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#314303 - 01/11/07 01:05 PM No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I have been involved with the martial arts for over 20 years now. During that time I have practiced many different styles at several schools. Some I just practiced a few months, others for several years. Each style of martial arts has its own unique movements and energy to it. I found it very enjoyable to spar using different styles and seeing how my opponent would react.

My question is, why do so many martial artist spar using an improvised kickboxing style when they spend so much time practicing a traditional martial art? It just amazes me when I go to a points tournament or an MMA competition and all the fighters use indistinguishable technique when they come from different traditions. If someone is going to kick box in the ring, why aren’t they training in it, instead of TKD? I have even sparred with instructors of schools who do this. Do they have no confidence in their own teaching? (Personally I prefer to spar using a Crane style of kungfu. Not only is it effective but most people are unfamiliar with the movements so it give me an advantage. Other times I will use TKD or BJJ etc…just to mix things up.)

This is not an issue of self-defense vs. competition technique. I am referring to fundamentals of stance and attack. The traditional ways of fighting that have been handed down for generations are effective and have proven themselves over the years.

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#314304 - 01/11/07 01:32 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Kickboxing is often "easier" to do. By easier, I mean there are less techniques and no particular stylistic requirements to adhere to. In the end, does it matter if you win via a particular "style" or not?

*rhetorical question not aimed at you in particular*
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#314305 - 01/11/07 01:51 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Reeeeaally? What martial arts have you studied?

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#314306 - 01/11/07 06:39 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
every

Because it would not be to far off the mark to suggest that at least as far as "open" tournaments go their is a "tournament style."

If you want to "win" there is a specific "tournament style" of martial arts.

Its one of the things that I find really boreing about open tournaments--everyone looks the same.

Even in kata--I see folks in "traditional" kata that are dropping into such low overly exagerrated stance that quick effecitve movement is next to impossible.

Yet they do it because somehow people got the idea that "traditiinal" means low stance and the lower the MORE "traditional" you must be.

Another problem is that fighting styles tend to vary widely.

So the only way to have a resonably "fair" match is to set some kind of limits as to what a person does.

The downside of that is that its to make the meets to "cookie cutter" for my taste.

Another problem is liability.

Groin kicks are "legal" in the style that I practice---how ever groin kicks are kinda dangerous---so people won't write paper covering you for certain kinds of blows.

So legal concerns oftan drive the "how" a meet happens.

Don't care for it myself---open tournaments are lots of fun,IF you don't take them too seriously.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#314307 - 01/12/07 02:08 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: MattJ]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I have to disagree with you, it does matter if you win with a particular style or not (except on the street). It is important to fight how you train. Example: There is nothing wrong with kickboxing but don't train for it by doing TKD. It's just not the most effective way to become a good kickboxer.

Tournaments are about (for me anyway) proving martial skill. I would rather lose every competition but show good martial skills then win using "tournament technique".

I understand that there are safety consideration so there are no groin kicks and eye gouges etc.. But, proper structure is important to maintain. I have never seen a Kungfu or Karate practicioner enter the octagon and fight the way he was trained. I attribute this not to the effectiveness of the style, but to the lack of confidence the fighter has in his traditional art. So why would he spend so much time training in it?

Maybe your right MattJ, it's all about winning. If that is the case, maybe we should all just practice "tournament style". We can take the martial out of martial arts for those point tounaments. The MMA tournaments we can call "Ground and Pound" tournaments. Yes, I know I am exagerating a bit but it is very frustrating for me to see such a misrepresentation of the long standing traditions fighters claim as their lineage.

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#314308 - 01/12/07 08:07 PM No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello:

Perhaps the question is not one lacking confidence in X art-training rather more simply the RULES of the tournament... perhaps?

Sweep, love to... head contact, if open, yes... groin absolutely, again if open....

Forbidden, correct? Also consider the marshmellow equipment and gear protection of this and that... without all the protection, things would certainly change, yes?

J

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#314309 - 01/13/07 05:01 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: Ronin1966]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Tournaments aren't designed to test martial arts. They are designed to make money, and today, with people being sued for breaking a nail, they try to "powderpuff" them as much as possible.

Since most schools think control is an instruction rather than a skill, so they don't teach people how long their arms and legs are, they just "pad them up" and throw them out there to touch the other player... then, they give you the list of all the places you can't hit, which defeats the purpose of fighting arts.

