something for you?

Huh, these Olympic stars are just pampered prima donna's! I suppose you wouldn't go training unless someone else started the club!




I didn't know there were more than 3 WTF TKD stylist left. Even when a topic was started, it quickly became ITF driven. I am willing to meet people half way, but sheesh, it seems ITF is trying to rename the same brand that everyone else uses.

In trying to make something korean, they've basically just renamed what was already generally used. I dunno but can they be sued for copy rights infringement, or plagerism or something. Unless there is a major change in a technique and I mean major, the name should remain.

This is something Herb Perez was talking about when Koreans claim that TKD is a 2000 year old art instead of just admitting that it is japanese karate. They create this huge lie and innocent people get confised and caught up in this myth. Instead what they should be proud of is the modern sport of TKD which infact is purely korean, even the techniques have been altered yet still have the same terms as the original Korean karate master. I think what changed about Korean arts was not the techniques so much, but the emphais of using the kicking techniques to a greater degree than other martial arts. Now with the new sport TKD you can see a definate change in the approach to kicking, so the techniques have changed they are more scientific and less traditional.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#315188 - 01/24/07 07:26 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TeK9]
halltzu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 6
Loc: chicago, il
i train in WTF TKD (and i'm brand new here - and was really happy to find this site ). and while i used to do some competition, it's not really my interest anymore (does that make me a wierd WTF'er?)... so while competition's great, i love to talk about anything not (necessarily) realted to competition.

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#315189 - 01/24/07 08:25 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
TeK9:

There is little doubt that Korean striking Arts have been greatly influenced by Japanese Karate, namely Shotokan. Some still practice it the way they were taught back in the 50s. Basically that is Korean Karate. I have no problem with that.
However, as the Art evolved both the ITF & WTF (KTA & Kukkiwon) took the Art down a different path. The 1st TKD book in English was written by Mr. Choi Hong Hi in 1965. he was at that time a retired Major General & former Ambassador. That 1st book closely followed his Shotokan roots. In 1972, his next book showed big differences, as did his 1983 Encylopedia & subsequent editions & condensed versions. To say that today's updated ITF is still Karate, well yes & no, All striking Arts have things in common. They also have things that set them apart.
What TKD is I leave up to others. I know what it is for me. Some look at it as an umbrella name for Korean striking Arts. Others look at it as something more specific to what they do. Both can be right.

From my inderstanding, the WTF & Kukkiwon have made changes as well, to make their style more Korean. I can not speak to that, at the same level I can with the ITF Chang Hon stlye of Taekwon-Do. Maybe others can. But what sets us apart from the Japanese Arts, is more than just terminology.

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#315190 - 01/24/07 08:56 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
To make sure you understand me better ITFunity, I want you to know that I am only referring to the physical techniques and not the philosophy of TKD or it's cultural tradition. While I know TKD is made up of much more than just it's physical characteristics, it is these physical attributes that I feel Master Choi has in a way fabricated their creation. What I mean is, it's like claiming he created a whole new system of TKD when infact it looks exactly the same as any other art practiced at the time in Korea. The techniques are exactly the same but he changed the names to make them more Korean, how does this make them more Korean? because he claimed he created a better system than karate using karates very same techniques? No sir, to me he did not create a new system of martial arts, to me he created a curriculum; a new way to train in martial arts. While keeping those very same techniques that every other style in Korea was using.

What changes did he make? Does the forms make the system? Because his forms use the exact same techniques used in any other karate system, the only difference is the sequence in which they are performed. He added the sign wave, but is that mearely enough to claim a completely different from karate? One of the differences between karate and korean karate was the emphasis the Koreans used with their kicks, many claimed it was due to the indigenous martial arts of Korea, whether that is true or not, this was enough to create a new style of karate, Korean karate but still karate.

Also I disagree with the general asking other martial artist who called their art karate to change their arts name to Tae Kwon Do just to establish this new "Style" which is exactly the way it's been practiced for so many years, only the orderred in which things were introduced (curriculum) changed.

Like brazillion jiu-jitsu, it's still ju-jutsu the only major difference is that they place an emphasis on ground grappling. Small circle ju-jitsu is still ju-jitsu only it places an emphasis on finger and wrist locking, small limbs/targets of the body.

I see Tang Soo Do as classical Korean karate, and if the name change is in effect then I also see it as Tae Kwon Do but simply because the name change, but it is still the same art.

Like hapkido and daito ryu ju-jutsu, they are the same art, only the korean master decided to change the name in Korean, the only difference between those two arts is that hapkido has adopted more kicking techniques. A blend from the korean karate that was being taught in those days.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#315191 - 01/25/07 01:50 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: halltzu]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

i train in WTF TKD (and i'm brand new here - and was really happy to find this site ). and while i used to do some competition, it's not really my interest anymore (does that make me a wierd WTF'er?)... so while competition's great, i love to talk about anything not (necessarily) realted to competition.




Welcome to the forum. I also train WTF and do not like to compete so don't. I'm not there for the competition as we are not sports orientated, I'm there for the skills and techniques that are taught. Yes we spar in class on set days once a week or so but if you go to those classes is up to you. Of course it is beneficial and it is manditory for testing that you be able to perform your requirements at each level.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315192 - 01/25/07 04:52 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Dereck

If your school is not sports orientated then why practice the kicks that were created for tournament sparring? Is it because they are part of the Olympic style Tkd and so its out of tradition? Because some kicks such as the nado ban or tornado kick are clearly good only for competition.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#315193 - 01/25/07 05:25 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TeK9]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
The school is not sports orientated but there is a junior fighting team and we even have a few adults that compete. We are also affiliated to 2 other schools plus a 3rd school joins us for testing; our 4 schools will have an interclub tournament 3 to 4 times a year.

Overall no, we are not sports orientated but kicking is a necessity to any fighting art. It mostly has to do with tradition passed down by my Instructor's South Korean Master, but I will let you know that my Instructor used to be a fierce competitor and traveled the world fighting and represented Canada in Japan. Thankfully his Master told him not to focus on the sport side but it does not stop my Instructor from teaching the skill but as well his competitive nature has pushed him in other directions such as BJJ/JJJ/MMA and now he's taking up boxing ... and then these skills come back to us and those of us that enjoy these then compete in those areas such as myself in Gi Grappling and No Gi Submission Wrestling.

Being well balanced and rounded is his goal. If you want to compete he will allow you to compete and train you as such in what ever form you want; we've had others compete in Kick Boxing tournaments. Kicking, punching, grappling ... they are all necessaties, it is just that TKD is the foundation.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315194 - 01/25/07 11:47 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
chr1s Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/05/06
Posts: 17
Anyone competing in the US Open in Orlando in a few weeks?

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#315195 - 01/26/07 12:06 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes TeK9 I agree with much of what you post. However, there are always things that all MAs share in common. Obviously TKD has its roots in Shotokan. In fact, some today still teach that (Shotokan/TangSoDo) - but call it TKD. They even still do the HeiAn Katas. WTF mostly concerns itself with the sport rules, which are very different from Karate. The ITF, under Ambassador Choi emphasized more of a standard syllabus. There are many additions, kicks, flying kicks, chambers, previous posititions & like you adaptly put it, a new way to train. That to me is where I find my answer. I do think that your points are valid, but I do look at it differently. At some point, all MAs are the same. At some point, they are different. That point, is often determined by the level of sophisication of the observer. To some of my friends, its all Karate to them. Others, its all KungFu to them. In fact, some of my friends & even family members can't even pronounce TKD correctly. To them, it is a bunch of fighting in pajamas. To me, they are all so different, after you look beyond.

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#315196 - 01/26/07 08:57 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TeK9]
halltzu Offline
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Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 6
Loc: chicago, il
Quote:

Dereck

If your school is not sports orientated then why practice the kicks that were created for tournament sparring? Is it because they are part of the Olympic style Tkd and so its out of tradition? Because some kicks such as the nado ban or tornado kick are clearly good only for competition.




why would these kicks only be good for competition? i can see the movements you have to learn in order to perform these kicks having importance outside of the ring.

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#315197 - 01/26/07 10:04 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: halltzu]
TeK9 Offline
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Posts: 2257
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Well for instance the doubles (roundhouse kick) which is currently posted and discussed on another thread which I posted. Is one of those kicks invented for the use in tournament sparring. I however, have slightly altered it so that it can be useful for street fighting. It is not a basic move however, I would categorize it as an advance kicking technique, because of the mechanics and the level of difficulty which it requires to attain to perform effectively.

A kick one step higher in difficulty is a "triple kick" which is performed exactly how the double kick is only with one additional roundhouse at the end at head level. A kick such as this is great for tournaments because of the rules which handicap the defendant, for instance with a move so unbalanced such as the triple kick, a person could easily be pushed off balanced, however, pushing is not aloud in tournaments. Also, triple kicks are probably to long a combination, and cold be easily susceptible to a punch to the face. But in Olympic style TKD face punches are not permitted. So a triple in Olympic style sparring is very effective if you can pull it off, however, for actual fighting w/o rules, it is a technique with to much liability even for someone with superior skill.

Another kick that would not be advisable in an actual fight would be the jumping spinning heel kick sometimes called the jumping spinning hook kick. but most famously called the Jean Claude Van Dam Kick. It's a very fancy,pretty and effective kick if it lands, but it's just to much of a liability and the chances of you landing such a telegraphed kick is extremely low. Unless of course your filming an MA b-movie which the stunt guy is going to allow you to kick him.
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#315198 - 01/27/07 01:36 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TeK9]
halltzu Offline
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Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 6
Loc: chicago, il
ok, well, all my fights with gullible b-flic stuntpeople aside , i'll grant you that double and triple kicks, and kicks like the back spinning jumping heel or hook kicks are one i would not bust out with on the street.

however, i still maintain that those kicks require skills that are useful in "practical" self-defense situations. for example, double and triple kicks are good plyometric drills, and useful to increasing your overall kicking speed, which is useful in situations of practical self defense. Similarly, a kick such as back turning, spinning, jumping kicks require the sharpening of agility and the ability to move your hips around your center axis in (somewhat) less than conventional ways. these are also skills that could be useful in a practical self-defense situation...

so, while i may not use kicks such as those in self-defense situations and that i grant you, are really only effective in olympic style sparring situations, i still think practicing those kicks develop skills and abilities that are practically useful.

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#315199 - 01/27/07 01:48 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: halltzu]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I completely agree with you. Please check out the thread on double kicks and tell me what you think on my interpretation of the double kick. I altered the kick slightly to make it more street applicable for myself.

-Tek
_________________________
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#315200 - 02/05/08 01:08 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TeK9]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Hi people I too train WTF and am new here. My first post was yesterday under the human weapon subject.I am also glad to hear from other WTF people. I train taekwondo Hon MU Kwon Federation under Master sang Sup Kil. Have been reading fighting arts forum over a year but hesitated to participate, slow at typing. Had to post yesterday cause I couldn:t stand some of the comments reguarding WTF and taekwando in general any longer. If currious read the human weapon subject Pg. 7 would save me time in explaining, anyway welcome to all.

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#315201 - 02/05/08 04:58 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
michaelboik Offline
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Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Von
The first school I trained in was Han Moo Kwan under Master Ahmeed(sp). I remember GM Kil coming to the states and doing a demo of Hapkido. He's a small man but very powerful.
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#315202 - 02/05/08 06:55 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: michaelboik]
TKD_X Offline
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Isn't Han Moo Kwan was ITF-based? I do Han Moo Kwan style taekwondo under the Pan American Tae Kwon Do Federation (Grandmaster Won keun Bai is the president and founder). We do ITF forms without sine wave.
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#315203 - 02/05/08 10:26 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: michaelboik]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
michaelboik
Yes you are correct GM Kil is a sm. powerful man and he does provide a lot of self defence training to many organizations. Nice to here from someone that is familiar with Han Moo Kwan federation, many people have not herd of it, nice to here from you!

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#315204 - 02/05/08 10:42 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TKD_X]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
TKDX
I will attempt to give you the most accurate answer I can. I lack knowledge regarding ITF forms. I believe that there is a blending when it comes to forms. GM Kil is an excellent teacher, However when it comes to in depth discussion there is quite the communication gap even though he has been in the states for aprox. thirty years. No sine wave with us either. Are all your forms ITF or do you have a blending too?

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#315205 - 02/06/08 12:39 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
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Von1:

Please explain what it means to you, to be WTF or train WTF?
Thanks

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#315206 - 02/06/08 11:27 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
TKD_X Offline
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we are only ITF forms. i believe GM Bai knows the WTF forms,but he doesn't teach them in his curriculum.
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#315207 - 02/07/08 12:44 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

we are only ITF forms. i believe GM Bai knows the WTF forms,but he doesn't teach them in his curriculum.




But what do you mean by WTF or to train WTF?

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#315208 - 02/07/08 12:48 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY

When I refer to train WTF I am referring to that part of my training regarding sparing and WTF sparing rules. On other postings I have stated that most participants of WTF sparing only use sparing to work on our kicking skills which is the most difficult part of taekwondo to master. The rules aid this because you can effectly train to kick with out a fist in your face. The general thinking is that punching/hand techniques are more instinctual a natural, easier to master. We incorporate training methods with the hands( and yes they are up for guarding and ready to strike) designed to put it all together for realistic application our sparing is only a tool. I don"t know a single WTF person that would defend the same way they spar. This is why I am confused as to why people make fun of olympic competitors and think these people would not know how to defend them selves.

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#315209 - 02/07/08 01:25 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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Loc: Great White North
ITFunity, I'm not sure where you are going with this? All of our testing is required by the WTF that includes sparring, breaking, patterns, etc. The WTF is not just the sparring rules, or not as it has been explained to me. My testing certificates all show the WTF Taekwondo Alliance of Alberta, the WTF Canada Taekwondo Federation and also the WTF itself. Certificates after testing usually take 1 to 2 weeks and with my black belt as it come from Korean, may take 3 to 6 months and am still waiting for it.

Perhaps for myself and von1 you could explain what you are looking for and we may be better equipped to answer.
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#315210 - 02/07/08 05:44 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
badachagi Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
This point has probably been made in other posts, but it is worth repeating anyway.

The Kukkiwon is a Korean organization that establishes the technical standards for the MARTIAL ART of Taekwondo. The Kukkiwon is concerned with promotion standards, dan/instructor certifications, and TKD curriculum via the Kukkiwon textbook. The style of TKD promoted by the Kukkiwon is often called "Kukki Taekwondo".

The WTF is an international sports federation that exists to govern the Olympic sport of Taekwondo gyoroogi (sparring). Most of its activities revolve around certifying officials (i.e. referees), establishing rules, holding and promoting events for said sport.

