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#314534 - 01/12/07 08:55 PM Chin na videos by YMAA
Benson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/12/07
Posts: 5
Loc: USA
I just bought several chin na video producted by YMAA and they are great. The Practical Chin na Videos are very helpful for learning what works and what doesn't in real life.

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#314535 - 01/12/07 11:39 PM Re: Chin na videos by YMAA [Re: Benson]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
have you ever been to a seminar of YMAA? I might check one out some time this year and would like to hear if anyone has gone to one.

http://www.ymaa.com/seminars

and out of curiosity...are the videos taken from seminars? or are the videos studio produced?

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#314536 - 01/13/07 04:49 AM Re: Chin na videos by YMAA [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming is a very experienced and good instructor, who in addition to teaching his direct students has worked out a method to share his studies with others, both through his books, videos and seminar structure. By that I mean he has broken his material into levels of training to allow those who continue his seminar series to move to more and more advanced material in Tai Chi, Chin Na and other studies. Never the same as direct training, but a logical approach to share aspects of his arts.

When I moved to New England 20 years ago I attended a clinic where he was presenting some of his Chin Na, and my wife trained with him for 9 months in a series of extended seminars on Yang Tai Chi Chaun and Chin Na, where he was trying to develop a NH student base.

Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming is a very good instructor.

I took one of his weekend seminars on Tai Chi pushing hands and Tai Chi Sword right after my son was born. It was interesting, but as I had been practicing another variation of the Yang system (there are thousands of variations, imo) it was more to understand what he taught than a desire to change my own practices.

At that time filming the seminar wasn't permitted, and I expect that is remains the same. After all his organization, YMAA, produces books and video on these topics, and the same material is covered at the seminars, so they directly tie into reinforcing the seminar.

Its a way to make a short term study more binding.

The seminar I took occured after the publication of his book The Roots of Chi Kung, and truthfully the book made a lot more sense after listening to him talk about it, for he incorporated part of that material into his discussion about tai chi's functions. The seminar wasn't just technique.

The seminars are probably more geared to YMAA students (from around the world) to get more material from their founder) who would get more than the outside MA, because they're in the system.

The outside MA has the greater burden to bind the training into their own studies, unless they're just trying to gain general undestanding of the topics involved.

One question I would have, I remember Dr. Yang discussing how many senior karate-ka were training with him in White Crane, If I recall he mentions that in his books too.
In fact that was a large part of the reason he developed these seminars to share with outsiders.

I have never heard, however, of anyone discussing how they've used that training in their karate.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#314537 - 01/13/07 10:20 AM Re: Chin na videos by YMAA [Re: Victor Smith]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Informative post Victor, thanks!

Quote:

it was more to understand what he taught than a desire to change my own practices.



Can you provide a little insight as to what the differences between what you have and what Dr. Yang teaches in regards to Yang style Tai Chi?

Quote:

The seminars are probably more geared to YMAA students (from around the world) to get more material from their founder) who would get more than the outside MA, because they're in the system.




That makes sense. My teachers try and bring our grand-teacher, Luo Dexiu, in when he is on his yearly tour of the world. It works out quite well when he presents his seminars. There are things there for beginners as well as subtle little things that more advanced folks pick up. If he sees that you are at a certain level of comprehension then he will give you a bit more to expand your level of understanding within the system. If you are not familiar with the system he will often show you things that can vastly improve what it is that you are training in.
If Dr. Yang does this, then I would say he is a good teacher.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#314538 - 01/13/07 10:56 AM Re: Chin na videos by YMAA [Re: Fisherman]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Fisherman,

Ok this is going back a few years, while the Yang form I do and the one Dr. Yang teaches are roughly the same, probably the largest difference is the way energy is expressed. Dr. Yang uses pulse points to express the energy of their form, where the form I have from Mr. Rothrock uses continous flow.

I have a video of one of the Yang family (from China) that uses both forms of expression in the form. So it's likely just what point of view the instructor line chose to utilize.

This is outside of the technical differences which all of the million variations of the Yang form have.

The clinic I attended was on Push hands and Sword technique. There was a long lecture on hisory of tai chi, on chi and jing, etc. The Push hands was very different, perhaps geared more for push hands competition. The variaions I study have a different orientation is the simplest expression.

Likewise he didn't teach sword form, but how to execute sword techniques. As my son was a newborn, I didn't stay the entire 2nd day, my wife was more important.

The essential thing was his clinic was geared for his students (from other schools or towards people wanting to learn his approach. I was 10 years into my own study and the differences were not useful for what I was studying.

His tai chi is fine, just different from what I do. In turn my wife likes his approach and never felt comfortable with the approach I do, because of her 9 months training with him.

The clinic did not consist of sharing our own techniques and or suggestion from Dr. Yang. It focused on his teachings, which was the purpose of the classes.

Hope that is helpful, it's difficult to put this into words.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#314539 - 01/13/07 07:46 PM Re: Chin na videos by YMAA [Re: Victor Smith]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

Dr. Yang uses pulse points to express the energy of their form, where the form I have from Mr. Rothrock uses continuous flow.



So are you saying that Dr. Yang's style has momentary pauses where energy is expressed at pulse points and the Yang style as taught by Mr. Rothrock seeks to move in a more continuous fashion through these points of expression?
Maybe this has a contrast like Yin Bagua and Gao Bagua. Yin bagua has more of a sharp and compact expression in comparison to Gao style having a longer and more continuous flow to it.