Traditional tournaments have higher standards than just "tournaments", and the skill level involved is much higher, and requires better judges as well... that's why the promoters all want the "Bud Light" X-games tournaments where anything passes for martial arts if you have the music loud enough.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#314310 - 01/15/07 10:39 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: wristtwister]
Zanaffar Offline
The Iron Curtain

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 33
Is it possible that tournament martial arts looks like kickboxing because it is a more effective way of scoring a point or a knockout or plain old hurting the other person (in as safe a manner as possible). If there were absolutely no rules in tournaments, I predict that "tournament style" will look exactly like current MMA but with eye gouges, groin kicks, biting... all that nasty stuff. Why? Because that's what works.

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#314311 - 01/16/07 12:05 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
IRKguy Offline
Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 56
If you look at McCarthy's translation of the Bubushi, it seems that the traditional unarmed fighting arts were not designed for a martial artist to fight a martial artist. The assumption was that there were certain habitual acts of agression you could escape and overcome.

If you want to talk about MMA, most BJJ people would lose in a point sparring competition to someone they could easily take in another situation. A good boxer would lose to a McDojang fighter because a punch slipped or shedded is still considered a point because it touches. I've even jammed kicks and had the other person fall back and had a point called against me. It's stupid, but it's the way it is.

Tournament sparring is a game of timing and distance. It has little to do with being a good fighter. You might compare it to dueling in the Western tradition. Originally, you dueled with broadswords and shields to death or submission. During the Renaissance, upper class people started dueling with rapiers because they were quicker and fashionable. (There was a battle weapon called a rapier, but it was very different from these court weapons.) They weren't good battle weapons, but they were better for dueling. In England, these rapiers were adopted during Elizabeth I's reign because she had a court full of nobles who had never seen battle. (The Italian fencing instructors in England were on many occasions humiliated by middle-class Masters of Defense armed with quarterstaves and other traditional English weapons, according to Mendelbaum and Oakeshott.) Over time, people stopped dueling to the death but to first blood, so the rapiers got lighter and more flexible, since the cut did not have to penetrate. Some of them didn't have sharp edges anymore. Some didn't even have points anymore, just a triangular piece at the end that could scratch quicker than a point could thrust so the judges could call first blood. Then people dueled with foils and smallswords, nearly useless in the battlefield swords supposed to fight in, but better for first-blood dueling. Eventually, the smallswords became a kind of jewelry worn at the hip. If you want to compare combat to tournament sparring, find a local fencing school and walk in with a wooden shield and a sharpened broadsword looking for a match. That's the analogy I'm trying to make, but even that analogy is not enough.

Traditional martial arts are not about squaring off with someone and deciding to fight. That's dueling. It's not combat. When schools teach tournament sparring so their students can win tournaments, they are contributing to the degredation of the art. The tournament system was designed based on the assumption that the scoring technique would be a dehabilitating technique, but the honor system kind of slid off along the way. I would prefer to lose fighting the way I really fight than to win by dancing around and playing patty cake.

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#314312 - 01/18/07 03:33 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
cxt & wrist both made good points but you need to realize that fighting & competition are 2 completely different animals. All the effective SD techniques found in karate are illegal tournament techniques. What does that tell you?

In the beginning, styles developed based on the originator's skill, region, access to weapons (improvised or established), body type, temperment & even socio-economic status. If you're expecting a Goju-ryu fighter (in cat-stance) to face a Shotokan fighter (in long front stance), you've been watching too many movies & cartoons. When I started in '77, we all used a longer stance w/ hands held low. Not any more. A boxer's stance seems to work for the majority of competitors & says nothing about the practitioners loyalty to or faith in his style.

Don't all swimmers, track runners & baseball players look pretty similar? What's the difference w/ MA?

owari

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#314313 - 01/18/07 04:42 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: IRKguy]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I personally have always had a problem with the assumption that traditional/classical arts not being designed to fight other martial artists. The okinawan bodyguards to the king/regents laid the framework for modern karate. I find it hard to believe that such bodygurads would not design their fighting art to defeat other martial artists.

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#314314 - 01/18/07 07:25 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: IRKguy]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Quote:

If you look at McCarthy's translation of the Bubushi, it seems that the traditional unarmed fighting arts were not designed for a martial artist to fight a martial artist. The assumption was that there were certain habitual acts of agression you could escape and overcome.

If you want to talk about MMA, most BJJ people would lose in a point sparring competition to someone they could easily take in another situation. A good boxer would lose to a McDojang fighter because a punch slipped or shedded is still considered a point because it touches. I've even jammed kicks and had the other person fall back and had a point called against me. It's stupid, but it's the way it is.

