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#314784 - 01/13/07 10:11 PM Your a member of the jury
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Imagine you view footage: one man is constantly moving into the personal space of another, his body language is aggressive and domineering. the other man is backing up with his hands raised in as passive posture. After a moment the second man suddenly strikes the aggressive one with the heel of his palm straight into his chin, knocking him off his feet. The striker quickly backs away moving off camera.

There are witnesses most of them say there was an argument and that guy knocked the other down. but one or two of them said they heard the man, who struck, say several times that he didn't want to fight.

You're a member of the jury, keeping in mind reasonable doubt, do you vote the man guilty of assault, or do you except his claim the he acted preemptively in self defence.
I'm just curious as to the results.

Feel free to remain anonymous, but please be honest in your choice.
.
guilty or not guilty of assault
Only one choice allowed


Votes accepted starting: 01/13/07 10:09 PM
View the results of this poll.


Edited by drgndrew (01/13/07 10:15 PM)
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#314785 - 01/13/07 10:25 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
I voted not guilty. I am a bit biased, but from what the witnesses said and what is shown... the second man was defending himself.

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#314786 - 01/14/07 07:33 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Looks like you are getting the results which could be statistically expected on an MA forum. It might be more interesting, and accurate to ask the same question of the 'general public' rather than on a MA forum as there will be a tendency towards less bias.

You know my thoughts anyway

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#314787 - 01/14/07 08:24 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Interesting poll, Drew. I admit with my SD training and the evidence as presented, I would vote "not guilty". That might change if -

* I didn't know anything about SD

* Lawyers or witnesses seemed to prove otherwise.
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#314788 - 01/14/07 10:14 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Midnightcrawler]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Thanks for the responses so far.

More information would be needed and provided in an actual court case, but Base your judgement on just the info provided, it is true that in an actual court case you will be presented with a couple of hours of testimony. But I thought I'd save you from that.

Quote:

Looks like you are getting the results which could be statistically expected on an MA forum. It might be more interesting, and accurate to ask the same question of the 'general public' rather than on a MA forum as there will be a tendency towards less bias.

You know my thoughts anyway

MC.




exactly what I thought
so I've posted it on 3 other SD/MA forums on a dog breeders forum, an aussie car forum and the Traci Harding "Trazling" site (fantasy/scifi readers may know who that is)

let you know what happens
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#314789 - 01/15/07 12:29 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Voted not guilty, he warned the attacker twice and felt he was going to be assaulted, a threatning situation.

I have jury duty 2/26/07 !!
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#314790 - 01/15/07 02:27 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: schanne]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Not guilty. Firstly, he backed off. Secondly, he put up a fence, indicating he did not want a confrontation. Thridly, he stated (by some accounts) that he did not want to fight. Fourthly and most importantly he did not indicate that he wanted to fight or harm his opponent by continuing to fight after the initial strike. If he had wanted to fight or harm his opponent, he would have kicked him while he was lying on the floor. Finally, he left the scene after the incident, indicating that he was concerned primarily about his personal safety and not about causing harm to other people.

I want to see the results of this poll when you get them back from the other forums.
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#314791 - 01/15/07 02:54 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
Eternal_Student Offline
Member

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 59
I have heard from many a martial arts instructor that you should ALWAYS loudly yell out "I don't want to fight" when in an altercation (in order to get the witnesses to report this in the event of an actual fight). I should also note that a bully who starts fights could do the same thing (so, saying "I don't wanna fight is NOT always definitive when assessing one's true intentions).

In order to vote on this fact pattern, I need more info (such as whether either of those involved has a history of violent acts/ fights, the level of fight training the striker has- is he a martial arts master, where he may have had more options other than a palm-heel strike, and the amount of damage done to the other party)

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#314792 - 01/15/07 03:13 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Eternal_Student]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Bear in mind that during an altercation, we can not expect even the most experienced martial arts master to have the time to weigh the level of force required precisely. Hence, some leeway should be given to account for the threatening nature of the situation. In UK self defense law, the general principle is:

Quote:

If there has been an attack so that defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken.




http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section5/chapter_c.html#14
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#314793 - 01/15/07 05:14 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
If this case ended up in a court room, then the man defending must have seriously injured or killed the aggressor. If your pre-emptive strike leaves no long lasting effects, you won't be in a court room. So don't kick out their knee, and don't punch them in the throat. If your trapped with no where to go, and the aggressor is not responding to verbal communication, a groin strike or a front kick to the stomach to gain access to safety would suffice. You would never see a court room with a jury.
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If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#314794 - 01/15/07 05:42 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Dedicated1]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

...You would never see a court room with a jury.




