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#314313 - 01/18/07 04:42 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: IRKguy]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I personally have always had a problem with the assumption that traditional/classical arts not being designed to fight other martial artists. The okinawan bodyguards to the king/regents laid the framework for modern karate. I find it hard to believe that such bodygurads would not design their fighting art to defeat other martial artists.

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#314314 - 01/18/07 07:25 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: IRKguy]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Quote:

If you look at McCarthy's translation of the Bubushi, it seems that the traditional unarmed fighting arts were not designed for a martial artist to fight a martial artist. The assumption was that there were certain habitual acts of agression you could escape and overcome.

If you want to talk about MMA, most BJJ people would lose in a point sparring competition to someone they could easily take in another situation. A good boxer would lose to a McDojang fighter because a punch slipped or shedded is still considered a point because it touches. I've even jammed kicks and had the other person fall back and had a point called against me. It's stupid, but it's the way it is.

Tournament sparring is a game of timing and distance. It has little to do with being a good fighter. You might compare it to dueling in the Western tradition. Originally, you dueled with broadswords and shields to death or submission. During the Renaissance, upper class people started dueling with rapiers because they were quicker and fashionable. (There was a battle weapon called a rapier, but it was very different from these court weapons.) They weren't good battle weapons, but they were better for dueling. In England, these rapiers were adopted during Elizabeth I's reign because she had a court full of nobles who had never seen battle. (The Italian fencing instructors in England were on many occasions humiliated by middle-class Masters of Defense armed with quarterstaves and other traditional English weapons, according to Mendelbaum and Oakeshott.) Over time, people stopped dueling to the death but to first blood, so the rapiers got lighter and more flexible, since the cut did not have to penetrate. Some of them didn't have sharp edges anymore. Some didn't even have points anymore, just a triangular piece at the end that could scratch quicker than a point could thrust so the judges could call first blood. Then people dueled with foils and smallswords, nearly useless in the battlefield swords supposed to fight in, but better for first-blood dueling. Eventually, the smallswords became a kind of jewelry worn at the hip. If you want to compare combat to tournament sparring, find a local fencing school and walk in with a wooden shield and a sharpened broadsword looking for a match. That's the analogy I'm trying to make, but even that analogy is not enough.

Traditional martial arts are not about squaring off with someone and deciding to fight. That's dueling. It's not combat. When schools teach tournament sparring so their students can win tournaments, they are contributing to the degredation of the art. The tournament system was designed based on the assumption that the scoring technique would be a dehabilitating technique, but the honor system kind of slid off along the way. I would prefer to lose fighting the way I really fight than to win by dancing around and playing patty cake.




Nice post!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#314315 - 01/20/07 01:54 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: shoshinkan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
If I had to fight, I would prefer to win, by any means.

If you prefer to lose, better not fight, because that would just be stupid. Even tournament fighting skill is still better than no fighting skill at all.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#314316 - 01/20/07 11:00 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: TeK9]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Style doesnt matter. Only survival.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#314317 - 01/29/07 04:08 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
my opnion is that all styles are just points of view concerning how to best use the human body.

there can be only one "best" way to use the body for speed, for power and other things. and styles are just "one" (the founders) persons idea of good training methods, theory and application. training in a martial art class is just that, training. for example, you might work an escape from a choke in a judo class, but you will more then likely not do it the way you praticed it in class in a controlled enviroment. your real application of the escape will more then likely be rushed,frantic, and helped along by the rushed and anxious manner in which the choke was applied to you. after all thats what a class is, martial or other wise, order. material is layed out in a manner so that people can see the steps and understand the principles. principals that the founder best understood and was able to teach, constituting his style.

underpreasue things change, a punch you and your buddies though was sweet, actually blew. under the presure of a sparing match both indivdals are trying to apply what they've been tought to their own bodies and mental paradigms, they all look similar to "kick boxing" for example because its movements are proably real close to natural responses most people have who have been exposed to similar material. hence style themes in certin areas.

now, some people do know that what they teach deep down is total filler and a joke, thats for the indivdual to decide. as for people not having confidance in their style, i don't think so. i think they are either applying what they have learned poorly or well. for example you said you prefer to employ a crane stlye when sparing, you may have understood the instructor better then another style you spent time with, or maybe you were in a more receptive mood at the time, or whatever. but just because you like x over y, dosn't mean there isn't a y practioner out there that can't drop your ass with y.

i think its more of a you failing, then the style failing you thing. from expirence i can tell you that i have spoken to people that told me shotokan was a waste of their time, and after they switched to a kick boxing class they felt more confidant in their ability to use it. we came from the class, we even joined within 2 months of eachother. we spar from time to time, and i win. not to make a condesending ass outta myself, and i have had training in other styles and under more then one instructor, but i put the most faith in my clasical training, ie, kata, kihon, and prearanged sparing.

its not having no confidance in traditional martial arts, its having no confidance in yourself and your ability to preform. froma buddest point of view, a wise man can learn more from a foolish answer then a foolish man can learn from a wise answer. its not what you got, its how you use it. its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the fight in the dog. i hope you understand my point. i feel that traditional martial arts are used as scape goats more then insecure people are willing to admit.....

yours in life
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#314318 - 01/30/07 12:33 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: Chen Zen]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
Quote:

Style doesn't matter. Only survival.