Tournament sparring is a game of timing and distance. It has little to do with being a good fighter. You might compare it to dueling in the Western tradition. Originally, you dueled with broadswords and shields to death or submission. During the Renaissance, upper class people started dueling with rapiers because they were quicker and fashionable. (There was a battle weapon called a rapier, but it was very different from these court weapons.) They weren't good battle weapons, but they were better for dueling. In England, these rapiers were adopted during Elizabeth I's reign because she had a court full of nobles who had never seen battle. (The Italian fencing instructors in England were on many occasions humiliated by middle-class Masters of Defense armed with quarterstaves and other traditional English weapons, according to Mendelbaum and Oakeshott.) Over time, people stopped dueling to the death but to first blood, so the rapiers got lighter and more flexible, since the cut did not have to penetrate. Some of them didn't have sharp edges anymore. Some didn't even have points anymore, just a triangular piece at the end that could scratch quicker than a point could thrust so the judges could call first blood. Then people dueled with foils and smallswords, nearly useless in the battlefield swords supposed to fight in, but better for first-blood dueling. Eventually, the smallswords became a kind of jewelry worn at the hip. If you want to compare combat to tournament sparring, find a local fencing school and walk in with a wooden shield and a sharpened broadsword looking for a match. That's the analogy I'm trying to make, but even that analogy is not enough.

Traditional martial arts are not about squaring off with someone and deciding to fight. That's dueling. It's not combat. When schools teach tournament sparring so their students can win tournaments, they are contributing to the degredation of the art. The tournament system was designed based on the assumption that the scoring technique would be a dehabilitating technique, but the honor system kind of slid off along the way. I would prefer to lose fighting the way I really fight than to win by dancing around and playing patty cake.




Nice post!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#314315 - 01/20/07 01:54 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: shoshinkan]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
If I had to fight, I would prefer to win, by any means.

If you prefer to lose, better not fight, because that would just be stupid. Even tournament fighting skill is still better than no fighting skill at all.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#314316 - 01/20/07 11:00 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: TeK9]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Style doesnt matter. Only survival.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#314317 - 01/29/07 04:08 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
my opnion is that all styles are just points of view concerning how to best use the human body.

there can be only one "best" way to use the body for speed, for power and other things. and styles are just "one" (the founders) persons idea of good training methods, theory and application. training in a martial art class is just that, training. for example, you might work an escape from a choke in a judo class, but you will more then likely not do it the way you praticed it in class in a controlled enviroment. your real application of the escape will more then likely be rushed,frantic, and helped along by the rushed and anxious manner in which the choke was applied to you. after all thats what a class is, martial or other wise, order. material is layed out in a manner so that people can see the steps and understand the principles. principals that the founder best understood and was able to teach, constituting his style.

underpreasue things change, a punch you and your buddies though was sweet, actually blew. under the presure of a sparing match both indivdals are trying to apply what they've been tought to their own bodies and mental paradigms, they all look similar to "kick boxing" for example because its movements are proably real close to natural responses most people have who have been exposed to similar material. hence style themes in certin areas.

now, some people do know that what they teach deep down is total filler and a joke, thats for the indivdual to decide. as for people not having confidance in their style, i don't think so. i think they are either applying what they have learned poorly or well. for example you said you prefer to employ a crane stlye when sparing, you may have understood the instructor better then another style you spent time with, or maybe you were in a more receptive mood at the time, or whatever. but just because you like x over y, dosn't mean there isn't a y practioner out there that can't drop your ass with y.

i think its more of a you failing, then the style failing you thing. from expirence i can tell you that i have spoken to people that told me shotokan was a waste of their time, and after they switched to a kick boxing class they felt more confidant in their ability to use it. we came from the class, we even joined within 2 months of eachother. we spar from time to time, and i win. not to make a condesending ass outta myself, and i have had training in other styles and under more then one instructor, but i put the most faith in my clasical training, ie, kata, kihon, and prearanged sparing.

its not having no confidance in traditional martial arts, its having no confidance in yourself and your ability to preform. froma buddest point of view, a wise man can learn more from a foolish answer then a foolish man can learn from a wise answer. its not what you got, its how you use it. its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the fight in the dog. i hope you understand my point. i feel that traditional martial arts are used as scape goats more then insecure people are willing to admit.....

yours in life
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#314318 - 01/30/07 12:33 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: Chen Zen]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
Quote:

Style doesn't matter. Only survival.




I wonder if there are any statistics to indicate whether those that dedicate huge parts of their life to studying marital arts have a higher survival rate than those that don't? If I believe what I read in discussion forums it seems that martial arts trained people get themselves into fights more frequently than your typical civilised human being. So that suggests to me that martial arts are an atrocious form of self-defence!!!