It really depends on whether the person struck tries to press charges or if the incident is reported to the police as a fight by bystanders. Even a non-lethal strike can be taken as assault. As always, the law has plenty of grey area.
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#314795 - 01/15/07 09:29 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
It certainly depends (regardless of how some of you said you would vote) on how convincing your witnesses, complainant and defendant are. There might be someone who you are inclined to side with but their courtroom demeanor may push you the other way.

The truth is only half of it.

p.s. I didn't vote.


Edited by Fletch1 (01/15/07 09:31 PM)
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#314796 - 01/15/07 11:46 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Fletch1]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
hey guys

Don't get to carried away what if and more info etc, only from what is provided what would you vote.

Obviously this is a very simplified "case", real court will provide various arguments for and against and the judge will provide an overview of the laws being decided upon, and any other definitions that are required to perform your task as a Jury.

Basically all we have is the silent footage. It's good that we are bringing up things that will/could effect the decision, it broadens all of our knowledge bases and offers much food for thought. but for the actual vote just work of the video evidence.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

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#314797 - 01/16/07 12:30 AM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
IRKguy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 56
I voted self defense because I have seen a man in court found not guilty of assault after slashing a man eight times with a knife in a similar situation. His attorney argued that the eight slashes were all done in one second (and demonstrated it with a pen--many juries would consider each slash a separate act without the demonstration) and were done while retreating, not advancing. The knifer continued to retreat and did not do what an assailant would do--take the easy kill in front of him. Once the guy stopped advancing, the knifer ran away. The jury decided that he was acting in self-defense. This was not a middle-aged Causasian in a three-piece suit with a Swiss Army knife. This was the kind of knifer juries love to convict: young and a minority. He was found not guilty. However, his lawyer was good and the knife was legal for carry. I think the constant backward motion was a deciding factor, but you can never know what a jury will do.

BTW, a verbal threat is an assault in most states, so if there is audio on the hypothetical video, the striker might have a better case for self defense. Saying you don't want to fight is one thing. Being threatened with witnesses present is another. Of course, these things tend to happen in bars and witnesses tend to disappear.

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#314798 - 01/16/07 08:59 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: IRKguy]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
IRKguy,

Why on Earth didn't the guy without the knife run like the damn wind? I would have voted the same as the jury, if only on the basis that the guy with the knife was retreating, or to put it another way trying to get the hell out of there.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#314799 - 01/18/07 01:23 AM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I voted defense.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#314800 - 01/18/07 02:09 AM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Ok time for some results.

SD forums
forum -- guilty No/% -- not guity No/% -- TOTAL NO OF VOTEs

Aussie car -- 5/71% -- 2/28% -- 7

dog forums -- 1/14.% -- 6/86% -- 7

Trazling --- 2/50% -- 2/50% -- 4

Subtotal -- 8/44% -- 10/56% -- 18


sd/ma Forums
forum -- guilty No/% -- not guity No/% -- TOTAL NO OF VOTEs

Senshido -- 1/6% -- 14/93% -- 15

SP.com -- 1/5% -- 16/94% -- 17

fightingarts-- 1/4% -- 23/96% -- 24

Subtotal -- 3/5% -- 53/95% -- 56


total -- 11/15% -- 63/85% -- 74



Legal considerations

Reasonable doubt= you must find some one guilty beyond reasonable doubt

Reasonable force= you may use reasonable force to prevent harm occurring to yourself or another

Preemptive strike= you do not have to wait to be physically attacked before acting in defence, providing you have a honest and reasonable expectation that an act of violence is about to occur to you. ie it is legal to preemptively strike someone whom you honestly and reasonably believe is about to harm you.

Excessive force*= Force used must parallel the danger incurred; force must be proportionate to the force used or danger presented; force must be equal to or less then the attackers.
* excessive force is not part of Australian law as it is considered in the reasonable force test, but i have included it as many countries do have this in part or full and many people consider it a test for reasonableness.

Reasonable is defined as what a person of the community would consider reasonable given the situation and circumstances (including location, level of intimidation or levels of aggression etc ) and likely state of mind of the person in question.

There may also be other laws involved but these are the basic ones

Any thoughts on the results??
_________________________
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www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
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#314801 - 01/18/07 06:22 AM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Good morning Drew. (11:12 with me)

Surprised that the 'general public' would overall be quite that generous. Although in fairness the results from the MA/SD forums was to be expected. Incidentally, the only forum which I voted in was this one, which must mean that there are at least two other MAist's who think along the same lines as me, or have arrived at the same conclusions as me.

Good of you to put that together for us. Thank you.

Regards.

MC.
_________________________
God only knows; Really.