The style of TKD promoted by Kukkiwon is often called "Kukki Taekwondo". So then, the Kukkiwon is a MARTIAL ARTS organization promoting the MARTIAL ART of Kukki Taekwondo, while the WTF is a SPORTS organization that promotes the SPORT of Kukki Taekwondo sparring.

The WTF does not give out Dan certificates, invent forms, or provide testing standards. The Kukkiwon does not make up rules for Olympic sparring, certify refereees, or decide where the next World Championships will be held.

If there is such a thing as "WTF Taekwondo", then the most accurate definition would be that "WTF Taekwondo" is the sport of TKD sparring as governed by WTF rules. Therefore, WTF TKD is that sport that is concerned primarily with kicking where you wear all those pads and "never use your hands." ;-)

On the other hand, Kukki Taekwondo is the martial art comprised of kicking/punching, forms, breaking, sparring, and self-defense principles. Just look at the Tae Geuk and Pal Gwe forms and you'll easily see they are about 90% hand techniques (some of the Dan level forms have NO kicking), including punches, uppercuts, backfists, fingertip strikes, hammer fists, throat strikes, and elbows. Go to a reputable Kukki TKD school, and they will require mastery of hand and foot techniques, breaking, sparring, one-steps, and philosophy/history.

The confusions between Kukki TKD and "WTF TKD" or "Olympic TKD" is that the Kukkiwon and WTF occupy the same building, and at one time the same person was the president of both. Additionally, in America, you have schools that say they practice "WTF TKD" or "Olympic TKD", when they really mean "Kukki TKD". Of course, there are also those schools who say they practice Olympic/WTF TKD, and they are actually correct because they cater exclusively to competition and athletes (i.e. a lot of schools that call themselves "sport TKD"), and forego the full Kukkiwon curriculum.

I second von1's comments regarding self-defense. Sport/WTF/Olympic TKD by definition is a sport, and thus the very limitations imposed on it for competition would render it less effective for SD than a full-blown martial art. On the other hand, Kukki TKD provides many techniques which would be applicable to SD situations. A TKD practitioner who is versed in the full spectrum of techniques available in Kukki TKD would have many weapons available to them, and it's absurd to assume that such an individual would just bounce around and try to take out a mugger with jump spinning hook kicks to the head.

_Taekwondo: State of the Art_ by Masters Sung Chul Whang, Jun Chul Whang, and Dae Sung Lee have a good treatment on the topic of the relevency of sparring to self-defense. Without reprinting their entire argument, a well-trained TKD athlete will have developed very fast movements, powerful strikes, effective footwork, a good sense of distance/timing, and will know how to take a hit and keep fighting. Now, give that same athlete more targets than just the head and body (knees, throat, eyes, groin, etc), and more weapons (punches, elbows, knees, etc), and I'd say that the athlete will probably do a lot more damage than someone that just sits around doing forms or one-steps all day.

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#315211 - 02/07/08 06:17 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Nicely written. Because of this I will say we are Taekwondo and just Taekwondo and we are "affiliated" with the WTF and have banner/flag on our wall and their name on our certificates. We are not sports orientated.
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#315212 - 02/07/08 07:13 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

ITFunity, I'm not sure where you are going with this? All of our testing is required by the WTF that includes sparring, breaking, patterns, etc. The WTF is not just the sparring rules, or not as it has been explained to me. My testing certificates all show the WTF Taekwondo Alliance of Alberta, the WTF Canada Taekwondo Federation and also the WTF itself.

Perhaps for myself and von1 you could explain what you are looking for and we may be better equipped to answer.




Yes this was what I was looking for. I think the very informative & well written post above explains what I was going to post. I have to be honest, I could not have said it that good, nor do I have that deepth of knowledge on the subject, as I am ITF. Most of what I have learned regarding the fact that the WTF is JUST a sports body, comes from talks with others on forums such as this.

Now the ITF is a MA organization. In fact, it was the 1st world wide governing body for TKD, established in Seoul, SK in 1966, 7 years before the WTF (1973). The ITF has a set syllabus that all ITF numbered affiliated schools have to follow. The extent to which all schools follow is varied, but many would concide that it is followed to a larger extent than the Kukkiwon schools do. They do have a system in place to help insure compliance, but it is far from perfect. I make no claim that one is better than the other, or that following a set syllabus is better than doing your own thing. However, I offer it to merely show that the ITF can be & often is referred to as a style of TKD. Now the proper style name would be Chang HonTK-D , the pen name of the founder.

So my overall point or bottom line would be, there is no style of WTF TKD, just a WTF sport. There is not set WTF training syllabus, other than the tournament rules. So to claim one is WTF on one hand & say they are not just a sport & to say one has WTF certification or follows their training syllabus, doesn't make sense to me. I thank the new poster with contributing a great 1st post & hope there is more to come!

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#315213 - 02/07/08 08:44 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Yes,

This is an excellent definition. It has been one of my pet peeves for a long time, but worse than that, I have given into calling them WTF or ITF TKD just because I was getting tired of having to double up on posts "Kukki TKD (WTF)" or "Chang Hon TKD (ITF). Very nice job, Thank you !

VDJ

ITFunity,

Don't sell yourself short. You have made some very good posts written just as articulately.

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#315214 - 02/07/08 11:22 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Now the ITF is a MA organization. In fact, it was the 1st world wide governing body for TKD, established in Seoul, SK in 1966, 7 years before the WTF (1973). The ITF has a set syllabus that all ITF numbered affiliated schools have to follow. The extent to which all schools follow is varied, but many would concide that it is followed to a larger extent than the Kukkiwon schools do. They do have a system in place to help insure compliance, but it is far from perfect. I make no claim that one is better than the other, or that following a set syllabus is better than doing your own thing. However, I offer it to merely show that the ITF can be & often is referred to as a style of TKD. Now the proper style name would be Chang HonTK-D , the pen name of the founder.

So my overall point or bottom line would be, there is no style of WTF TKD, just a WTF sport. There is not set WTF training syllabus, other than the tournament rules. So to claim one is WTF on one hand & say they are not just a sport & to say one has WTF certification or follows their training syllabus, doesn't make sense to me. I thank the new poster with contributing a great 1st post & hope there is more to come!




I agree w/you. I think it is most correct to say that Kukkiwon is analogous to the ITF, in that the Kukkiwon and ITF are both martial arts organizations (as opposed to sports federations under the IOC) that govern the technical standards and curriculum for their particular "flavor" of TKD (Kukki TKD vs. Chang Hon TKD).

What's amusing is that many first generation Korean masters get this wrong. I see a lot of KKW TKD schools that advertise they "belong to the WTF" or are "WTF certified". FACT: Individuals and/or clubs cannot belong to the WTF, only national governing bodies. My KKW certificates say nothing about the WTF on it, other than than (at the time) Un Yong Kim was president of both organizations.

What also doesn't help is that the KKW and the WTF are housed in the building called... Kukkiwon!

To add to my previous post, you don't even need to necessarily practice Kukki TKD to compete in WTF events. Several members of the US national team got their start in NASKA, point-style tournaments/schools. There was even a US national team memeber several years back who apparently was from a Chang Hon/ITF club (as evidenced by their forms and doboks):

http://www.hanstkd.com/yung-han.php

WTF used to require that you had a Kukkiwon certified Dan to compete in their events, but I think at some point the IOC stepped in and said that an international sports federation could not require an athlete to possess credentials from a sports organization belonging to a particular nation. So since Kukkiwon is a Korean martial arts organization, the IOC said that WTF could not require their competitors to be certified through a Korean organization. In practice most competitors have KKW dans, but there are notable exceptions. I believe Arlene Limas (88 Seoul Olympics gold medalist from USA) came from a Jhoon Rhee system, and did not have a KKW dan, and fought get on the US Team without one.

In many other countries where TKD is developing as an Olympic sport, they don't even teach the full Kukki TKD curriculum, only what's required for WTF sparring rules. In the book I mentioned in my previous post, Master Dae Sung Lee tells about how he visited China to train the Chinese national team. He recounts how he found a TKD team that had recruited athletes from the wushu, basketball, and track teams only a few years before his visit. They knew no forms or self-defense principles and only knew sparring. Sadly, I think this is more common in many other nations where TKD is developing.


Edited by badachagi (02/07/08 11:27 PM)

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#315215 - 02/08/08 01:11 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Thank you for the kind words. However, this does not change the fact that I have limited knowledge about the WTF, KTA & Kukkiwon. Itis nice & I think even better if someone explains their set up, that does not have ITF in their screen name.

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#315216 - 02/08/08 01:13 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

WTF used to require that you had a Kukkiwon certified Dan to compete in their events, but I think at some point the IOC stepped in and said that an international sports federation could not require an athlete to possess credentials from a sports organization belonging to a particular nation. So since Kukkiwon is a Korean martial arts organization, the IOC said that WTF could not require their competitors to be certified through a Korean organization. In practice most competitors have KKW dans, but there are notable exceptions.




I did not know this. When did they rule on this?

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#315217 - 02/08/08 01:16 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

What's amusing is that many first generation Korean masters get this wrong. I see a lot of KKW TKD schools that advertise they "belong to the WTF" or are "WTF certified". FACT: Individuals and/or clubs cannot belong to the WTF, only national governing bodies. My KKW certificates say nothing about the WTF on it, other than than (at the time) Un Yong Kim was president of both organizations.




Yes that is very common place. Which I guess leads the students to believe the same, which probably contributes to the mistaken impression. JMHO

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#315218 - 02/08/08 03:44 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
The main ITF club in Olsztyn, a city in North Poland, had, at one time, 5 ITF world champions. They now also train "Olympic-style" and their fighters are considered for the Polish Olympic squad.
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#315219 - 02/08/08 08:56 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

TKDX
I will attempt to give you the most accurate answer I can. I lack knowledge regarding ITF forms. I believe that there is a blending when it comes to forms. GM Kil is an excellent teacher, However when it comes to in depth discussion there is quite the communication gap even though he has been in the states for aprox. thirty years. No sine wave with us either. Are all your forms ITF or do you have a blending too?




When I started the HMK was doing the Pal Gwe forms and the new Tae Guek forms. There was no ITF recognition at all. I remember asking about Gen. Choi( I had the 1965 book and thought that everyone would know him) my instructor looked at me like I was crazy. so i don't think they had anything to do with the ITF.
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#315220 - 02/08/08 09:05 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Badachagi

Your reply was very refreshing I wish I had your communication skills. I think I rubbed some of the long time posters the wrong way in my response to this matter. Few could have stated it better than you just did. I hovered on fighting arts too long and watched the discussion slowly tilt to the negative side regarding wtf sparing and came out far too aggressive in trying to communicate what it is about and how these comments are damaging the reputation of all of tae kwon do. I did not achieve my goal thanks for picking up the slack. Looking back I wished I would have started my own thread instead of responding to other peoples, just some advise to other opionionated newbie"s

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#315221 - 02/08/08 09:33 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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Loc: Great White North
I have to say this is all a little confusing. I just wanted to make a note and this may confuse things more. When black belt testing I had to do this for my school and it involved a fitness test that took an hour plus I had to do the required patterns, one-steps, sparring and breaking. After passing this I was considered a black belt however this was only recognized by "our" schools. A couple of weeks later I had to take another test that was put on by the "WTF Alliance of Alberta" that had schools from across Alberta come to one central location to be tested by a panel of high ranking black belts. Required of us were all of the same stuff without the fitness test portion. I have to admit the testing was far easier then our own. Now passing this test recognized me as a black belt and certification comes from Seoul Korea and takes 3 to 6 months; and sometimes longer.

What I'm trying show is that I had to be tested by the "WTF" in order to be recognized everywhere as a black belt. This leads me to believe that the WTF does have set requirements. When taking the test the patterns were all the same however the one-steps were not as some school had different ones then what we did however I understand this as our were created mostly by my Instructors South Korean Master.

So what gives?
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#315222 - 02/08/08 10:49 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I have to say this is all a little confusing.
I have to admit the testing was far easier then our own. Now passing this test recognized me as a black belt and certification comes from Seoul Korea and takes 3 to 6 months;
What I'm trying show is that I had to be tested by the "WTF" in order to be recognized everywhere as a black belt. This leads me to believe that the WTF does have set requirements. So what gives?




Dereck, Sir, I am not sure what gives. I will attempt to give you my insight. I suggest that you speak to your instructor & clarify things.
First TKD to some is just like a generic umbrella term to define a KMA (striking). It goes back to their hated brutual occupation the suffered under the Japanese. When that ended after WWII, a movement to reinstill Korean culture & pride took place. One of the things that took place was a new name TKD was offered, by General Choi. Some took the name & did the TKD he taught. Some took the name & did what they were previoulsy doing, karate & others did not take the name & others took it later on. The ITF always had somewhat of a required syllabus. When the WTF was later formed, since it was a sports organization, they only thing that they governed was the tournament rules. So it was plain to see that their schools did whatever techniques they did before, other than the tournament rules & continued this. So we can see that there is little standardization of technique in TKD.
If you have a cert coming from SK, it may be from the Kukkiwon & that would be nice. It may also be coming from some other organization that is there as well, but then chances are it would not be the official semi-govt one of the Kukkiwon. Now from what I understand, the Kukkiwon application for BB cert must have some signatures on it that are authorized by the Kukkiwon. Maybe someone else can clarify that. That may explain why there was a seperate 2nd test.
There is confusion out there. But rest assurred there are 3 basics ways to look at it, you are doing Korean Karate TKD, Kukki TKD, or Chang Hon TKD. What adds to the confusion is the political bickering that led people to think, they are not ITF, as they are not following the founder, so they must be WTF, the largest governing body in the world. In addition many wear the popular V neck DoBoks that are associated with the WTF, many even coming with WT logos on it. School also hang WTF flags that are sold in many MA outlets. It is next to impossible to find an ITF flag, unless you make your own or know another member that did. The WTF plaques are sold in most MA outlet. The ITF serial numbered ones are only available through ITF headquarters after paying the annual dues. There are additional examples of this as well, but I think the point is made. Finally, not many people know when the ITF has a WC, unless they are current ITF. very few watch it & less identify with it, because of the different rules. However, the WTF WCs gets a lot of attention & even if your school is not involved, you may identify with it, as the fighting rules are the same as what you do. Same for the Olympics. So it is a perception problem, that hopefully forums like this can help clear up.

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#315223 - 02/08/08 10:52 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

When taking the test the patterns were all the same however the one-steps were not as some school had different ones then what we did however I understand this as our were created mostly by my Instructors South Korean Master.



Dereck:
Why Sir should 1 steps be the same?