I suspect that if martial arts do result in higher survival rates it will be because increased fitness results in reduced risk of strokes, heart disease etc. In which case styles like boxersice and tai-bo would probably score quite highly.

I think what matters in a style is entirely dependant on what that style is about. The aren't all about self-defence. Self-defence isn't really needed in this day and age - nowadays self-defence is all about AVOIDING trouble!

The 'Traditional Martial Art' that I practice (JKA Style Shotokan) delivers what it promises.
_________________________
Susan

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#314319 - 01/30/07 04:09 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: scarter]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sure a Martial artist probably does get into more fights. This is for a number of reasons, training, ego, letting the wrong person know you practice, whatever. However, its inevitably that fighting experience that gives the edge to the practiced individual along with things like increased relfex speed and stamina.

I wouldnt go so far as to say self defense isnt needed these days but I agree that self avoidance is key and is something that needs to be stressed more.

When it comes to styles though, while some may not advocate avoidance, most arts are relatively similar. Its about the individual more than it is any set standard of movements or ideals.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#314320 - 01/30/07 06:39 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: Chen Zen]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
Quote:

Its about the individual more than it is any set standard of movements or ideals.




This is true. I'm 5ft 7inches and around 72 KG. Rightly or wrongly, during kumite I never feel physically threatened by people that are smaller than me (male or female). Even if they're more experienced. They might beat me on speed, and they might beat me because they're better at the particular fighting system that I practice. But I really think they'd have a hard time doing any real damage. My feeling is that it's just too easy to overpower someone significantly smaller if you weren't constrained by rules. (Now I know there will always be exceptions to this, but I think if we're honest, most of us know that the little guy or gal isn't a physical threat to the big, muscular men.)

I have quite a bit of experience in JKA style shotokan. Yet most people are quite a bit bigger than me. I can beat lots of them at JKA Style kumite, but I suspect I wouldn't stand a chance against most of the bigger beginners if they weren't constrained by the rules of the system.

All things being equal, the way you train will make a difference. But no style is good enough to allow a little 100lb lightweight guy beat up a 200lb mountain of muscle. Little, lightweight women aren't going to beat up big, strong men, and little lightweight men aren't going to beat up big, strong women.

The 200lb tae-bo or boxercise practitioner will probably beat the highly trained self-defence expert at 100lbs.

That's life.

But I can understand why a big, strong, 6ft athlete who's trained in a particular style (even a sporty style) might think that his training has made him capable of real self-defence. In reality though I think it's his size that's made him capable of real self-defence. His training has just enhanced the abilities he already had. The little 'uns amongst us are more aware of the limmitations of ALL styles when it comes to real fighting or self-defence!
_________________________
Susan

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#314321 - 01/31/07 02:44 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: scarter]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I cant agrre with that. Im not big at all. At my heaviest Im 200 at six foot. Thats cause I work out now. I used to be about 165 pounds at six foot. Any way you cut it and thats small. Anyways, at one time I beat a man boxing who was 330 pounds at 6'2. The match lasted roughly 30-45 seconds. Now I agree that it very easily could have gone the other way, but it didnt. He isnt the first guy Ive beaten who was bigger than me, just the biggest. The fact is that its possible to be successful against someone of large stature, but you have to have a good plan and the ability to execute that strategy.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#314322 - 01/31/07 05:12 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: Chen Zen]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
OK, first off, 6ft is big. At that height you are bigger than most of the population. In this particular case, the 'bigger guy' was 2 inches taller than you. Heavier, yes. But was that fat or muscle? If someone's so heavy that they can't move, then their superior weight is less of an advantage.

Now consider, say Nakayama who was 5ft 1 inches. How do you rate his chances against you? That's 11 inches smaller than you, and 3 inches smaller (and from the look of him, a lot lighter) than the average American woman.

If you think he'd do OK with a good plan and the ability to execute that strategy then would you also agree that the average American woman (5ft 4inches tall) could do likewise with the right training?

Secondly, remember boxing is a sport. In other words, fighting to rules. When you're fighting to rules, knowing how to win within the constraints of the rules can go a long way to leveling out a size disadvantage. I've seen lots of little titchy women run rings around big strong guys. They aren't daft enough to assume that they could defend themselves against those men in hte event of a serious attack. The vast majority of people accept that without reserve...yet they seem oblivious to the fact that the situation is pretty much the same with little guy vs big guy situations.