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#314802 - 01/18/07 08:05 AM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Midnightcrawler]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Interesting and understandable results, it would be nice to get results from a larger number of participants though perhaps I will repost your thread on a few other forums myself.

I would particularly be interested to see whether there are any forums specifically relating to criminal law which we could post this on.

Thank you for the update.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/18/07 08:06 AM)
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#314803 - 01/18/07 11:11 AM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Drgndrew

How is/was assault defined? Was more testimony presented than merely the video one assumes?

J

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#314804 - 01/18/07 11:47 AM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Drew -

Thanks very much for posting those polls and tabulating the results. Very interesting. I was a bit suprised how close the general public viewed those scenarios compared to martial artists - although I shouldn't be.

Starts to make me understand some of the idiotic jury results I have seen over the years.

Great job!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#314805 - 01/18/07 11:22 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Midnightcrawler]
IRKguy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 56
MC:
The guy without the knife didn't run for two reasons: he was angry, drunk, stupid, and aggressive, and he didn't see the knife until the trial had started. Maybe that's five reasons. Anyway, if I were defending my life and had a knife on me, the attacker would never see the knife either unless I left it in him. A threat is a gift to the enemy. The difference between me and the defendant is that in my case the state's witness wouldn't see the knife in court either. It would be in a river or a dumpster.

However, it could have gone another way. I've seen a jury convict a man of aggrivated assault for breaking a man's arm with a baseball bat and then running away. He broke the man's arm because it that arm was holding a machete that the state's witness was swinging at people while the state's witness' wife was throwing bottles at the defendant's friends. Of course, the defendant had an MS13 tattoo on his forehead, so that may have influenced the jury.

The definition of assault almost doesn't matter when you are facing a jury. Juries do strange things. When you face a judge, you are facing the law of your state. When you face a jury, you are dealing with what 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty think is a reasonable way to behave in your county. In the machete matter, one question that came up was how close the nearest baseball diamond was. One way to look good for a jury long before any SD situation occurs is to live a normal life. Just seeming like a decent person rather than a thug makes a huge difference. Also, think about what weapons you carry. Do any of them seem unnecessarily ugly or strange? If you zap someone with pepper spray, your odds will be much better than if you knock him out with chucks. If you slash someone with a Buck knife in the South, your odds will be much better than if you whip out a balisong or gravity knife, though with practice a Buck knife is faster than either of those. Juries are not rational, and my vote took that into account.

BTW, if you warn him that you have a knife, you have threatened him, which is already assault. If you even try to cut him after that, it is aggrivated assault with a deadly weapon. If you show it to him, you are brandishing, another felony. If you just whip it out and get slashy, you are defending yourself in a panic situation, if you have the right lawyer, which this guy had.

Your milage may vary.

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#314806 - 01/19/07 02:23 AM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Ronin1966]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
Quote:

Hello Drgndrew

How is/was assault defined? Was more testimony presented than merely the video one assumes?

J




This was purely a hypothetical scenario, any similarity between it and another real life or fictional is purely coincidental. Do they still put that on the end of movies?

The definition of assault can vary from state to state and even within the law of the state there will be different kinds of assault so it may vary depending where you are and what kind of assault is being charged. One of the reasons I didn't provide a specific definition or any more info was to allow people to use the meaning they have at the moment. Ie it allowed an indication of the current level of understanding of the law pertaining to the situation ( I'm sure i could have said that in a more concise way.

Either way prior to the jury go off to deliberate the judge will address the jury and provide definitions and explain any laws that are relevant to the case.
_________________________
Sumo Pacis (Choose Peace)

With Honour in Bushido
Drew Guest
www.ToowoombaSelfDefence.websyte.com.au
Bushi Dojos Self Protection
Toowoomba Self Defence

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#314807 - 01/21/07 05:20 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: drgndrew]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
My point since I deal with criminal complaints all the time, is based on the knowledge that even video can be misleading. You can't "know" what actually happened and what someone's intentions were in spite of their actions seen on a "video".

I still say "it depends".

I'm no fun. I know. Sorry.
_________________________
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#314808 - 02/05/07 02:24 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Fletch1]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So if you saw "I do not want to fight!", keep backing up, then when they pursue, nail em out of nowhere good and hard, and then leave, you are good to go most likely?
What if you say something like "if you attack me i will hurt you"?
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#314809 - 02/05/07 06:17 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Stormdragon]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
That would most likely be taken as a challenge, or a threat. Your better off saying " I am not looking for trouble", or something along those lines.
_________________________
If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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#314810 - 02/05/07 06:30 PM Re: Your a member of the jury [Re: Dedicated1]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
What a screwed up justice system, sheesh, it's a warning to enable self protection. Oh well, they got issues.
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