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#315224 - 02/08/08 11:05 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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ITFunity, our WTF flag comes directly from the WTF in Korea and was brought back by one of our students upon his visit there. This replaced our original one that also came directly from the WTF in Korea however the newer one represented their newer look and why it was changed out; no replicas here from any martial arts store.

Certificate comes directly from Korea where you are registered as well a card will be returned which looks like a driver's license with your name on it. There is a place on line that I had found before that showed those registered but I can no longer find it as it has been a number of years. At the time I looked on it there were people that I recognized from my school and others that were registered.

I will most certainly discuss this further with my Instructor. Remember, we don't get hung up on politics and never discuss the inner workings and stuff like other schools and this made lead to further misunderstanding of how things are however I can assure you that it was the WTF TKD Alliance of Alberta that oversees the testing.

As for one-steps, I wasn't saying they should be the same but at standardization would be a good idea, you can at least agree with that coming from an ITF school.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315225 - 02/08/08 11:29 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I hovered on fighting arts too long and watched the discussion slowly tilt to the negative side regarding wtf sparing and came out far too aggressive in trying to communicate what it is about and how these comments are damaging the reputation of all of tae kwon do.




Dereck:
I think I understand what you are saying. I would not say it is only limited to "WTF sparring". All TKD has suffered. IMHO the poor reputation is deserved to an extent & has more to do with than just some places emphasizing an Olympic sport.

What every one should realize & understand, is that no Country ever exported thousands of its people abroad to teach a MA. Remember, SK was a poor, developing Country tangled in a brutual military dictatorship, still in a technical perpetual state of war with NK. When these immigrants set up schools, they not only made an income from them, but in many cases for family members still back home. In the 60s & 70s these schools, as most MA schools, were hard core. The goal was to learn tough SD. No pain, no gain was the motto. Blood & sweat, along with black eyes & other injuries were common place. Over time these things changed. Seminars on how to make money started to appear, along with chain schools of the MAs. Insurance regulations softened things. The Karate Kid & Ninja Turtles movies invited in kids & the money they brought in with them. Parents didn't want the blood & sweat, but rather the Mr. Miyagi respect effect. Schools eventually started to fill voids with the latch key kids, as either both parents were working or the kids were being raised by single moms. What better way to have your kids learn discipline than in a MAs program, they thought. Now we have schools that have vans that pick them up, feed them, help them with their homework, give them a physical activity to do, till they get picked up by the working parent(s). It is a good deal for all, except the reputation of the MAs as a SD training mechanism.

Getting back to SK & this is not a knock on a Nation, but what other Countries have colleges dedicated to TKD? Now why does someone go to college? I suggest to get an education in order to get a job. IMHO a job is to allow you to earn an income. The MAs & money don't mix well. The best MA schools I have encountered, were run by MAists that loved the MAs & wanted to teach it. The worst MA schools I have encountered, are full time schools, were the instructor depends on the income to live. I know there are exceptions to every rule, but it has not been my overall experience.

These young SK masters who graduate & then go teach, do have somewhat of a standard curriculmn they learned in college. I think that there is some attention to the sparring rules & this does spill over into their teaching. In SK, many have told me that TKD is looked at as a sport. A recent TV program also implied that. Some of these young college graduated masters have told me, they never knew about General Choi & they though the ITF was communist TKD from NK. General Choi was blacklisted in SK, labeled a communist & traitor. Many do not know it was SK former military that introduced TKD to NK, along with a Brit, a SK Minister, Americans, Canadaian, Greek & a Croatian from the former Yugoslavia.

The internet is changing a lot of this. IMHO I think it is a good idea to educate people about the roots & history of TKD's development as a feared military fighting system, documented by written communist Viet Cong orders/edict, long before the Kukkiwon or WTF was even a thought, if we hope to raise its repuation as weak on SD.

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#315226 - 02/08/08 11:41 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITFunity, our WTF flag comes directly from the WTF in Korea and was brought back by one of our students upon his visit there.




How did the student get it? Did they buy it in the Kukkiwon building? Did they have to show documentation that they were a member of an WTF NGB, as individuals can not be members of the WTF, only nations can be. Did they buy it at the authorized TKD stores in the area or at the TKD museium there?

I think you are missing my point. I am not talking about buying an official trademark flag made under copyright protections vs a bootleg knock off counterfit one. WTF flags are easy to come by, just like soccer jerseys, official ones & knock offs as well. ITF flags are very hard to come by & one probably would not hang one in their school, unless they were ITF. Ycan be both an individual member of the ITF, as well as a registered school.

So the fact that one has or hangs a WTF flag in their school, regardless of its sourse, is not a good indicator of its official status with the WTF or its member nations.

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#315227 - 02/08/08 11:50 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

As for one-steps, I wasn't saying they should be the same but at standardization would be a good idea, you can at least agree with that coming from an ITF school.




No way, no how, never!
The ITF 1 steps are not standardized. The way they start is. For example, both attacker & defender stand i/f/o each other, in a pararell ready stance, at a distance pre-determined by the attacker, depending on the attack to be used. The attack is done from this position, without going back into a walking stance with low block & attacks with any & all attacks are allowed, not just a punch with the right forefist. You can only do 1 attack & 1 counterattack. There are examples of this in the Encylopedia, but they are just that. Our 1 steps are a SD drill, where the attacker must try to hit the defender, with all available attacks. In the case of all step sparring, 1, 2 & 3 steps, as a student advances, the attacks should be more spontaneous & realistic.

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#315228 - 02/08/08 12:00 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Dereck,

It sounds like your certifications are all from the Kukkiwon, NOT WTF. Look at your certifications and see if you can find anything that says "World Taekwondo Federation" on them. They should all read "Kukkiwon". If they do say WTF on them, then I'm not sure what to tell you, as the WTF DOES NOT issue dan certificates. If you don't believe me, you can Google both the WTF and KKW websites and see if there's anything about dan certifications or TKD curriculum on the WTF site. In fact, the KKW website actually allows you to check Dan registrations online. You just type in someone's name, nationality, and birthday, and it spits out the person's KKW dan number.

I have heard of some schools claiming to be "WTF members" and they place the WTF logo prominently on their own school certificates, but frankly this means nothing. It means you have a school certificate with the WTF logo on it. KKW will not recognize this. I hope this is not your situation.

The problem is that many schools, instructors, and even first gen. Korean masters get this wrong. Even my own. I don't think the WTF and KKW has done enough to clear up this misconception. So many schools, even those run by Koreans, advertise that they are WTF members, WTF certified, or affiliated w/the WTF. Only NGBs can be affiliated or members of the WTF, only referees and other officials can be certified by the WTF. If a school says it has any associated with the WTF, what it probably means is that they are KKW certified, and that they compete in WTF-rules competitions.

By the way, when you see a uniform or sparring gear with the WTF approved logo on it, it means that the WTF approved it for competition use.

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#315229 - 02/08/08 12:08 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

WTF used to require that you had a Kukkiwon certified Dan to compete in their events, but I think at some point the IOC stepped in and said that an international sports federation could not require an athlete to possess credentials from a sports organization belonging to a particular nation. So since Kukkiwon is a Korean martial arts organization, the IOC said that WTF could not require their competitors to be certified through a Korean organization. In practice most competitors have KKW dans, but there are notable exceptions.




I did not know this. When did they rule on this?





I'm not sure exactly when this happened, nor would I be able to provide you the details. And in fact, I think the WTF doesn't publicize this fact because they still want people to get certified through the KKW for WTF competitions, even if they are no longer allowed to impose the requirement upon players due to the IOC ruling. This way, most people will go on thinking that they need KKW certifications to compete. But then if someone raises an issue about this to the IOC, they can truthfully say that their rules don't mandate someone be KKW certified.

This is likely the case because of the long-standing relationship between the KKW and WTF. And also because publicly acklowedging that you don't need KKW certification opens up a whole can of worms that I don't think the WTF wants to face. For example, that means Chang Hon TKD practitioners can (and do) enter WTF competitions. It even means that you don't, strictly speaking, need to be any kind of TKD black belt. Theoretically, you could be a blue belt in Shotokan Karate, who is very athletic and was able to adapt your kicks to WTF rules and competition, progress through your country's team selection process, and make it onto your country's team, all without even knowing actual TKD!

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#315230 - 02/08/08 12:21 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
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Yes I see your point! I wonder how this will effect any merger talks?

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#315231 - 02/08/08 01:10 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Yes I see your point! I wonder how this will effect any merger talks?




I haven't followed the merger talks very carefully, so I may be speaking out of ignorance. But it seems to me that, given the differences between KKW and WTF that I outlined in previous posts, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for ITF and WTF to merge. This is simply because the two organizations have different scope -- one (the WTF) is an international sports federation that exists for the purposes of regulating TKD competition, the other (ITF) is MA organization that establishes standards and curriculum.

I think it would make more sense for the *Kukkiwon* and ITF to be in talks for merger, as those are the two analogous organizations for their particular style of TKD.

This is just my personal speculation, but I don't think the WTF has a whole lot to gain by "merging" with ITF, at least in regards to its status as the world governing body for sport TKD competition. It's already acheived all of that w/out the ITF.

If anything, I would think that merger talks would be more about bringing WTF and ITF sparring competition rules to be more in sync so as to officially open up the possibility of more ITF players competing in WTF competitions. Also, the politics of the art are very much wrapped up in the politices of NK and SK, so perhaps these merger talks are really a way for both countries, on a very vey small level, bto begin to work collaboratively on a common goal.

My personal thoughts: As a Korean-born American, I would love to see NK and SK reunification. While I am a KKW TKD practitioner for 20+ years, and I love sport TKD competition, I have much respect for Chang Hon practitioners, and I have even learned several of the ITF forms. I think the ITF forms are actually pretty cool looking, but I'll be honest and say I'm not such a big fan of the sine-wave thing. Assuming the rules can be worked out to be agreeable to both organizations, I think having large masses of ITF fighters in WTF competitions can only improve the quality of TKD competition fighting. Perhaps an ITF/WTF merger could be seen as similar to other famous league mergers in sports histor (AFL/NFL, NBA/ABA, UFC/Pride).


Edited by badachagi (02/08/08 01:14 PM)

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#315232 - 02/08/08 01:35 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

ITFunity, our WTF flag comes directly from the WTF in Korea and was brought back by one of our students upon his visit there.




How did the student get it? Did they buy it in the Kukkiwon building? Did they have to show documentation that they were a member of an WTF NGB, as individuals can not be members of the WTF, only nations can be. Did they buy it at the authorized TKD stores in the area or at the TKD museium there?

I think you are missing my point. I am not talking about buying an official trademark flag made under copyright protections vs a bootleg knock off counterfit one. WTF flags are easy to come by, just like soccer jerseys, official ones & knock offs as well. ITF flags are very hard to come by & one probably would not hang one in their school, unless they were ITF. Ycan be both an individual member of the ITF, as well as a registered school.

So the fact that one has or hangs a WTF flag in their school, regardless of its sourse, is not a good indicator of its official status with the WTF or its member nations.




I don't know all of the details but I will give you what I know. The gentleman is a firefighter and had gone down to South Korea as there is a division that competes and this is something he is very interested in. He was given a tour of the WTF facility and where he got the flag from, don't know any other particulars. Also a WTF Korean fighter also traded him track uniforms. The flag then was brought back as a gift and given to our Instructor and it proudly hangs on our wall beside the Korean Flag and the Canadian Flag.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315233 - 02/08/08 01:42 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
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Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

As for one-steps, I wasn't saying they should be the same but at standardization would be a good idea, you can at least agree with that coming from an ITF school.




No way, no how, never!
The ITF 1 steps are not standardized. The way they start is. For example, both attacker & defender stand i/f/o each other, in a pararell ready stance, at a distance pre-determined by the attacker, depending on the attack to be used. The attack is done from this position, without going back into a walking stance with low block & attacks with any & all attacks are allowed, not just a punch with the right forefist. You can only do 1 attack & 1 counterattack. There are examples of this in the Encylopedia, but they are just that. Our 1 steps are a SD drill, where the attacker must try to hit the defender, with all available attacks. In the case of all step sparring, 1, 2 & 3 steps, as a student advances, the attacks should be more spontaneous & realistic.




We differ on this then. I feel that if you are under one banner then there should be a standardization of what is taught from one school to the next so that when tested you can test anywhere or train anywhere; much like the ITF can.

Our one-steps the two stand across from each other with one attacking and one defending. The defender uses multiple defenses starting with easy ones such as block/striking the punch while at the same time punching them in the jaw. The higher you get the more intense they get including sweeping, tripping, takedowns, arm breaks, knees, etc. Number 3 would be a block/strike to the attacker's punching arm, while punching them in the jaw, then grabbing the wrist, stepping into the opponent so your hips are parallel, then pull wrist and sweep with your leg; when they hit the ground you turn the arm so their elbow is against your knee to simulate a break of the arm and then you punch them again in the face. At colored belt there are 9. At 1st Dan then you learn 26 self defense moves, at 2nd Dan you learn more and so on.

The attacker is not just throwing their arm out but are trying to punch the defender in the jaw and is stressed the higher you get up. If you don't move then you get hit and you learn really fast.

All one-steps are for self defense.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315234 - 02/08/08 02:40 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I think it would make more sense for the *Kukkiwon* and ITF to be in talks for merger, as those are the two analogous organizations for their particular style of TKD.




No way that will happen before ITF & WTF work something out!


Quote:

This is just my personal speculation, but I don't think the WTF has a whole lot to gain by "merging" with ITF, at least in regards to its status as the world governing body for sport TKD competition. It's already acheived all of that w/out the ITF.
If anything, I would think that merger talks would be more about bringing WTF and ITF sparring competition rules to be more in sync so as to officially open up the possibility of more ITF players competing in WTF competitions. Also, the politics of the art are very much wrapped up in the politices of NK and SK, so perhaps these merger talks are really a way for both countries, on a very vey small level, bto begin to work collaboratively on a common goal.




Absolutely!

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#315235 - 02/08/08 02:43 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

My personal thoughts: As a Korean-born American, I would love to see NK and SK reunification. While I am a KKW TKD practitioner for 20+ years, and I love sport TKD competition, I have much respect for Chang Hon practitioners, and I have even learned several of the ITF forms. I think the ITF forms are actually pretty cool looking, but I'll be honest and say I'm not such a big fan of the sine-wave thing. Assuming the rules can be worked out to be agreeable to both organizations, I think having large masses of ITF fighters in WTF competitions can only improve the quality of TKD competition fighting./quote]

Well even a high ranking official in the WTF feels the same way about the ITF Tuls. Bet I could change your mind if I taught you SW!