Edited by scarter (01/31/07 05:20 AM)
_________________________
Susan

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#314323 - 01/31/07 12:09 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: scarter]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I dont know. Six ft may be big, maybe I just run around with big guys so I dont notice. Now his weight was significant over my own. Twice my own weight roughly. Now granted some of that was fat, the vast majority of it is muscle. The guys strong as an ox. Hes been my boxing partner and grappling partner for about three years now.

I think any opponent is a threat. Regardless of size or weight. Its what you do with those things. I have a base strategy for nearly every body type. I think this is something everyone should have.

For someone of my partners size, Im going to fight him alot different than Nakayama, for instance. With a smaller opponent such as the one you suggested, Im going to try to use my reach. Keep him outside. Work the jab to keep him back and to setup a good power shot. Also, I want to keep him back so he doesnt get underneath me and get leverage. I also want to keep him on his feet. His light weight and short stature offers me no advantage if we are on the ground. Im going to try and press the attack, keep him on the defensive.

Now as for fighting a larger opponent, this is often much easier than people let on. First and foremost, a larger opponent has much more targets. He has more area to attack. Also, judge his footwork. The general rule of thumb is the bigger they are the slower the footwork. This isnt always true, but most of the time it holds up. If you have the better footwork you already have it in the bag, unless you just get blindsided or walk into an attack.

When I fight the bigger guy, Im going to take on the role of the shorter guy and Im going to execute a plan, based on that like the I was the small guy above. For example the large guy wants to keep me back. So I stay back. Just out of reach. I make him strike, over and over. I dodge and when I get the chance I counter as he pulls back from striking. Since his limbs are longer I attack them. i attack the knees, making his mobility suffer. If I can, I attack his elbows and shoulders to punish him when he attempts to strike. I want to work quick combinations, in and out. I want to strike coming in and I want to strike as Im backing out of his range. Since his footwork is slowe than my own I also want to work the jab, get him thinking of defense. Get him to keep moving that big frame.

You can win this fight.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#314324 - 01/31/07 01:41 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: Chen Zen]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
of coarse my own stratigy would b eslithyly different, but im familiar with a different set of techniques. but i agree with you chen. "general" stratigies that can be adapted to fit an indivdual are the way i go.

as for small people beating big people, hell man thats what i train for. yes of coarse its easier for a larger, stronger person to bowl over a smaller person. but thats a huge blanket statement, and the options that anyone has open to them in terms of a no ruled fight are endless. the human anatomy alone provides the tiny female with enough ammo to reduce any man to a winpering pile of testarone in seconds.

i was trained by a women who's 5'1 and 125 lbs, and she specialiazed in bringing down the hulks. she regularly fought and beat larger women in natonal and internatilnal competetion. she'll be the first to admit that its not easy, and she never won all the time, but she never once backed down. and thats proably one of the more important things she stressed in class, not giving up or ever being afraid. its inspirational coming from someone who pratices what they preach.

while your rn of the mill WWE wrestler type is trying to walk clean through a "small lady" he's getting kicked in the groin. if he picks her up from behind, hes getting kicked in the grion, his inner thighs pinched, his face smased by the back of her head. its endless my man, you can always win. the biggest advantage that a larger person has is a mental advantage, they feel srtong and confidant, and their small opponent feels scared and therefore misses oppertunities and just recoils in fear and does not even try. the loose the fight befor they ever begin.

a small person is goinf to have to work 5 times as hard to put a big guy down with a stomach punch. thats why they never try for it in a live situation. if the large person is taking the easy way of fighting by relying on his natural advantages, then so does the small person, by playing on the anatomical weaknesses of the big guy. now theres no such thing as a easy button, of coarse its going to be tough, and verry dangerous. but no where near imposible.

if i had to fight, HAD to fight. i simply would, and till it was over. i spend my training time getting ready for as many posible threats as i can, bring them the &%@# on!!
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its not supposed to make sense

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#314325 - 01/31/07 02:02 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: student_of_life]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
Quote:

as for small people beating big people, hell man thats what i train for.




That's what I train for too. But I know that without rules it's a long shot when there's a big size difference (with rules it's not easy). So whereas a 5ft 2inch 120lb woman who's pretty expert at JKA style karate might not be very capable of defending herself against a large, strong attacker, chances are a big, muscular guy with mediocre skills and experience would fair much better. In other words, attributes like size, strength, athleticism and weight probably count for a lot more than proficiency in any martial arts style. An untrained heavyweight will probably stand a better chance than a highly skilled strawweight.

This might explain why some people insist that sports fighting training is applicable to real self-defence situations, whereas others say that most sports fighters couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag. It just depends on what you started out with.