Quote:

I have a video of one of the Yang family (from China) that uses both forms of expression in the form. So it's likely just what point of view the instructor line chose to utilize.



Maybe body type also has something to do with this also. Being that different body types express energetic principles in different ways.

Quote:

Push hands was very different, perhaps geared more for push hands competition.



Would you say it had a more combative and sharp feel to it? Some of the competition style push hands I have encountered has definitely been quick and aggressive.

Thanks for the insight.
It is good to hear that someone of Dr. Yangs stature and 'celebrity' does have a good reputation as being skilled and good at transmitting those skills.
Personally I only have one of Dr. Yangs books, "Northern Shaolin Sword". I would think that if you were already familiar with the material then this book could prove to be a nice reference tool to have.
Have you read much of his works? Anything you might recommend?
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#314540 - 01/13/07 09:45 PM Re: Chin na videos by YMAA [Re: Victor Smith]
Benson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/12/07
Posts: 5
Loc: USA
Sorry it took me so long to reply. The tapes demonstrate a technique, then two students try to execute the technique, then, the master shows them the mistakes they made in angle, position, etc. I am not a kung fu practictioner, but I think I would enjoy learning some white crane after seeing this videos. It is very much like having a personal lesson on ten techniques each video. As opposed to the new Hwa Rang Do videos which are more like private lesson on one technique. You definitely get your money's worth but as the Doctor says in the chin na tapes knowing and doing is far apart and practice is how you bring them together.

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#314541 - 01/13/07 11:07 PM Re: Chin na videos by YMAA [Re: Fisherman]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Chris,

At this time I've spent about 30 years in my own tai chi study and practice, and remain focused on my instructors way. The differences between the literal thousands of Yang versions are both subtle and gross. I'm convinved many of them are good tai chi, but they are also different just as the variations of karate are different from each other. And of course there are versions that I do not care for.

When you really practice one system what others do is not terribly important. Outside of my brief foray into Dr. Yang-Jwing Ming's clinic it's not what I do which has been more than sufficient for my purposes. Similar to my Isshinryu gives me no reason to want to study Shorin systems (except to understand some things at a 'study' level).

My instructor in the Chinese arts is so involved in the volume of his own studies he doesn't comment on others except to wish everyone works at their highest level of training.

I believe there are thousands of variations on the Yang system because it is a very large field of study, and there are many ways to approach it, depending on how you wish to use it, and if your satisfied with your instructors way, what value is there to work to collect other ways.

My suspiscion is the YMAA clinics are focused more for the students in his other schools, to get fine points of instruction. Outsiders are welcome, after all they pay too, but their road is harder. If you as a Karate-ka pursue YMAA material, you don't have re-inforcement in your school to work on the material, and to attend an occassional clinic and truly get deep material is very hard to do. Not impossible, but a journey I see few will undertake and fewer will succeed.

I think I own most of Dr. Yang's texts. All are interesting, but of value, I'd place the Chin Na work high on the list.

Of greatest interest to me is the Advanced Tai Chi II. Back in the early 80's he showed clearly the range of applications of every movement of the Yang system, how to down the opponent, how to lock the opponent, and how to impart power into the opponent, not sharing everything, but really defining how movement can be used.

And that works in ever art containing forms, whether the practitioners choose to follow that path or not. It's not right, just one set of answers. But his book had been borrowed by many, sometimes expanded, rarely acknowledged.

I would also note that the White Crane he teaches, he has been very controlled how much he has shown. Instead of clearly showing forms, his White Crane book shows how to use the energy of the techniques. Clearly, as much of his writing, he realized he couldn't share Crane in a book, but instead marketed a piece of it, especially for the karate audience (as does his Chin Na studies) that wants to make something of a Crane Okinawan connection.

A lot of his material is simply translation of other Chinese texts. The time I trained with him he described how he returned to Taiwan, borrowed as much money as possible and bought up each book he could find, and in turn he and his students have worked on translating them.

So he's sharing historical material. I have no idea how far that material is or isn't used in his practice.

My belief is to understand what Dr. Yang has, you should stop your other studies and spend decade training with him and you'll have a clearer answer, IMO.

But that is true for almost everyone, isn't it.

There are few shortcuts.

There is an old saying, the best Tai Chi books compress 50 years of study into their words, and to understand them takes 50 years of work too.

pleasantly,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#314542 - 01/14/07 07:12 PM Re: Chin na videos by YMAA [Re: Victor Smith]
Benson Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/12/07
Posts: 5
Loc: USA
Victor, I have limited mobility of the legs so which style of tai chi would you recommend. When I was much younger, I used kicks alot; however, now I am not able to throw mid or high kicks. I am interested in something which I can practice alone. I realize I will never become good without an instructor, but I would still like to do some forms.

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#314543 - 01/14/07 10:02 PM Re: Chin na videos by YMAA [Re: Benson]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Benson,

As Yang Tai Chi has the widest distribution in the world, that might be a starting place. Tai chi does contain kicks, but they can be adjusted by an instructor and saym replaced with stepping and retain the full flavor of the system.

But Tai Chi also fully involves the lower body, not just for the few kicks, but with the twisting of the waist and body.

The type of tai chi is never as important as the instructor, that they have a program that interests you and are willing to make sure your study fits your personal needs.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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