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#315236 - 02/08/08 02:45 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I don't know all of the details but I will give you what I know.




Please do so Dereck, as both of us Sir, can learn something. Thanks

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#315237 - 02/08/08 02:54 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

We differ on this then. I feel that if you are under one banner then there should be a standardization of what is taught from one school to the next so that when tested you can test anywhere or train anywhere; much like the ITF can.
Our one-steps the two stand across from each other with one attacking and one defending. The defender uses multiple defenses starting with easy ones such as block/striking the punch while at the same time punching them in the jaw. The higher you get the more intense they get including sweeping, tripping, takedowns, arm breaks, knees, etc. Number 3 would be a block/strike to the attacker's punching arm, while punching them in the jaw, then grabbing the wrist, stepping into the opponent so your hips are parallel, then pull wrist and sweep with your leg; when they hit the ground you turn the arm so their elbow is against your knee to simulate a break of the arm and then you punch them again in the face. At colored belt there are 9. At 1st Dan then you learn 26 self defense moves, at 2nd Dan you learn more and so on.
The attacker is not just throwing their arm out but are trying to punch the defender in the jaw and is stressed the higher you get up. If you don't move then you get hit and you learn really fast. All one-steps are for self defense.




Yes under standarization, most things are taught the same. How they are applied in actual situations depends on who is attacking, how they are attacking, the enviornment of where the attack takes place & of course, who is defending. No disrespect intended, but what you seem to be describing is more like a SD drill that actually be better described as a MA routine, as it appears that one player does an attack, which seems limited to a punch, then "strikes a pose". many would argue, this can actually be counterproductive from a SD standpoint.

It is imperative for one to know the purpose of what they are doing. The purpose of our 1 step sparring appears different from yours. So looking at the 2nd training secret of TKD, what is your, or your school's or organization purpose for 1 step sparring?

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#315238 - 02/08/08 03:27 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
only our sparing is sports oriented it is another tool for most all of the participants, our other training incorporates methods to put everything together for realistic application and/or self defence including hand techniques.

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#315239 - 02/08/08 03:39 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

It is imperative for one to know the purpose of what they are doing. The purpose of our 1 step sparring appears different from yours. So looking at the 2nd training secret of TKD, what is your, or your school's or organization purpose for 1 step sparring?




There are many things but first it must be understood that though these are set drills it is not meant to mimic like a pattern; not to mention that each individual is different in size shape and how they do their techniques to a certain degree.

As an attacker you must strike for the jaw. You must strike with force and speed to catch the defender off guard. Plus your must have good falling techniques whether your are swept and land on your side, pulled forward to the ground, or tripped. Grant it these are self defense techniques and most of the learning is on the defense side but the attacker must be ready for all that is going to happen to them. They will be hit and will be hit hard. At blue belt and up it is mandatory to actually strike the person and this helps you to understand impact and dealing with being hit.

As the defender you have to get off centre line or you will be hit in the jaw/face. You have to react quickly to the punch to and strike it as we are taught there is no such thing as blocks, we strike and strike hard and the more advanced the more it hurts but you expect it. There is so much that goes on and how you react and it gives your different ideas of what can be done in a situations similar to this. Knees, elbows, joint breaking, sweeps, trips, pulling your opponent off balance, striking vital areas and the such. I consider these highly useful techniques and my falling skills have sky rocketed because of these and have been commented on by other schools as having excellent falling techniques. Plus you have timing, distance and many other aspects that are vital. One-steps are more beneficial then any pattern in my opinion as it actually applying techniques against somebody.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315240 - 02/08/08 10:09 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes it sounds like you have given me an good explanation on how you do 1 steps. However, I see don't know what the purpose is. I also think that you describe a tough or hard use of techniques, which I think is good. But again, please tell me what the purpose of 1 steps are? Why do you do them? Thanks

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#315241 - 02/09/08 10:05 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Dereck


I second badagachagi, the WTF does not issue dan certs.

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#315242 - 02/09/08 03:07 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: von1]
Dereck Offline
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Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Dereck


I second badagachagi, the WTF does not issue dan certs.




For colored belts all certificates specify, "This certifies that ________________ has obtained the level of _____________ within the curriculum & guidelines of the Word Taekwondo Federation and the Taekwondo Alliance of Alberta"

Also are the logos of the (1) WTF Tae Kwon Do Associaton of Canada, (2) Alberta Tae Kwon Do Association and (3) The World Taekwondo Federation. These are not issued by our school and all testing results goes to the Alberta Tae Kwon Do Association and take anywhere from a week to two weeks before they are returned and you are awarded you new colored belt.

Now as far as Dan grading goes, I will advise as soon as that documentation arrives back from South Korea where it goes. I will then give you all of that information as that takes 3 to 6 months and it has been almost 3 months already.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315243 - 02/09/08 03:11 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Yes it sounds like you have given me an good explanation on how you do 1 steps. However, I see don't know what the purpose is. I also think that you describe a tough or hard use of techniques, which I think is good. But again, please tell me what the purpose of 1 steps are? Why do you do them? Thanks




1 steps are for self defense and to give you different techniques that are possibilities. They train you proper application of techniques learned in class from strikes to falling techniques to proper sweeping to proper distance and timing to reacting and recognizing movements to a whole other useful and practical uses.

Let me ask you, why do you do your 1,2 and 3 steps? Why do you do patterns?
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315244 - 02/09/08 03:17 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:

Dereck I second badagachagi, the WTF does not issue dan certs.




For colored belts all certificates specify, "This certifies that ________________ has obtained the level of _____________ within the curriculum & guidelines of the Word Taekwondo Federation and the Taekwondo Alliance of Alberta"
Also are the logos of the (1) WTF Tae Kwon Do Associaton of Canada, (2) Alberta Tae Kwon Do Association and (3) The World Taekwondo Federation. These are not issued by our school and all testing results goes to the Alberta Tae Kwon Do Association and take anywhere from a week to two weeks before they are returned and you are awarded you new colored belt.
Now as far as Dan grading goes, I will advise as soon as that documentation arrives back from South Korea where it goes. I will then give you all of that information as that takes 3 to 6 months and it has been almost 3 months already.




Yes it is clear that these certs are made up by some local group & that they have just used some incorrect terms or premise.

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#315245 - 02/09/08 03:42 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Posts: 2053
Quote:

Let me ask you, why do you do your 1,2 and 3 steps? Why do you do patterns?




The quick & silly answer would be, "because they are in the syllabus". LOL

But seriously, our step sparring, 1, 2 & 3 are part of pre-arranged sparring. Pre-arranged in the sense, the format, number of attacks are pre-arranged. When this series has been introduced to the student, they move to semi-free sparring at 5th gup green belt. When they reach 4th gup blue belt, they start to learn free sparring. So it is a careful progression based on several uses, or purposes, which is the focus of your question. So here is the exact answer as to the purpose of our step sparring:
3 step: to teach DISTANCE
2 step: to acquire a MIX of hand & foot techniques
1 step: to SIMULATE real combat

Now what you describe seems to be a SD technique drill. However it also seems that it may not be the most effective SD training, as you describe an intitial attack for real, but then seem to indicate that is the only attack & the attacker then just "strikes a pose". In addition, you further describe that it appears the defender is allowed to use more than 1 counter attack against someone who is no longer an opponent, but a partner who is only posing. This IMHO may also help to create a false sense of security & actually be detremental from a SD standpoint.

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#315246 - 02/09/08 03:48 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Why do you do patterns?




Dereck:
I did not want to answer this, as it may confuse the current theme of the discussion. Patterns are done as they are an important part of our Art form. They are the founder's signature so to speak. It helps set our Art apart from others. Thay are a "critical barometer in evaluating an individual's technique". We gain many benefits from pattern practice, but the purpose is to basically afford an opportunity to practice fundamental movements linked together in a set sequence.

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#315247 - 02/09/08 04:11 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Let me ask you, why do you do your 1,2 and 3 steps? Why do you do patterns?




The quick & silly answer would be, "because they are in the syllabus". LOL

But seriously, our step sparring, 1, 2 & 3 are part of pre-arranged sparring. Pre-arranged in the sense, the format, number of attacks are pre-arranged. When this series has been introduced to the student, they move to semi-free sparring at 5th gup green belt. When they reach 4th gup blue belt, they start to learn free sparring. So it is a careful progression based on several uses, or purposes, which is the focus of your question. So here is the exact answer as to the purpose of our step sparring:
3 step: to teach DISTANCE
2 step: to acquire a MIX of hand & foot techniques
1 step: to SIMULATE real combat

Now what you describe seems to be a SD technique drill. However it also seems that it may not be the most effective SD training, as you describe an intitial attack for real, but then seem to indicate that is the only attack & the attacker then just "strikes a pose". In addition, you further describe that it appears the defender is allowed to use more than 1 counter attack against someone who is no longer an opponent, but a partner who is only posing. This IMHO may also help to create a false sense of security & actually be detremental from a SD standpoint.




I'm finding it extremely hard to understand you ITF.

What you describe as 3 step and 2 step are similar to what is taught at our white belt levels so they understand as you explained and then at yellow belt free sparring is introduced and they do not have to wait till blue belt, which to me puts them a head in the game and by blue belt have an even greater understanding of sparring, distance, timing, understanding how to take a hit, etc.

Our one-steps are learned at each belt level so that they are worked on thoroughly and understood, however the more trained you are the better you will also understand this at higher belt levels. I see this no different then you explanation of your one-steps.

I've always enjoyed our conversations but I have to be honest, I'm miffed with you. To say they are not good training techniques for self defense makes me think who made you the authority on this? Are you narrow minded enough not to see their usefulness; much better then "any" pattern which I find to be a waste as there is no resistance. Also narrow minded to think that is the only means of self defense taught; it is one in many taught with most against resisting opponents. Our TKD along with the influences of BJJ and MMA only increase our self defense and I couldn't possibly list the number of techniques and applications used. I can assure you that there is no false sense of security when it comes to what is taught; the only flaws would be the people learning them and applying them and their own understanding of those techniques taught. Our one-steps are just as effective as yours and are only a very small part in the grand scheme of things.

No disrespect ITF but as of lately you have been coming off as a "know it all" and and "authority on everything" and that is the farthest from the truth. You are in the same category as the rest of us, people learning to become better at what ever we are striving for. We are all learning and we don't have all of the answers. No encyclopedia is going to answer all of the questions. Our training may be better then some but not as good as others. Certain people within those training curriculums may shine while others don't. We all have strengths and weaknesses.

I won't judge your training and make comments without actually standing there and learning in your shoes, I would expect the same from you and any others. I've said my peace.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315248 - 02/09/08 04:16 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

Yes it is clear that these certs are made up by some local group & that they have just used some incorrect terms or premise.




Yes, the local group is called the Alberta Taekwondo Federation. As far as incorrect terms or premise I will leave that for the Federation to decide as they set those standards, not random people on forums. And no piece of paper will ever replace actual training.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315249 - 02/09/08 06:11 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
badachagi Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

Yes it is clear that these certs are made up by some local group & that they have just used some incorrect terms or premise.




Yes, the local group is called the Alberta Taekwondo Federation. As far as incorrect terms or premise I will leave that for the Federation to decide as they set those standards, not random people on forums. And no piece of paper will ever replace actual training.




I think what ITFUnity is trying to say is that your color belts certs are being issued by a local body, and neither WTF/Kukkiwon is responsible for those certs. The local body is simply putting "WTF" and the logo on the certs. As I've said repeatedly, WTF does not provide certifications for rank, only for officating competitions (i.e. referees). Furtherore, Kukkiwon issues dan certificates only -- not color belt certs.

I'm not saying that what this organization is doing is wrong or that they are selling false credentials. They perpetuating the same misunderstanding that many well-intentioned and well-meaning schools and instructors are. It is very common to encounter schools that, because they teach the Tae Geuk patterns and practice WTF rules sparring, think that this means that they are "WTF members" or "WTF certified". This is a very common MISTAKE. What they really should be saying is that they practice the Kukkiwon curriculum and have Kukkiwon certified instructors. Your local WTF Association is probably a local body of schools which practice the KKW curriculum and have decided to set a common set of promotion standards for color belts (since KKW does not provide standards for color belt promotion). They, like many others, don't understand the difference between KKW and WTF, and have claimed they are issuing WTF certifications, or that they are WTF members, or whatever. None of this is true, but I doubt very seriously that they are intentionally misleading people. My own grandmaster says our school is WTF member, though I know that he's not quite mistaken and I know what he really means.

Go check the WTF website... you will see that the only entities that are members are National Governing Bodies, not individual schools or instructors. Call up WTF offices and ask them about Dan certifications. I guarantee you they will tell you to contact Kukkiwon.

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#315250 - 02/10/08 12:49 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Yes, the local group is called the Alberta Taekwondo Federation. As far as incorrect terms or premise I will leave that for the Federation to decide as they set those standards, not random people on forums. And no piece of paper will ever replace actual training.




Dereck Sir, please understand my post what not meant as a slight in any way, shape or form. I put very little value on a piece of paper. I think what is more important is that you trust the person you train with & feel proud when they say you are ready for your next step, whether it be a new belt, new gup or just a new technique or move that you are taught. I think I would have been happy if my teacher wrote out my cert on the inside of a matchbook cover. It didn't matter to me. I only learned later from my teacher, the value of having a cert signed by the founder, Gen Choi. I didn't know who he was when I joined & I only joined my school because my buddy went there.
The points I was trying to make were that the WTF does not have a curriculmn, outside of sport rules & they do not issue certs to BBs or color belts. Badachagi states it much better than I could, as I am not a KKW student or WTF player. Rest assurred that the common mistake he highlights I also made for years. I was corrected by a poster on taekwondo.net forum, that is now pretty slow, called jidokwantkd, or something like. When I saw those posts, I checked it out & verified I was wrong. I was thankful for being corrected. I am sorry that I upset you. It truly was not my intention.

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#315251 - 02/10/08 01:23 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I've always enjoyed our conversations but I have to be honest, I'm miffed with you. To say they are not good training techniques for self defense makes me think who made you the authority on this? Are you narrow minded enough not to see their usefulness; much better then "any" pattern which I find to be a waste as there is no resistance. Also narrow minded to think that is the only means of self defense taught;




I have apologized above & do it again. I have also sent a PM
with my sincere regrets that I came off that way. I can say with 100% conviction, that this was not my intention, nor is it my style. I also do not consider myself narrow minded at all. I do consider myself someone who is very limited in knowledge outside of my style of TKD.