But here's a question for you two that's close to my heart....

I've always wondered why they have separate categories for men and women in competition. Whilst I'm the first to admit that big people have a huge advantage (even in competition with rules), I fail to see the logic in allowing little men to fight big men and little women to fight big women yet not allow same sized men and women to compete against each other! Why do they do that - does anyone know?

In traditional karate (e.g. JKA/ITKF) the whole point is supposed to be to train to overcome dissadvantages rather than avoid them, so it's plain nuts to have separate categories for men and women!

In self-defence lessons it's even worse - who ever heard of a woman being attacked by another woman?!

So what's the gender segregation all about? I would say this is one of the few areas where I do feel that so called 'Traditional Karate' (don't know about other traditional martial arts??) isn't practicing what it preaches.


Edited by scarter (01/31/07 02:04 PM)
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#314326 - 01/31/07 03:55 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: scarter]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
small people vr big people: i already said it once, without rules a real fight is going to be a groin smashing, eye scratching, knee kicking, neck pokeing dirty fighting affair. and in that situation, muscle and gerth is only going to protect your back, stomach, and maybe your neck. nearly all the anatomical weak spots on the human body will always be open, regardless of size. if i kick a dnd playing stick man in the pills, he is down and out. if i kick a roid useing hulk in the pills, he is down and out. no 2 ways about it, a human is weak where a human is weak. im sure you've herd the saying "focus all your strength at your opponent's weakness" thats what im talking about, and if a big athletic guy thinks me, or my smurf of a sensei is going to be a push over, then their in for something. alright. and through martial arts training its practioners whould learn the value of being in shape, and through pratice they will get in shape, they will become more athletic, stronger, faster and all that stuff. the techniqe teaches them how to use their body, a body that that should work on just as much as their technique, to forget either is lazyness and stupid if you ever plan on using what you learned.

my beef with sport fighters is that their striking technique is altered to fit the sport areana, and does not make use of proper body mechanics. its just a tag, not a punch. i know that mass moving at a speed will produce force, but they pusposfully excange follow through ability for a quick jerk of the arm, and its going to bounce off of someone bigger then them. so the bigger the sport guy, the harder he punches, in the ITKF the older you are the harder you punch. kinda....

boxing doesent have male vr female fights either, neither does soccor, or TKD. i can only speak for the ITKF and from my own expirence, and in the ITKF the only time a male and female are on the matt at the same time is during an embu. an embu is a prearanged fight between 2 people used to display both peoples ability to use their technique in a self defence situation. there are 2 catagories for embu: male vr male, and male vr female. there is not female vr female becase sensei Nishiyama dosen't feel thats that is a commen occruence. because male aggression is more commen then female. females can spar against females, case after all sparing is just a way to pratice your timing, spirit, and skill. in our dojo, men and women spar all the time, i'm not really sure why they don't do it at competetions.

and besides, sparing is not a good example for a real fight, there are rules there. so why would you want to spar against someone using rules that are going to prohibit the use of techniques effective enough to put you on even ground with a bigger guy. the rules, like you said hold the larger person back from using his advantage to its fullest, the smaller person too.

sparing bigger people is not going to teach you to deal with a large person, kihon drills based on real life situations will. as it stands now, you have never had proper training to use your training against different body types, until you do, all you can do it speculate. sparing is going to teach to you spar. thats all. there are other forms of training that are closer to the real thing, don't substute something in where its going to be inefective. get some mats out and get at it.

im not saying in any what that what your learning is inefective, please don't misunderstand me. infact im glade to see another shotokan practioner thats looking for some answers, props to ya!! after all, i've never been to your dojo, i don't know how you train at all. im just saying that these are somethings that have worked for me.

as for the gender segreation, japan karate is still sexist, i don't care who tells me different, thats what i think. the best i can figure is that competetion is just a place to test your skill level. not place to train real self defence. what you learn from your kata and sparing is suposed to be applied. and you apply it in the dojo. i don't think the idea of competeting to see who has the best chances in real life is really a good idea. we compete to see who understands the dynamics and budo best, the application is something to be explored in a dojo setting, a personal one. competetion is just a tool, sparing is just a tool, its up to you and your dojo to use the tools.

yours in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#314327 - 02/01/07 04:38 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: student_of_life]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
Quote:

small people vr big people: i already said it once, without rules a real fight is going to be a groin smashing, eye scratching, knee kicking, neck pokeing dirty fighting affair.