I wonder if there are any statistics to indicate whether those that dedicate huge parts of their life to studying marital arts have a higher survival rate than those that don't? If I believe what I read in discussion forums it seems that martial arts trained people get themselves into fights more frequently than your typical civilised human being. So that suggests to me that martial arts are an atrocious form of self-defence!!!

I suspect that if martial arts do result in higher survival rates it will be because increased fitness results in reduced risk of strokes, heart disease etc. In which case styles like boxersice and tai-bo would probably score quite highly.

I think what matters in a style is entirely dependant on what that style is about. The aren't all about self-defence. Self-defence isn't really needed in this day and age - nowadays self-defence is all about AVOIDING trouble!

The 'Traditional Martial Art' that I practice (JKA Style Shotokan) delivers what it promises.
_________________________
Susan

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#314319 - 01/30/07 04:09 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: scarter]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure a Martial artist probably does get into more fights. This is for a number of reasons, training, ego, letting the wrong person know you practice, whatever. However, its inevitably that fighting experience that gives the edge to the practiced individual along with things like increased relfex speed and stamina.

I wouldnt go so far as to say self defense isnt needed these days but I agree that self avoidance is key and is something that needs to be stressed more.

When it comes to styles though, while some may not advocate avoidance, most arts are relatively similar. Its about the individual more than it is any set standard of movements or ideals.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#314320 - 01/30/07 06:39 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: Chen Zen]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
Quote:

Its about the individual more than it is any set standard of movements or ideals.




This is true. I'm 5ft 7inches and around 72 KG. Rightly or wrongly, during kumite I never feel physically threatened by people that are smaller than me (male or female). Even if they're more experienced. They might beat me on speed, and they might beat me because they're better at the particular fighting system that I practice. But I really think they'd have a hard time doing any real damage. My feeling is that it's just too easy to overpower someone significantly smaller if you weren't constrained by rules. (Now I know there will always be exceptions to this, but I think if we're honest, most of us know that the little guy or gal isn't a physical threat to the big, muscular men.)

I have quite a bit of experience in JKA style shotokan. Yet most people are quite a bit bigger than me. I can beat lots of them at JKA Style kumite, but I suspect I wouldn't stand a chance against most of the bigger beginners if they weren't constrained by the rules of the system.

All things being equal, the way you train will make a difference. But no style is good enough to allow a little 100lb lightweight guy beat up a 200lb mountain of muscle. Little, lightweight women aren't going to beat up big, strong men, and little lightweight men aren't going to beat up big, strong women.

The 200lb tae-bo or boxercise practitioner will probably beat the highly trained self-defence expert at 100lbs.

That's life.

But I can understand why a big, strong, 6ft athlete who's trained in a particular style (even a sporty style) might think that his training has made him capable of real self-defence. In reality though I think it's his size that's made him capable of real self-defence. His training has just enhanced the abilities he already had. The little 'uns amongst us are more aware of the limmitations of ALL styles when it comes to real fighting or self-defence!
_________________________
Susan

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#314321 - 01/31/07 02:44 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: scarter]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I cant agrre with that. Im not big at all. At my heaviest Im 200 at six foot. Thats cause I work out now. I used to be about 165 pounds at six foot. Any way you cut it and thats small. Anyways, at one time I beat a man boxing who was 330 pounds at 6'2. The match lasted roughly 30-45 seconds. Now I agree that it very easily could have gone the other way, but it didnt. He isnt the first guy Ive beaten who was bigger than me, just the biggest. The fact is that its possible to be successful against someone of large stature, but you have to have a good plan and the ability to execute that strategy.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#314322 - 01/31/07 05:12 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: Chen Zen]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
OK, first off, 6ft is big. At that height you are bigger than most of the population. In this particular case, the 'bigger guy' was 2 inches taller than you. Heavier, yes. But was that fat or muscle? If someone's so heavy that they can't move, then their superior weight is less of an advantage.

Now consider, say Nakayama who was 5ft 1 inches. How do you rate his chances against you? That's 11 inches smaller than you, and 3 inches smaller (and from the look of him, a lot lighter) than the average American woman.

If you think he'd do OK with a good plan and the ability to execute that strategy then would you also agree that the average American woman (5ft 4inches tall) could do likewise with the right training?

Secondly, remember boxing is a sport. In other words, fighting to rules. When you're fighting to rules, knowing how to win within the constraints of the rules can go a long way to leveling out a size disadvantage. I've seen lots of little titchy women run rings around big strong guys. They aren't daft enough to assume that they could defend themselves against those men in hte event of a serious attack. The vast majority of people accept that without reserve...yet they seem oblivious to the fact that the situation is pretty much the same with little guy vs big guy situations.


Edited by scarter (01/31/07 05:20 AM)
_________________________
Susan

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