Quote:

No disrespect ITF but as of lately you have been coming off as a "know it all" and and "authority on everything" and that is the farthest from the truth. You are in the same category as the rest of us, people learning to become better at what ever we are striving for. We are all learning and we don't have all of the answers. No encyclopedia is going to answer all of the questions. Our training may be better then some but not as good as others. Certain people within those training curriculums may shine while others don't. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I won't judge your training and make comments without actually standing there and learning in your shoes, I would expect the same from you and any others. I've said my peace.




You are 100% right. I am not a know it all! Nor do I claim to be an authority. I am simply a student who has spent my entire adult life & a bit more, some 30+ years spanning 4 decades, on diligent study on JUST 1 style of TKD, Chang Hon. That pursuit has taken me to some 30+ countries. I have little exposure to other styles & have learned via forums like this. I am sorry & will try to explain better what i was getting at.

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#315252 - 02/10/08 01:57 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

The quick & silly answer would be, "because they are in the syllabus". LOL
But seriously, our step sparring, 1, 2 & 3 are part of pre-arranged sparring. Pre-arranged in the sense, the format, number of attacks are pre-arranged. When this series has been introduced to the student, they move to semi-free sparring at 5th gup green belt. When they reach 4th gup blue belt, they start to learn free sparring. So it is a careful progression based on several uses, or purposes, which is the focus of your question. So here is the exact answer as to the purpose of our step sparring:
3 step: to teach DISTANCE
2 step: to acquire a MIX of hand & foot techniques
1 step: to SIMULATE real combat
Now what you describe seems to be a SD technique drill. However it also seems that it may not be the most effective SD training, as you describe an intitial attack for real, but then seem to indicate that is the only attack & the attacker then just "strikes a pose". In addition, you further describe that it appears the defender is allowed to use more than 1 counter attack against someone who is no longer an opponent, but a partner who is only posing. This IMHO may also help to create a false sense of security & actually be detremental from a SD standpoint.




Quote:

What you describe as 3 step and 2 step are similar to what is taught at our white belt levels so they understand as you explained





No I don't think they are described as the same. I said 3 steps teach distance. Do you emphasize distance & if so how do you measure it or insure it is done correctly? Do your 10th gups white belts do 3 step sparring alone? If they do it with a partner, then it can not be what we do. Does the attacker in 2 steps attack with a hand & foot attack?


Quote:

and then at yellow belt free sparring is introduced and they do not have to wait till blue belt, which to me puts them a head in the game and by blue belt have an even greater understanding of sparring, distance, timing, understanding how to take a hit, etc.




It has been my experience that the sooner someone free spars, the more they tend to limit themselves & build bad habits. The focus of our syllabus is to develop good BBs, not good yellow or blue belt fighters. BB is just the start for us.

Quote:

Our one-steps are learned at each belt level so that they are worked on thoroughly and understood, however the more trained you are the better you will also understand this at higher belt levels. I see this no different then you explanation of your one-steps.




Of course there is a big difference. First, it is introduced at green belt 4th gup level. Most importantly there is only 1 counter attack allowed. If not, the realism is lost, as your opponent will not stand in a pose for you to continue hitting them.

Quote:

To say they are not good training techniques for self defense.......Are you narrow minded enough not to see their usefulness; much better then "any" pattern which I find to be a waste as there is no resistance. Also narrow minded to think that is the only means of self defense taught; it is one in many taught with most against resisting opponents.




That Sir is not what I wrote. Please see above. I described it as what appeared to be a "SD drill", in terms of helping a student learn counter combos. I only said it "may not be the most effective SD training". The false sense of security is linked to the fact the defender has the option to use mutiple counter attacks & the attacker doesn't. This to me does not seem realistic, as any attacker in the street will of course continue hitting, they will not pose. IMHO limiting to 1 counter attack helps solve this conflict. Nothing more, nothing less. I realize that 1 steps are only 1 part of yours & many schools SD building. I never said that your school or methods lacked other vehicles to develop SD.

Quote:

Our one-steps are just as effective as yours and are only a very small part in the grand scheme of things.


They are different & yes only a part. However I still don't understand the purpose.

Quote:

No encyclopedia is going to answer all of the questions.
I won't judge your training and make comments without actually standing there and learning in your shoes, I would expect the same from you and any others. I've said my peace.




The point about the Encylopedia is often mistaken. I never said it had all the answers, because it does not. Rather it is a textbook that is required in most learning settings. Can you think of a class that you ever took that did not have a corresponding textbook? And didn't having text help your learning. I was not trying to judge. I was just trying to learn the how & why you did something & then offer ideas on how we do it, so you could contrast & compare, so you could use the info how you see fit. Sharing info is what I like to do. I thank this forum for allowing the opportunity.

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#315253 - 02/10/08 02:02 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Are you narrow minded enough not to see their usefulness; much better then "any" pattern which I find to be a waste as there is no resistance.




This was why I did not want to include this in the discussion. But to avoid you thinking i was ignoring your question regarding patterns i addressed it seperately, along with the statement concerning the possible confusion. Patterns to me have little to do with SD.

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#315254 - 02/10/08 09:05 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Dereck and ITFUNITY"

I love the discussion you two are having, I think all persons observing will come away with some insight as to how our different organizations are more alike than many want to concede (sparing rules and competitions aside) If we could only get the governing bodies to vent like this more! These are great competitive opinions/observations.

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#315255 - 02/10/08 02:02 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Loc: Great White North
I'm not sure I know how to respond all to this, as what I try to explain is not getting through and nor is open mindedness. I obviously cannot explain things to give them justice enough for you to understand.

We obviously disagree ITF on when free sparring should happen. At white belt the first things taught are three-step sparring followed by no contact full room sparring; at yellow belt full contact sparring is introduced. Classes will start with kicking your partner with various techniques so that you understand kicking a person and also being kicked. Nobody tries to kill anybody at that level though I find the lower belts so energized that they are trying to kill you ... I did the same at that level. Also at our white belt levels and up ground work is introduced and there is free grappling after class. Again nobody takes advantage of the other but again the lower levels will try to power through everything trying to win.

Just like your one-steps being pre-arranged so are ours. WE UNDERSTAND that there is no possible way that somebody is going to stand there to take all of those defenses however it will give the user (defender) many ideas of what can be done. I can honestly say that they work as when competing in no gi grappling tournaments and due to this training, I was able to incorporate many techniques that came naturally. And again they are not the only things we work on for self defense and do have prearranged techniques that are one strike only to vital areas. We also have other patterns such as our E-Day punching and kicking as well as patterns of working around the body to vital areas ... again understanding that you could never pull all of them off but you may get one or more. The main thing is "open mindedness" and visualizing as the more you do these things the easier they will be remember. In fact many of the wrist locks and joint manipulation taught has come in useful when grappling. If you can do any of those techniques standing up they can be done on the ground and you need to realize this and visualize that they are one and the same.

A lot more is done with self defense within class that includes sparring and not just TKD sparring. Sparring that includes stand-up to take down to submission and to ground'n pound. Learning that you have more then just your hands and feet but also knees and elbows, forearms, fingers, etc. Then at black belt things take off and 26 self defense techniques are used to for quick and vital strikes. Second Dan there are even more to learn and so on.

The one-steps we do are an excellent tool. Timing and distance are crucial. Falling skills are a must and this puts them to the test as you will be swept, tripped and yanked to the ground. Both must be prepared to be hit and hit hard; not devastating hard but hard; contact is a must especially at higher ranks. Learning that there is no such thing as blocking, they are strikes and make them count. Knowing where to strike in certain areas such as on the arm as if you strike closer to the elbow or strike to high on the arm that you will not have the desired effect. Also when striking to not over strike thus opening yourself up. Also when attacking to not lean over thus putting your head in a vital position to be hit. It teaches commitment. Your taught not to be stiff but agile especially if your are going to the ground as stiff will hurt more and you may not recover. Also understanding that it takes more then "one blow" to stop an assailant and to keep going until they are no longer a threat and you can get away. That you must commit to the attack and continue it with whatever you can and why multiple techniques are shown to give you an "idea" of what could be done. The higher your understanding the more mix and matching you can do. If somebody grabs my collars I can pull them in close enough for me to go hip to hip and toss them to the ground and while still holding that arm I can break the elbow across my knee, stomp them to the face or punch them or kick them repeatedly. Or I could have used a technique to lock up their hand and break their arm while taking them to the ground.

These are all just tools to keep you thinking and give you options. Add these to other techniques taught then your scope of understanding become even more clearer. They are tools, one of many.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315256 - 02/10/08 11:59 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Lets start with using only 1 aspect per post. Let me make it clear that I think it sounds like you train at a tough school that looks to make contact in order to have a level of realism. That I think is a good thing. I am also not saying your school does not do a good job in teaching effective SD. It certainly sounds like you guys address this, make it a priority & have the good results you expect.

SPARRING
Our sparring (& SD) is taught from day 1. It is just introduced & taught at different levels. I make no claim that any way is either better or inferior than another. What is important is that there is a logical sequence that builds someone skills in a manner most efficent to developing the goal.

The way we do it is to beak it down into 3 categories. They are pre-arranged sparring, which is further broken down to 3 categories, 3, 2 & 1 step sparring. This is followed by semi-free sparring & then finally free sparring. HooSinSul follows this, but is not called sparring. Both sparring & HooSinSul can aide a student with SD. For BBs we add model sparring, foot technique sparring & pre-arranged free sparring. We do it this way, because the founder insisted that one be well schooled in the basics, before being let loose to do it freely. Each of our types of sparring have purposes. That was what I was trying to get you to tell me. The stated purposes of your approach. He felt & I agree, that if one is let free before they have developed enough techniques & can use them effectivley, they will rely upon the few basic ones they are taught as a beginner. I see the advantage of this program. I also see what some consider as a disavantage, namely that we wait too long for the freedom to be granted. My only response is that we are developing BBs, not color belt students. We can afford to do this, as we are not a big commercial school. I have always been personally very pleased with the results. IMHO most ITF schools do not adhere as strictly to this as they have to pay the bills. That is not, nor ever was my focus. I think it is sound, as most other learning activities do something similiar, with respect to a logical progression.

It seems that your approach is different. What is more important though, is it also appears that you follow a systemized approach to help the development of the student.

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#315257 - 02/11/08 12:23 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Just like your one-steps being pre-arranged so are ours.

WE UNDERSTAND that there is no possible way that somebody is going to stand there to take all of those defenses however it will give the user (defender) many ideas of what can be done. I can honestly say that they work as when competing in no gi grappling tournaments and due to this training, I was able to incorporate many techniques that came naturally. And again they are not the only things we work on for self defense and do have prearranged techniques that are one strike only to vital areas.

The one-steps we do are an excellent tool. Also understanding that it takes more then "one blow" to stop an assailant and to keep going until they are no longer a threat and you can get away. That you must commit to the attack and continue it with whatever you can and why multiple techniques are shown to give you an "idea" of what could be done. The higher your understanding the more mix and matching you can do.




First, our 1 steps are not pre-arranged. The defender attacks with 1 technique, using all available tools & both left & right sides.

Okay it looks like the 1 steps you do are more like a combo building drill. If the attacker is limited to one attack & then must pose or become compliant, then it appears they are giving the defender a model upon which to practice combos. There is certainly nothing wrong with that, as it can help one build combos that they may like to use.

My only suggestion is that you consider the fact that if the attacker can only do 1 attack & the defender can do combos, then from the standoint of trying to mimick reality, it is less realistic. I would describe that from our syllabus as the attacker is doing 1 steps while the defender is doing free sparring. Not fair, but a good SD combo building skill. We do that in fundamental movements & semi-free sparring.

We may be arguing more semantics. But please understand that our step sparring is strictly limited to 1 counter attack. The underlying reason is that an attacker will not stand there for you to do combos. In fact, the actual reactions of the attacker will naturally effect the ability of the defender to perform the counter combos.

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#315258 - 02/11/08 09:39 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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I think you are mistaken that the attacker is there just "posing". He is trying to hit the other student it is just that the other student is "reacting" and within seconds has done the required techniques; both side are done. I'll agree that at lower belt levels it looks slower as they try to figure out the techniques however that is only a learning curve.

I think you are wrong in that only one technique could be pulled off. It is taught if you are defending that you turn the tables and become the attacker thus putting them on the defense. With commitment you drive forward and attack relentlessly thus taking them off their guard. It is very easy to get off one or more techniques and I think that it may be beneficial for you and others to take this approach otherwise those who don't continue the attack may from muscle memory only stop at one technique and then put themselves still in harms way. You say the attacker will not stand there for you to do combos but I say I'm not giving him that choice; he took it upon himself to attack me well now he is the defender and I am going to be relentless that will involve fists, elbows, knees, legs and any other means to break his will and break him. My goal is to ensure he is down and is immobile; no longer a threat. If an ambulance has to come and take his sorry ass away then I'm good with that.

Again this is only a small training tool that I enjoy and find very useful. It cannot replace actual self defense tools that involve both individuals providing resistance but is a good basis.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#315259 - 02/11/08 11:33 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Okay thank you for your reply. I think I am making headway to having you fully grasp my point. Please bear with me. It is difficult to convey complex issues that involve action in an action-less forum like this. Kindly allow me to continue by reading below & then responding after you have tried my suggestions. Thanks in advance!


Quote:

I think you are mistaken that the attacker is there just "posing". He is trying to hit the other student it is just that the other student is "reacting" and within seconds has done the required techniques;




I know you have stated they actually try to hit their partner. That is commendable & the way it should be. But if they are THEN AFTER the attack, not permitted to do anything else, but pose, they are not an opponent by definition, but a partner who is NOW acting as a model. I also have stated this can be a good drill for developing combos which you seem to agree with. Now, thats fine & I have no problem with any of it so far, especially when we both know & have stated that there remain additional training regiments in your school that appear to be in place to supplement that & build strength to correct any inherent weaknesses naturally caused by no longer having a live opponent.

Now simply try this. After the intitial strike that is trying to be landed by the attacker, have the attacker be free to do whatever they wish. I am sure you will or should find that the dynamics change & that this will effect the ability & how the combos by the defender are deployed. Please let me know how this goes.

Quote:

I think you are wrong in that only one technique could be pulled off. It is taught if you are defending that you turn the tables and become the attacker thus putting them on the defense. With commitment you drive forward and attack relentlessly thus taking them off their guard. It is very easy to get off one or more techniques and I think that it may be beneficial for you and others to take this approach otherwise those who don't continue the attack may from muscle memory only stop at one technique and then put themselves still in harms way. You say the attacker will not stand there for you to do combos but I say I'm not giving him that choice; he took it upon himself to attack me well now he is the defender and I am going to be relentless that will involve fists, elbows, knees, legs and any other means to break his will and break him. My goal is to ensure he is down and is immobile; no longer a threat. If an ambulance has to come and take his sorry ass away then I'm good with that.