I suspect that's probably true. And none of that is in our (UKTKF) syllabus. Self-defence/real fighting just isn't what traditional karate is about in my opinion (it may well be a bi-product, but it's not what the art is 'designed' for). Can anyone show me a Traditional Karate syllabus that does focus primarily on these kind of techniques? Certainly the JKA syllabus, and ours is all about physically demanding competition style techniques. Now sure, it's not all about competition, but the techniques we practice (if we adhere to the syllabus), are sport fighting techniques - or long range duelling techniques.

Now people talk of being disillusioned by Traditional Karate, but I think that's because there's a widespread misconception of what it's all about. Lots of people start out believing they're learning self-defence/real fighting. But upon close scrutiny it just doesn't hold up - there are too many flaws. And so some try to change it to be more like a self-defence system and others loose interest altogether.

Which is a big shame, because if you evaluate Traditional Karate for what it is - modern budo...a form of Shugyo, then it holds up very well to scrutiny. If you've enjoyed it for years, then why should it bother you if you find out one day that the thing that you enjoy so much isn't optimised for self-defence/street fighting? After all, loads of people will tell you that despite it being primarily a budo or self-improvement art centered around sport fighting techniques, a bi-product of training is pretty darn good self-defence capability. (Others, including little people, will find it less useful in this respect).

Quote:

as for the gender segreation, japan karate is still sexist, i don't care who tells me different, thats what i think.




Whilst I think this is certainly true, when it comes to training opportunities I would say it's LESS sexist than most modern (Western) sports. It wasn't until I started karate that I began to think..."just a minute, why is it that they're telling us to aim high and refuse to let any obstacle stand in our way, yet they don't let me fight men?". And then later - "Not all of these men are better at fighting/kata than me, so why do we have to pretend they are?". Prior to karate training I just accepted it. Knew my place I suppose. Now I see it for what it is and absolutely NEVER accept it. So whether it's intentional or not, I do think karate training teaches you not to accept any kind of discrimination. Another thing I've noticed (and of course, you can't judge a whole nation by one man) is that my Japanese instructor is far less sexist when it comes to pushing women forward in karate than any of the Western instructors that I know. He just wants EVERYONE to be good regardless of age, gender or race. I really haven't noticed any discrimination against anyone.
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Susan

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#314328 - 02/01/07 05:11 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: scarter]
scarter Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 24
Loc: Glasgow, UK
So, getting back to the original question (sorry, I've been going off at a tangent), I think we (Traditional Karate) do fight the way we train. (I know in my club/org we do). Of course, when it comes to competition, techniques tend to be limited to kizami-zuki, gyaku-zuki and maegeri. But that's because they work. In club training people will typically train to expand their repetoir of 'workable techniques'. I'm with those that have said it's not about winning. We're told that all the time. Which is proof positive to me that it's not a self-defence system that we're learning!!!

Our typical training is 3 K's. Primarily kihon, starting with basic techniques and gradually building in more movement then working those techniques into kumite drills.

Kata is a kind of add on at the end - the display side of karate maybe...or just a discipline that preserves the style (ie. stops you optimising your kihon too much for kumite - forces you to train your techniques for kata too)? I agree that kata doesn't really fit with kumite and kihon. (Unless you ignore the syllabus and start doing your own thing in order to make it fit).
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#314329 - 02/01/07 04:54 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: scarter]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
well this is where our JKA paths seperate i think. at every class, every seminar, every time im told that the spritual side of budo is just as important as the physical aspect of self defence, in fact self defence is alwasy first for us. we don't change the techniuqes much at all really, and i would suspect that our kata will look almost the same.

we train to be able to defend or selves first and foremost, and we apply what we learn in as many way as we can think of. our kumite is dictated by rules, of course. but the rules are designed to protect the fighters from obvious things like no eye gouging or groin kicks. other then that we have a clearly defined idea of what constitutes "ippon" and it is strictly followed to the letter. the idea is to foster the ability to connect with a power shot under stress. we use our kmite to teach the qualities we fell are important to be able to efectivly defend our selves.

so i feel that i have all confidane that my training in a traditional martial will help me in real life.

as for kata being an add on, i disagree completly. but hey, i would,lol. kata, kihon, and kumite are 3 different vantage points from which we can approach the same objective, spritual budo, and practial ability to survive a dangerous situation. kata is kihon and kumite, kihon is kata and kumite, and kumite is kata and kihon. its all karate training. they are all central, at least to me. your style obvisouly has its own ideas and goals, and you seem to enjoy it throughly so good on ya!!