Yes I follow you, but still wish for you to try what I suggest.

[quote}Again this is only a small training tool that I enjoy and find very useful. It cannot replace actual self defense tools that involve both individuals providing resistance but is a good basis.




Agreed that it can be a good tool. Just different from what I am trying to share with you.

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#315260 - 02/11/08 01:46 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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You have to understand ITF that this is set curriculum and nothing is going to change especially when this is a good training tool. What you are suggesting however is covered in free sparring and I'm not talking about TKD free sparring. I'm talking about two resisting opponents trying to defend and attack each other; from standing to ground to submission.

One of the drills we do is similar to what you are suggesting. There is a set number of techniques given to the attacker and defender and first it is done slow and with little contact. The next time both are increased and finally full out contact and resistance. This is similar to our drills such as boxer vs. grappler. Boxer is only allowed to use boxing techniques and wears 8 ounce boxing gloves. The grappler can only use grappling techniques so cannot strike or kick. Drills like these make you aware of what is missing in the fight game but also how to work on certain techniques to your advantage.

Again, our one-steps are a standardized training method and will not be changed however I can guarantee you that resistance and free flowing drills are more then covered in our curriculum and I would even be confident to say probably more then most. Think of it this way, in every system when training you always must allow your training partner ample opportunity to train various techniques so that they can understand them. If you put up full resistance all of the time then they will never get the technique off and will never understand it. For instance when we have our throwing days; you allow yourself to be thrown from both sides and then you change up so you are throwing. Later in class, usually towards the end, there is free sparring where you try to use those same techniques taught however now you are both resisting. Learn the application with no resistance, add slight resistance and then full resistance; that is the best training method available.

I also want you to understand that in one-step sparring it only takes a few seconds to do a few techniques; you make it sound like it is longer then that. To strike a punch coming in, grab his wrist and then stepping in to deliver a elbow strike to the head probably only takes a second. To strike a oncoming punch, step in and sweep their legs; and as they fall rotate their arm so that when the hit the ground their elbow is against your knee for a break and then finish with a punch to the face, a couple of seconds only. A couple of seconds "is" realistic enough especially when the attacker is not trained and is not expecting a resisting and more skilled opponent. Again I think if you stop at one technique you are selling yourself short and are ingraining a bad habit because "rarely" is one technique sufficient enough to stop an assailant; the one hit rule is more then not false and no matter how much you train you cannot rely on luck.
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#315261 - 02/11/08 03:03 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

You have to understand ITF that this is set curriculum and nothing is going to change especially when this is a good training tool. What you are suggesting however is covered in free sparring.......




I respectfully can tell you that I am not
trying to get you to change anything. I am merely trying to get you to open your mind & simply try 1 aspect, thats all. You keep replying with very sound arguements on how your training fills in any potential gaps. You are missing my point & I am sorry I have not been able to get it across better.

[quote\Again, our one-steps are a standardized training method and will not be changed however I can guarantee you that resistance and free flowing drills are more then covered in our curriculum and I would even be confident to say probably more then most.




I realize this & this is clouding the single narrow issue that I am trying to get you to see. I am sorry that I am failing with my communication attempts.

Quote:

Think of it this way, in every system when training you always must allow your training partner ample opportunity to train various techniques so that they can understand them.




yes & this is a good combo skill building drill, but lets get away from the semantics as it is confusing the issue

Quote:

I also want you to understand that in one-step sparring it only takes a few seconds to do a few techniques; you make it sound like it is longer then that. To strike a punch coming in, grab his wrist and then stepping in to deliver a elbow strike to the head probably only takes a second. To strike a oncoming punch, step in and sweep their legs; and as they fall rotate their arm so that when the hit the ground their elbow is against your knee for a break and then finish with a punch to the face, a couple of seconds only. A couple of seconds "is" realistic enough especially when the attacker is not trained and is not expecting a resisting and more skilled opponent. Again I think if you stop at one technique you are selling yourself short and are ingraining a bad habit because "rarely" is one technique sufficient enough to stop an assailant; the one hit rule is more then not false and no matter how much you train you cannot rely on luck.




This goes to the heart of my point. Please understand that I am not trying to get you to change your mind or change anything. My point is merely that if you will just try what I have suggested you may see my point. Please try if you feel so inclined. But kindly keep the debate strictly limited to what you & I describe as 1 steps, because once we bring in other training mechanisms, it just confuses the point. That point of course is the difference between a live opponent & complining partner in JUST THIS area. Maybe someone else can help clarify. Thanks

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#315262 - 02/11/08 04:02 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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ITF, I understand what you are saying and I feel that I don't need to try something separately when I think it is already being addressed in our overall training. We may not have one person attack and the other defend with "one" technique as you have described your one-steps are however there are many other things in our training that would prove as useful as this training method. However I feel that only attacking with "one" technique is limiting and if the only way trained can be detrimental.

I understand your reasoning to want to stay in the context of the one-steps for this discussion however I think we cannot as we are not comparing apples to apples as our training and ideology is different.

I feel in a way, and please forgive me if this is not true, but that you are trying to convey that your system is a better way of doing things and I don't see that as the case. I would however say that each has valid reasons however both are flawed if they are the only methods taught and that they both must be only a small part of a much larger training regiment.

As you have said, I challenge you keep an open mindedness and perhaps give these a try; and perhaps then you will see my point.
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#315263 - 02/11/08 04:06 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
Dereck Offline
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Question ITF, do you have anything within your system that teaches multiple attacks? Shows combinations of what can be used? Think of it this way, boxers (and we do this too) work on heavy bags, focus mitts and also with others in sparring working on combinations (jabs, power, uppercuts, hooks, etc.) however in application they don't always work but it gives you an incite to what "could" happen and the more you do it the more it becomes ingrained to try multiple attacks. That way when you are throwing punches you don't get stuck with just one punch as one punch doesn't win a fight, many punches coming from different angles with many with explosion and commitment.

Just trying to understand you better.
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#315264 - 02/12/08 12:01 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITF, I understand what you are saying and I feel that I don't need to try something separately when I think it is already being addressed in our overall training.




Well Sir, I see that since I can not get you try something, I can not pursue this further. You had said previoulsy that I was being narrow minded. I truly was not. What I was trying to do was just to get you too be open to trying something. Apparently you will not & that is fine. To each there own.

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#315265 - 02/12/08 12:08 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I feel that only attacking with "one" technique is limiting and if the only way trained can be detrimental.




I agree, but just to make sure you understand, attacking with 1 technique is what 1 step sparring is. The founder limits all step sparring to 1 counter attack, as in a real situation, no one will stand still & pose, while their opponent, the one they are attacking goes to town on them. The limit to the 1 counter, helps to insure the defender picks an approriate attacking tool to the correct vital spot. That is the purpose of 1 step sparring. It starts at the ground & works its way up. This is not a combo building drill. It is a protect & counter drill, so to speak. There are of course numerous other drills we use that will build on this in a realistic way.

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#315266 - 02/12/08 12:17 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I feel in a way, and please forgive me if this is not true, but that you are trying to convey that your system is a better way of doing things and I don't see that as the case. I would however say that each has valid reasons however both are flawed if they are the only methods taught and that they both must be only a small part of a much larger training regiment.

As you have said, I challenge you keep an open mindedness and perhaps give these a try; and perhaps then you will see my point.




Dereck:
Sir I have stated before & will again, there is no such desire on my part. I love these exchanges & really do love sharing in this way. I am always appreciative of how much I have learned from others.
I gave up long ago thinking my way was the best way. In fact, it was my exposue & training with the founder that helped me to realize how much I did not know & how much more I have to learn. The more I travel, the more I see how much more I have to learn. BTW, yes I have tried doing 1 steps the way you describe. In fact I did them for 14 years that way.

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#315267 - 02/12/08 12:28 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Question ITF, do you have anything within your system that teaches multiple attacks? Shows combinations of what can be used? Think of it this way, boxers (and we do this too) work on heavy bags, focus mitts and also with others in sparring working on combinations (jabs, power, uppercuts, hooks, etc.) however in application they don't always work but it gives you an incite to what "could" happen and the more you do it the more it becomes ingrained to try multiple attacks. That way when you are throwing punches you don't get stuck with just one punch as one punch doesn't win a fight, many punches coming from different angles with many with explosion and commitment.
Just trying to understand you better.




Yes of course we do. I have stated that repeatedly, but it seems to be lost as you do not want to stick with the narrow area that I was trying to discuss. We do that which you laid out above. We also do 3, 2, 1 steps, semi-free sparring, free sparring, HooSinSul, model sparring, foot technique sparring & pre-arranged free sparring in addition to drilling numerous permutations of our 3,200+ fundamental movements in all types of settings. But this is not the point & only confuses the point. JMHO

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#315268 - 02/12/08 12:46 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

.......however in application they don't always work but it gives you an incite to what "could" happen and the more you do it the more it becomes ingrained to try multiple attacks. That way when you are throwing punches you don't get stuck with just one punch as one punch doesn't win a fight, many punches coming from different angles with many with explosion and commitment.




Of course I see your point. But that is not the purpose of our 1 step sparring. The goal is to simulate combat with a live attack, using any available technique. It helps the defender to protect & make an effective counter-attack, not counter-attackS, as the real life attacker will not stand still after the 1st attack & pose for you. Now I acknowledge that it IS NOT an effective tool for building or learning combos. It can also have the effect that you state, which the defender may get it ingrained to only counter once. You however, will not acknowledge that having a defender use mutiple counters against an opponent who is no longer live, may also ingrain a false sense of security as well.

This is why the founder said 3 steps, 2 steps & 1 steps, are for beginners & come before semi-free & free sparring, as they move to an intermediate color belt level. This helps to insure bad habits are minimized & students learn the concepts that each level must absorb, while other technique development is under way. But again, this clouds the issue. I am only talking about 1 aspect of 1 step sparring.


I am bowing out respectfully, unless others want to chime in or I successful in finally getting my point across.

No one else has responded in awhile, so I am afraid we put them to
LOL

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#315269 - 02/12/08 07:55 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
RazorFoot Offline
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Actually no, I have just been enjoying the exchanges and had nothing additional to add. You two seem to have covered any point I would be trying to make from both sides.
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#315270 - 02/12/08 09:55 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: RazorFoot]
Dereck Offline
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I also enjoy the exchange ITF. Now I understand that the ITF curriculum and those that train under it have a lot of faith in the founder and his teachings, however understand that many other schools do not take this approach and my school would be one of them. We have never discussed history or politics and train with application only. Remember, much of what I train comes from TKD/Hapkido which was from my Instructor's Master; plus my TKD has influences from BJJ and MMA and the techniques are tried and true.

Quote:

The founder limits all step sparring to 1 counter attack, as in a real situation, no one will stand still & pose, while their opponent, the one they are attacking goes to town on them. The limit to the 1 counter, helps to insure the defender picks an approriate attacking tool to the correct vital spot. That is the purpose of 1 step sparring. It starts at the ground & works its way up. This is not a combo building drill. It is a protect & counter drill, so to speak. There are of course numerous other drills we use that will build on this in a realistic way.




We are not limited by the founder as you yourself are. I certainly can respect your point of view however if we take this to a realistic look, the one counter in my mind holds no value; please let me explain.

From my own sorted past of fighting when younger and into my young adult hood; even to MMA, one counter never happens. When somebody becomes the aggressor and attacks you it is usually in a barrage of multiple techniques ... whether it looks pretty or not, if trained or not. What realistically happen is most people succumb to that and are victims and then get beat down, robbed, raped, etc. You have to take that control away from the assailant and that is becoming the attacker. You "cannot" stop at one counter but have to take it to them to change the momentum and to take them off guard. This requires multiple techniques and your own barrage. You should never stop at one as that doesn't change the momentum, that still makes you a victim.

It is possible to get off more then one technique, and again for our one-steps after being punched with in a second I will have thrown multiple attacks that "are" possible.

I think that you are getting hung up on that you are able to do one counter to a vital spot and end things and that unfortunately is not realistic; it can work but more then likely it won't and why multiple attacks is far better. And again, your purpose as set by your founder for your one-steps is not the same as our purpose for our one-steps, and that is where I think the confusion is coming from and again we are not comparing apples to apples.

Again, enjoy this discussion.
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#315271 - 02/12/08 10:08 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I also enjoy the exchange ITF. Now I understand that the ITF curriculum and those that train under it have a lot of faith in the founder and his teachings, however understand that many other schools do not take this approach and my school would be one of them. We have never discussed history or politics and train with application only. Remember, much of what I train comes from TKD/Hapkido which was from my Instructor's Master; plus my TKD has influences from BJJ and MMA and the techniques are tried and true.

Quote:

The founder limits all step sparring to 1 counter attack, as in a real situation, no one will stand still & pose, while their opponent, the one they are attacking goes to town on them. The limit to the 1 counter, helps to insure the defender picks an approriate attacking tool to the correct vital spot. That is the purpose of 1 step sparring. It starts at the ground & works its way up. This is not a combo building drill. It is a protect & counter drill, so to speak. There are of course numerous other drills we use that will build on this in a realistic way.




We are not limited by the founder as you yourself are. I certainly can respect your point of view however if we take this to a realistic look, the one counter in my mind holds no value; ,,,,,,,




This is not only confusing the issue, but not at all. You still refuse to respond to my 1 narrow aspect that I wish you to address. I guess that says something. I can't figure out why you won't reply. Vert frustrating to say the least.

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#315272 - 02/12/08 10:11 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

From my own sorted past of fighting when younger and into my young adult hood; even to MMA, one counter never happens.




Sir, no one in this entire discussion ever said this, but you, as you look to avoid my question. Very frustrating indeed.

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#315273 - 02/12/08 10:15 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

We are not limited by the founder as you yourself are. I certainly can respect your point of view however if we take this to a realistic look, the one counter in my mind holds no value;.......




Niether are we. By continuing to reply this way is just avoiding my question that you still will not address & have flat out said you wouldn't even consider trying to experiemnt with in 1 small aspect of your training.

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#315274 - 02/12/08 10:22 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

It is possible to get off more then one technique, and again for our one-steps after being punched with in a second I will have thrown multiple attacks that "are" possible.




Well Sir I think if you would consider what I am saying & reply to just this point as I have asked numerous times, maybe we could move this discussion forward.

WHAT do you THINK your opponent, not use of opponent, not partner who I know tries to really hit you at 1st, but then is not allowed to continue to hit you, as they are no longer a live attacker, will be DOING while the defender counters with mutiple attacks?

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#315275 - 02/12/08 10:31 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
EarlWeiss Offline
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>>>We are not limited by the founder as you yourself are. I certainly can respect your point of view however if we take this to a realistic look, the one counter in my mind holds no value; please let me explain.<<

If you consider one element of almost any training system in isolation you can say it has little or no value. Why should a boxer jump rope or hit a speed bag? Neither simulate what happens in the ring.

Before saying a single element of training has no value it must be viewed in the context of all training elements within a system.

The Chang Hon 1 step sparring is just such an element, one of many within a system. Now, while it is, on the surface used to develop the "One technique for Victory" theory espoused by General Choi and Funakoshi before him there are some who feels the qoute is an oversimplification of this ideal.

I subscribe to the broader view that a better translation is "One opportunity for victory" .

This is different because while multiple techniques or tactics may be employed to accomplish victory, if that one opportunity presents itself where you can employ a single technique, having honed your skills thru one step sparring you can then secure victory with the single technique.

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#315276 - 02/12/08 10:35 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

I think that you are getting hung up on that you are able to do one counter to a vital spot and end things and that unfortunately is not realistic;




I agree with you, so please stop using this to avoid the issue. I never said or implied this at all. I am talking about what occurs after the 1st counter attack by the initial attacker.

Quote:

.......it can work but more then likely it won't and why multiple attacks is far better. And again, your purpose as set by your founder for your one-steps is not the same as our purpose for our one-steps, and that is where I think the confusion is coming from and again we are not comparing apples to apples.




So please Sir stop confusing the issue by injecting this. I know the purposes are different. We established that awhile back. Our purpose is to establish initial protection & concentration on just 1 effective counterattack, not because that will or should end the fight, because it might not, but to develop effectiveness in a beginner before they work with combos. Your purpose seems to be to help develop combos, which is great. Now please address my ONLY ISSUE which is:
What do you think the attacker will be doing when the defender counters with mutiple counters?

[Quote]Again, enjoy this discussion.




Yes Sir, I am also. I hope now you can reply to my 1 issue & keep it to apples only & not bringing any oranges into the conversation. I like oranges, but want to talk only apples!

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#315277 - 02/12/08 11:14 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
RazorFoot Offline
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ITFunity, are you referring to the grafting of one 1 step technique to another and the contiuation of such until you have subdued the attacker/assailant?

I can see both sides of the conversation and see that each has a benefit. When one steps are practiced properly, they should give you a viable arsenal of techniques to string together in response to a rapid succession of attacks. If practiced enough, they should be committed to muscle memory and flow when the attack begins. I think this may be what you are getting at. If I am worng, please let me know.

Dereck, I also see your point that when things get hairy and the assailant just lets loose with everything, technique goes out the window and reaction takes over. Taking the fight from your assailant by reversing the momentum through rapid, unrelenting, agressive striking and grappling is a good way to make sure you wind up last man standing.

Both argumnts have a basis in fact and both are essentially saying the same thing but from different perspectives. Once again, if I am interpretting the discussion wrong, let me know but that is how I see it. Same outcome but two different methods of getting there.

Scottie
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#315278 - 02/12/08 01:37 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

This is not only confusing the issue, but not at all. You still refuse to respond to my 1 narrow aspect that I wish you to address. I guess that says something. I can't figure out why you won't reply. Vert frustrating to say the least.




ITF I feel I have replied to this over and over. What am I missing? What don't YOU understand?

You want me to try 1 attack and 1 defense ... DONE. This is done within our system and is a part of or curriculum however unlike you we do not call it one-step sparring, it is just another training tool. Obviously you are having a hard time getting around that your one-step sparring is different then our one-step sparring; get over it already and drop the attitude because attitude is what you will get back.
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#315279 - 02/12/08 01:39 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

Sir, no one in this entire discussion ever said this, but you, as you look to avoid my question. Very frustrating indeed.




I am not avoiding your question but feel I have answered it. However you and I seem to not understand each other very well and so for our sake, what is your question and I will answer it in one thread and you will have to accept what I'm saying and try to understand it, although I feel I've answered it.
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#315280 - 02/12/08 01:41 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

Niether are we. By continuing to reply this way is just avoiding my question that you still will not address & have flat out said you wouldn't even consider trying to experiemnt with in 1 small aspect of your training.




Again I must explain that this IS trained we just don't call it one-step sparring like you do. We have several training tools that do not have names but are good training tools. Again, your one-step sparring is not our one-step sparring so stop trying to compare apples to oranges just because they are called the same name.
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#315281 - 02/12/08 01:47 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

It is possible to get off more then one technique, and again for our one-steps after being punched with in a second I will have thrown multiple attacks that "are" possible.




Well Sir I think if you would consider what I am saying & reply to just this point as I have asked numerous times, maybe we could move this discussion forward.

WHAT do you THINK your opponent, not use of opponent, not partner who I know tries to really hit you at 1st, but then is not allowed to continue to hit you, as they are no longer a live attacker, will be DOING while the defender counters with mutiple attacks?




ITF, if somebody who has ill intent were to throw a punch at me I would respond with multiple attacks and many of those attacks will be to vital areas. Here is what can happen.

1. He is stunned that somebody would attack him and doesn't know what to do. While he is thinking that he may have an emotion dump or he may become frightened himself. In any case I WILL get off multiple attacks as this only takes a few seconds and that IS practical. He then will be a bloody and incapacitative mess at my feet.

OR

2. He becomes riles and enraged and it is a full on battle royal with the fight going either his way or my way.


I should point out that this is the same outcome as if I had done "1" defensive techniques.
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#315282 - 02/12/08 01:47 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: RazorFoot]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITFunity, are you referring to the grafting of one 1 step technique to another and the contiuation of such until you have subdued the attacker/assailant?




I am not 100% sure what you mean by "grafting". If you mean doing combos as a defender with the attacker ceasing to be live & just sort of posing & becoming a model, so to speak, then yes!

Quote:

I can see both sides of the conversation and see that each has a benefit. When one steps are practiced properly, they should give you a viable arsenal of techniques to string together in response to a rapid succession of attacks. If practiced enough, they should be committed to muscle memory and flow when the attack begins. I think this may be what you are getting at. If I am worng, please let me know.




Yes & I see the benefit as well. I am only calling into question that the attacker ceases to be a live opponent. Thats it! Period!
I am only trying to have him & others can also feel free to weigh in as well, address the point of the opponent who is no longer live, but now a willing partner who is NOT ALLOWED TO CONTINUE TO FIGHT, while the defender can!
I see the way Dereck does 1 steps as being a good drill for building combos & did it that way for 14 years. I am not saying which is better, as it would depend on many factors & is really impossible to say.

Quote:

Dereck, I also see your point that when things get hairy and the assailant just lets loose with everything, technique goes out the window and reaction takes over. Taking the fight from your assailant by reversing the momentum through rapid, unrelenting, agressive striking and grappling is a good way to make sure you wind up last man standing.




Of course this is the point, however in 1 steps, the assailant allowed is not allowed to let loose, so why is the defender? Answer: because it is a good combo drill ingrains certain valuable skills! But what about the reverse side of the coin & what that ingrains, namely, no longer having a live opponent. Now I knwo there are many ways to handle, address, correct & make up for this. However, that is not what I am trying to have addressed, which is, the now posing model who acts as a partner, assisting the drill, rather than being a true opponent.
Quote:



Quote:

Both argumnts have a basis in fact and both are essentially saying the same thing but from different perspectives. Once again, if I am interpretting the discussion wrong, let me know but that is how I see it. Same outcome but two different methods of getting there.
Scottie




You Sir are right & close to grasping my point. Hopefully I have help clarify what I am trying to get a response to, limited to the 1 narrow area of difference, without bringing into the conversation OTHER drills that supplement this, as I know that are many that do that effectively & both Dereck & I have given examples of them. Thanks!

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#315283 - 02/12/08 01:59 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

Of course this is the point, however in 1 steps, the assailant allowed is not allowed to let loose, so why is the defender? Answer: because it is a good combo drill ingrains certain valuable skills! But what about the reverse side of the coin & what that ingrains, namely, no longer having a live opponent. Now I knwo there are many ways to handle, address, correct & make up for this. However, that is not what I am trying to have addressed, which is, the now posing model who acts as a partner, assisting the drill, rather than being a true opponent.




Again ITF, this is a training tool. With many of the things we do in class, we train drills using tools and later we take those same tools and put them to the test. We do have drills where the attacker can continue the attack and the defender tries multiple attacks. We will start out with light contact and build from that to a point where it can get fairly aggressive. Remember, it is self defense so why not give all of the tools to the defender and not limited them. Being the attacker is easy, we are not teaching attacking we are teaching self defense.

I want you to understand I am not avoiding what you are proposing but trying to make you understand that this cannot all be summed up in discussing one-steps when we do not do the same ones. Nor do I know all that you do for training nor do you know all that I do for training. For all we know we cover many of the same things however call them different things.

I admit reading your posts have angered me even more and I am lashing out back at you as much as I feel you are lashing out at me. Please forgive me but obviously neither of us can make the other understand so I will take my leave for the moment to calm down so that when we do discuss anything again I can do it in a more calm and collective manner.

Again, your method for one-steps of one attack and one defense is covered in our curriculum. I am not avoiding this as I feel that this is already dealt with.


Edited by Dereck (02/12/08 02:01 PM)
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#315284 - 02/12/08 02:13 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITF I feel I have replied to this over and over. What am I missing? What don't YOU understand?
You want me to try 1 attack and 1 defense ... DONE. This is done within our system and is a part of or curriculum however unlike you we do not call it one-step sparring, it is just another training tool. Obviously you are having a hard time getting around that your one-step sparring is different then our one-step sparring; get over it already and drop the attitude because attitude is what you will get back.




No Sir, I think I have understood what you are saying. I even acknowledge that I mostly agree & have even done them the same way. I am trying not to get bogged down in the semantics of the labels & have repeatedly ask others to refrain as well, as it continues to cloud the issue. I have also asked you to respond simply on the 1 issue of the attacker no longer being an actual attacker, WITHOUT going to the numerous other effective drills that you & me employ. I am sorry that you either won't respond or don't understand what I am trying to get you to address. That is my fault, if I can not communicate more clearly my point. So I am sorry for that & sorry that you think I have an attitude. So since you have not responded to what I can no longer think of any other way to express it, I & am

There are apparent strengths & weaknesses in probably any type of training. I also think no one training regiment or system is better than another, nor I am trying to say that now. It just seems to me, there are downsides to no longer having a live opponent. Since you have not addresses or acknowledged that, I can only assume that you see no down side. I think that any good school, would use the totality of their training regiment to address all weaknesses. I think that your's does, based upon what you have relayed here in this forum. But that of course misses the point, as I was only trying to get you to see what I think may be a possible shortcoming. You don't & I guess thats more than okay. I certainly don't want to have my attempts to come across in any negative way, as that has not been my intent or my desire. I am sorry that you have come to that conclusion.

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#315285 - 02/12/08 02:59 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
RazorFoot Offline
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Just for clarity, the term I used before, grafting, implies using multiple techniques grouped together, one after the other to subdue an attacker who is constantly attacking.

The opponent stays "live". You throw a right straight punch, I parry and counter using a certain one step. You react differently than how I anticipated so now I use a different one step to which you react differently to again than expected so I add a technique from a different one step until I am completely in control of the opponent or have an avenue to flee.

"Grafting - Is the combining of several principles within the flow of a single action. For example a strike may start with a hammering motion, but conclude with a thrusting action without disturbing the natural flow of the executed move. The term also refers to combining self-defense techniques without disruption in their completed or uncompleted state."

Hope this helps.
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#315286 - 02/12/08 03:33 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: RazorFoot]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Just for clarity, the term I used before, grafting, implies using multiple techniques grouped together, one after the other to subdue an attacker who is constantly attacking.
The opponent stays "live". You throw a right straight punch, I parry and counter using a certain one step. You react differently than how I anticipated so now I use a different one step to which you react differently to again than expected so I add a technique from a different one step until I am completely in control of the opponent or have an avenue to flee.




Yes that is what I thought you meant. I didn't realize that your opponent stayed "live". It sounds like a good drill. However, where Dereck & I can't get together on is acknowledging the down side of no longer having a live opponent. I see the downside & offer ways to correct or build, via other drills. He doens't seem to want to acknowledge the down side, even though he offers some good drills to correct or build.

My only point remains that there is a downside to not having a live opponent & I acknowledge that.

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#315287 - 02/12/08 04:14 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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ITF, you obviously haven't read anything I've said then because you have stated just the opposite.

There is live training, more live training then there is not. We grapple a lot; that is live training. We spar TKD Olympic style; that is live training. We spar from stand-up to take down to submission; that is live training. The other stuff is simple training tools leading to this. Our one-steps like countless of other drills we use are tools to be able to do these type of live drills.

For instance last night our class began with a rigorous amount of conditioning drills. Last night was meant to drain us of everything but to teach us to keep going. After conditioning we went over punching drills that include 5 sets of punching combos with one set high, one set low, one set upper cut and then flurries. We then broke off into groups of three. One person held focus mitts and one person but on smaller leather gloves. For one minute your did punching and then when the minute was up you laid on the ground while the third person's job was to hold you down and you had to try and stand back up. It was full on grappling for 1 minute and then you stood back up and did the punching. This was done back to back for 4 rounds and when it was done you were burned out. Then it was the next persons turn and you held the focus mitts which were rather difficult as you were tired from just having your turn. When that turn was done the last person did it and you were the guy grappling on the ground trying to hold the person down.

Again this was drill that had live components in it. In many cases then we stay after class and put it all together in a stand-up to take down to submission or just free grapple from our knees. There is plenty of live training drills and live training by sparring.

Without live training then you are only going through the motions and will never grasp what it is like to have to put yourself out there. You want to talk about live training then you need to read and understand this has never been an issue for our training and is covered; but then you would have to look beyond your nose to do this!
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#315288 - 02/12/08 04:52 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

However, where Dereck & I can't get together on is acknowledging the down side of no longer having a live opponent. I see the downside & offer ways to correct or build, via other drills. He doens't seem to want to acknowledge the down side, even though he offers some good drills to correct or build.

My only point remains that there is a downside to not having a live opponent & I acknowledge that.




Let me ask you this ITF. In your throwing classes do you provide total resistance or do you allow yourself to be thrown so you can work on both your falling skills but also so your opponent can work on his throwing skills. Or perhaps you don't have days like this and maybe the example of sparring would be better. Do you allow our partner to kick you to try techniques out while you practice taking kicks and then switch or do you provide total resistance and not allow them to kick you?