your right, we do fight the way we train. and i don't train to develop habits in the kumite ring, developing habits to defeat another karate ka is its own end, competetion kumite. kumite is just another tool for us, we develop it around the idea that our opponents will most likely not attack like trained karate ka, so we allow any technique in our kumite, so long as it is not overtly dangerous (ie eye gouging) and it meet the requirements for "ippon" that is a technique in which both feet are planted firmly on the ground, the total body has been employed to hit the target creating maximum focus at the time im impact, and is followed by a stable stance and mental preparedness (ie zanshin, you don't loose your ballance when you hit, and you recover fast enough so that no counter can be made)

sweeps, hook punches, ridge hands, lots of stuf. you are right though, the most commen attacks are jab, raverse pnch and front kick. but we are most familiar with them due to our training, like you said we fight how we train.

i can see that if you train for the ring, then your going to be specialiazed for the ring. i mean if you don't work kata, then you'll have weak kata. if you don't work something then don't expect to be good at it. we train with different goals in mind. you can use the material your learning for other purposes, you just have to change how you work and interpurate it.

yours in life
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#314330 - 05/09/08 05:10 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
headstrongBB Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 4
two things:
1) necisarily there is no style in kickboxing becuase it is based on the kenpo style of martial arts.
2) most people fight with kickboxing type movements because it is the quickest, easiest way for us humans to move. it's normal human reflexes of how to fight.
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WHATEVER IT TAKES

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#314331 - 05/09/08 05:33 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: headstrongBB]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

1) necisarily there is no style in kickboxing becuase it is based on the kenpo style of martial arts.




Kickboxing is not based on kenpo. I believe kickboxing's karate base is from the kyokushin derived arts. Not 100% certain, though.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#314332 - 05/09/08 06:15 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

1) necisarily there is no style in kickboxing becuase it is based on the kenpo style of martial arts.




Kickboxing is not based on kenpo. I believe kickboxing's karate base is from the kyokushin derived arts. Not 100% certain, though.




Not entirely true. Just check out Chuck Liddell's Hawaiian Kempo. His teacher, Hackleman, developed his Kempo for use in a kickboxing environment. Why do you think Chuck's style is so different from most other strikers in combat sports such as MMA and kickboxing? He uses kempo fighting principles and not just straight american, holland, thai, etc. kickboxing.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#314333 - 05/09/08 07:28 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I was referring to the historical development of kickboxing in the 1960's and 1970's (specifically the PKA). I guess a case for kenpo could be made with Benny Urquidez though, so your point is taken.

Although how "traditional" either kenpo or kyokushinkai are is up for debate.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#314334 - 05/09/08 11:58 PM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yeah, I think I misunderstood his post. I read it quick and thought he was saying there was no style of kickboxing based on kenpo, but he said that kickboxing was based on kenpo. If the kenpo he is referring to is the sport version of a koryu art or simply the okinawan use of the term when referring to striking methods then I agree, but if he is talking about one or all of the many styles of kenpo out there then I don't agree.
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#314335 - 05/14/08 04:32 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: medulanet]
The_Master Offline
Banned. With extreme prejudice.

Registered: 04/21/08
Posts: 145
Loc: Australia. aka The Down Under
*sigh* again in my opinion as some1 who DOES NOT do MA, i believe that competition should be about getting better instead of using 'kickboxing' because it's 'easier'. the hard way has less limitations than the easy way, like in tennis, ppl can have powerful 'lolly-pops' but once u find the hard technique, at its peak it overcomes the easy way.
of course there's the saying from JKD, "the easy way is the right way" i can agree with that, but if the hard way can carry you further, then i disagree but if they come up with the same result or the easy way is better in the situation, then the easy way is the right way.
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Use no way as way: JKD. Martial Arts is a way of life.

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#314336 - 05/14/08 07:53 AM Re: No Confidence in Traditional Martial Arts [Re: everyone]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Everyone:

The purpose of an OPEN "tournament" today is to win trophies & medals by whatever inane, foolish method possible. Show up you win. The bigger, larger (sic. insanely) the better one supposedly "is"... correct? Any pretense of genuine technical skill has been replaced by pretty & speedy to music whenever possible.

I wonder could it be the reason we don't see fundamental technique because too many bounce from art to art like oil on a hot griddle? I have to stay in one place, learning one thing period, for a decent time to make it habit, right? Any ole punch any ole way would make sense if too few had done the basic work.

I would also wager we'd see very different responses (open tournaments) IF the attacks were chokes, arm bars, etc. allowed sweeps and throws.

We'd have to remove the children from the entire tournament process... . "...Sure, do whatever you want..." I'm 100% certain they'll love it until they are the one actually getting hurt...

Jeff

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