Remember we are talking training tools. We allow things to be done so we can understand them and work with them so they are ingrained into our thinking. Then we can put that together into live training by both resisting. Do you understand this better now? One-steps are a training tool and later you put them together in live training.

All techniques must be nursed from learning to training to applying. You must understand and use with no resistance, light resistance, medium resistance and then full resistance. You must do each level with each learning tool; you must crawl before you walk and walk before you run. In your case of finding my one-steps inferior, this means to me you have not grasped this and do not understand though you seem to think that 1 attack and 1 defense is live training when that is the farthest from the truth.
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#315289 - 02/12/08 04:57 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITF, you obviously haven't read anything I've said then because you have stated just the opposite.[/qoute]

Sorry you feel that. I have read everything & in it all, there is not 1 response to the sole aspect I wish you to address. Just see below, in your own words, how you still are not replying to the narrow area of do you see a downside in the lack of an opponent, in what you call your 1 steps. That Sir is a simple question. Either yes or no. If yes, then you can elaborate on the many ways you have to supplement that.

Quote:

There is live training, more live training then there is not. We grapple a lot; that is live training. We spar TKD Olympic style; that is live training. We spar from stand-up to take down to submission; that is live training. The other stuff is simple training tools leading to this. Our one-steps like countless of other drills we use are tools to be able to do these type of live drills.




Yes & what I am talking about is your tool that you call 1 steps. So Ithe will repeat my question: Is there any downside to not having an alive attack after the initial attack?
yes or no?
Ball is in your court!

Quote:

There is plenty of live training drills and live training by sparring.




great, but I am not talking about them
Again, the same question: Do you see any downside to not having a live opponent after the initial attack in your 1 steps? yes or no

Quote:

Without live training then you are only going through the motions and will never grasp what it is like to have to put yourself out there. You want to talk about live training then you need to read and understand this has never been an issue for our training and is covered; but then you would have to look beyond your nose to do this!




Sorry for your response. It is great that you have live training. I also concur this is a must for a good school. Now I again ask the same simple question: Do you see any downside to no longer having a live opponent after the initial attack? yes or no
Thank you kindly for your perservance. My apologies to you & any other readers if I am boring anyone by asking the same question numerous times.

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#315290 - 02/12/08 05:04 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

In your case of finding my one-steps inferior, this means to me you have not grasped this and do not understand though you seem to think that 1 attack and 1 defense is live training when that is the farthest from the truth.




I have never said that they were inferior. I challenge you to find those words. In fact, I have said they, your way of doing 1 steps is a good drill. I have added that even though I see a possible downside to it, your complete training regiment, as you have explained it, fills gaps & that is a great thing. I will go one step further, your drills may even be better than mine, especially for what you to accomplish. I will again repeat my question: do you see any downside at all to no longer having a live opponent after the initial attack? yes or no

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#315291 - 02/12/08 05:06 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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No, I do not think there is a downside to this train; NONE WHAT SO EVER. I do however think if this was the only training that yes it would be but in the context of our curriculum that is is only a positive. Obviously since you cannot grasp this drill and what it can provide as an effective training tool then I won't try to waste any more time trying to explain to you as you are too narrow minded.

I do however see a downside to training only 1 attack and 1 defense because that is not realistic. However if this is trained with other tools in a curriculum then it can be a positive. Any tools used to work to one goal are useful but alone they are not.

So again, "NO" I see absolutely no downfall to this training. Does that answer your question? Does this suffice your thinking? Does it not make is so because the founder said it isn't or it isn't written in your encyclopedias?

Am I angered? Yes. Am I lashing out? Yes. I have answered you over and over but because I am not telling you what you want to hear you don't seem to be listening.
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#315292 - 02/12/08 05:15 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Let me ask you this ITF. In your throwing classes do you provide total resistance or do you allow yourself to be thrown so you can work on both your falling skills but also so your opponent can work on his throwing skills. Or perhaps you don't have days like this and maybe the example of sparring would be better. Do you allow our partner to kick you to try techniques out while you practice taking kicks and then switch or do you provide total resistance and not allow them to kick you?{/quote]

This is not what I am talking about. It only confuses the issue. Kindly stick to my 1 point.

Quote:

Remember we are talking training tools.






No, I am only talking about 1 tool, your 1 steps.
thats it.

Quote:

One-steps are a training tool and later you put them together in live training.




Of course they are. Now do you see any downside to the lack of a live opponent? yes or no

Quote:

All techniques must be nursed from learning to training to applying. You must understand and use with no resistance, light resistance, medium resistance and then full resistance. You must do each level with each learning tool; you must crawl before you walk and walk before you run.




Of course it does. Do you really think that I don't understand this? Now what does that have to do with my question? Its really a simple one, yes or no. It seems like you do see a downside, as you make a strong case for building on this tool, but won't acknowldege any downside.

The question remains unanswered.......

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#315293 - 02/12/08 05:23 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

No, I do not think there is a downside to this train; NONE WHAT SO EVER. I do however think if this was the only training that yes it would be but in the context of our curriculum that is is only a positive. Obviously since you cannot grasp this drill and what it can provide as an effective training tool then I won't try to waste any more time trying to explain to you as you are too narrow minded.

I do however see a downside to training only 1 attack and 1 defense because that is not realistic. However if this is trained with other tools in a curriculum then it can be a positive. Any tools used to work to one goal are useful but alone they are not.

So again, "NO" I see absolutely no downfall to this training. Does that answer your question? Does this suffice your thinking? Does it not make is so because the founder said it isn't or it isn't written in your encyclopedias?

Am I angered? Yes. Am I lashing out? Yes. I have answered you over and over but because I am not telling you what you want to hear you don't seem to be listening.




Thank you Sir for finally answering, even though you answered with more than 1 answer. I am also sorry that you are angry & lashing out at me. Since you don't see a downside I think we have taken this as far we can. Sorry for getting you angry. I don't understand why posting on a BB can get someone angry. Please understand it was never my intent. I am also sorry you took it that way.

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#315294 - 02/12/08 05:51 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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ITF, I am sorry too.

I truly feel that I was continually answering your question and that you just weren't getting it. I believe that any training cannot be defined by one tool and has to be defined by the overall curriculum. Understand I referenced other techniques to show a similarity only in what I was trying to get across. Also please understand I do believe whole heartedly that multiple attacks are a must and many techniques can be pulled off in a second or so; and our one-steps are possible against a less skilled person or you take advantage of the precious time you have to react to a situation. These same skills work in other situation such as if somebody were to grab my lapel, the amount of time to grab their wrist and to sweep them to the ground while at the same time keeping my grasp on their arm and then breaking it against my knee; only a few seconds and possible. Of course the element of surprise is best and you must be precise in your technique; and why these are trained. Tools like this give you "things that can be done" but don't mean the all can be done. It keeps your mind open to possibilities and the more they are done the easier they will get.

Not to stray this but I will use another example in our training. We practice the guillotine with an unresisting opponent so they know what it feels like when it is on and you know how to apply it. We do this from standing, on our knees and on the ground from their back and from our back; because a guillotine is a guillotine no matter what position. Then we work with resistance and it is even harder to do especially as they are expecting it. You are encouraged to use these skills when free rolling not just on this day but other days, and even on self defense days. I recently joined Judo to supplement my training and while grappling with a brown belt his head was in the position and I put him in the guillotine, took him to my back and wrapped my legs around him tapping him out within a second. Because we had practiced this drill from no resistance to light to full I am able to understand this technique and see it when it presents itself and able to apply it. I feel the same way with our one-steps. And again as noted much earlier, in a grappling competition I was able to do most of One-Step #3 that involved grabbing of the wrist, stepping in and then sweeping my opponent. The only things missing were the strike of the punch in the beginning and the elbow break to my knee plus a punch in the face; though if it was self defense I felt I could have easily performed those as well.

Again I'm sorry we did not understand each other and I hope that this doesn't ruin any further discussions in the future.
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#315295 - 02/13/08 01:31 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Well I think I understood you from early on. If you review our posts, you will even see that I repeated your points. It was me that was not able to get you to grasp or respond to my 1 point that I was trying to get you to address.

I always look forward to any exchange of info & opportunites to kick around ideas. It is a sign of my empty life. LOL

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#315296 - 02/13/08 06:39 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
RazorFoot Offline
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I appreciate that the exchange has stayed civil even though there were clearly periods of frustration and misunderstanding. Thank you gentleman.
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#315297 - 04/03/08 12:18 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

As for one-steps, I wasn't saying they should be the same but at standardization would be a good idea, you can at least agree with that coming from an ITF school.




No way, no how, never!
The ITF 1 steps are not standardized. The way they start is. For example, both attacker & defender stand i/f/o each other, in a pararell ready stance, at a distance pre-determined by the attacker, depending on the attack to be used. The attack is done from this position, without going back into a walking stance with low block & attacks with any & all attacks are allowed, not just a punch with the right forefist. You can only do 1 attack & 1 counterattack. There are examples of this in the Encylopedia, but they are just that. Our 1 steps are a SD drill, where the attacker must try to hit the defender, with all available attacks. In the case of all step sparring, 1, 2 & 3 steps, as a student advances, the attacks should be more spontaneous & realistic.




We differ on this then. I feel that if you are under one banner then there should be a standardization of what is taught from one school to the next so that when tested you can test anywhere or train anywhere; much like the ITF can.

Our one-steps the two stand across from each other with one attacking and one defending. The defender uses multiple defenses starting with easy ones such as block/striking the punch while at the same time punching them in the jaw. The higher you get the more intense they get including sweeping, tripping, takedowns, arm breaks, knees, etc. Number 3 would be a block/strike to the attacker's punching arm, while punching them in the jaw, then grabbing the wrist, stepping into the opponent so your hips are parallel, then pull wrist and sweep with your leg; when they hit the ground you turn the arm so their elbow is against your knee to simulate a break of the arm and then you punch them again in the face. At colored belt there are 9. At 1st Dan then you learn 26 self defense moves, at 2nd Dan you learn more and so on.

The attacker is not just throwing their arm out but are trying to punch the defender in the jaw and is stressed the higher you get up. If you don't move then you get hit and you learn really fast.

All one-steps are for self defense.



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#315298 - 04/03/08 02:15 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
dicen Offline
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Posts: 57
Ok lets change topics a bit, I have seen one steps both from many TKD schools, showing black belts doing natobans(sp?) and jumping spinning hook kicks in one steps.

1) Who here would attempt a natoban or a jumping spinning hook kick in a SD situation?

2) Give a reason why you would or wouldn't.

3) PLz keep it civil :P

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#315299 - 04/03/08 04:25 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: dicen]
Dereck Offline
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1) Keep to the basics; basics win most fights; I would not use this.

2) I would never try to pull of something fancy let alone turn my back on my opponent for a fraction of a second or leave the ground; far too risky.

3) Very civil.
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#315300 - 04/03/08 05:06 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: dicen]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

1) Who here would attempt a natoban or a jumping spinning hook kick in a SD situation?
2) Give a reason why you would or wouldn't.




First I wouldn't because I can't, don't have that talent!

Now #1 above. I think some students may. Isn't the concensus here that we react the way we are trained? So if you see them doing spinning jump kicks, I would venture a guess that they would attempt to try it. Hopefully other areas of their training & the guidance of a qaulified instructor, this will be corrected. Now we do fancy stuff, but they are not in a drill we call 1 steps. It would be by BBs & its purpose would to be just that, FANCY, for demo & shows. We call that model sparring, as the attacker isn't a live opponent, but simply a model posing for the defender so they can look good showing off fancy techniques in a demo type setting.
#2 above, in addition to the lack of talent, I wouldn't try it as it is not realistic for SD, IMHO

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#315301 - 04/06/08 07:13 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: ITFunity]
dicen Offline
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Posts: 57
what about doing a spinning back kick? Sure you turn your back on your opponent but its a very powerful kick that is you land it, the attacker will be badly hurt.

Competition wise same thing, a spinngin back kikc can break the ribs and knock you out of the competition.

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#315302 - 04/07/08 08:17 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: dicen]
VDJ Offline
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Quote:

what about doing a spinning back kick? Sure you turn your back on your opponent but its a very powerful kick that is you land it, the attacker will be badly hurt.

Competition wise same thing, a spinngin back kikc can break the ribs and knock you out of the competition.




Yes and your leg can also be caught and now you're vulnerable in 2 ways, standing on one foot trying to keep your balance with your back to the attacker. A round kick can break a rib just as nicely as a back kick can. Don't get me wrong, I like the spinning back kick and it is a very powerful kick, but on the street, Uh uh. The ONLY sceneario I can envision a back kick is if the attack is originating from behind me and it would be a plain old back kick, no spinning!

VDJ

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#315303 - 04/08/08 12:58 PM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
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Nothing fancy just stick to the basics. Even in MMA fights the basics are what win most fights.
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#315304 - 04/11/08 09:20 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: VDJ]
Fruitloopy Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

what about doing a spinning back kick? Sure you turn your back on your opponent but its a very powerful kick that is you land it, the attacker will be badly hurt.

Competition wise same thing, a spinngin back kikc can break the ribs and knock you out of the competition.




Yes and your leg can also be caught and now you're vulnerable in 2 ways, standing on one foot trying to keep your balance with your back to the attacker. A round kick can break a rib just as nicely as a back kick can. Don't get me wrong, I like the spinning back kick and it is a very powerful kick, but on the street, Uh uh. The ONLY sceneario I can envision a back kick is if the attack is originating from behind me and it would be a plain old back kick, no spinning!

VDJ




I've used spining backkicks in the street with great effect. It all depends!!!
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T. White

http://www.oshawamartialarts.com

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#315305 - 04/11/08 09:46 AM Re: Does any one here train in WTF Tae Kwon Do [Re: dicen]
Fruitloopy Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 67
Loc: The Great White North
Quote:

Ok lets change topics a bit, I have seen one steps both from many TKD schools, showing black belts doing natobans(sp?) and jumping spinning hook kicks in one steps.

1) Who here would attempt a natoban or a jumping spinning hook kick in a SD situation?

2) Give a reason why you would or wouldn't.

3) PLz keep it civil :P




Any technique has a time and a place! Whether or not a technique is effective or not depends on how well it is executed and the timing and distancing as well as! It all depends.

Check this out ...

Flying Leg Sissor

Many years ago (in the 80's) this takedown (the flying leg sissor) was practiced often at my instructor's school. We used to spar with it and utilizing it. This day and age most would say that it could NEVER be pulled off! But yet, Here we have it on video, in a major mma event, all against a top fighter! Hmmmmm
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T. White

http://www.oshawamartialarts.com

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