FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 22 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mohdnabeel, sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT
22915 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
AndyLA 3
Matakiant 2
Zombie Zero 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
Today at 09:05 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Matakiant
Yesterday at 07:11 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
Yesterday at 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
Forum Stats
22915 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432495 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#314055 - 01/14/07 09:24 AM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: Unsu]
Mingram Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 13
Quote:

Quote:

A horrible tragedy. But I am not sure they are making the right decision here.

http://www.policeone.com/training/articles/127313/

"AUSTIN, Texas- The Texas Department of Public Safety said it will no longer train police officers with a boxing drill that resulted in a recruit's death last year.

The department suspended full-contact fighting after Jimmy Ray Carty Jr. died of head injuries last May. He was knocked to the ground at least twice by blows to the head.

"We are confident we will find ways to train them that will keep them safe and keep the people of the state of Texas safe," department spokeswoman Tela Mange said Wednesday.

The agency used the drill for at least 30 years and had argued it was useful training for officers who must be prepared to fight on the streets.

But consultants hired by the department after Carty's death recommended the drill be eliminated because it caused too many head injuries and did not involve realistic situations.

The department also banned all other exercises that involve hitting or other hard contact between trainees.
"

Given that many police officers face physical conflict every day, I'm not sure that removing all "live" training is a good idea. Many aspects of combat cannot be imparted without resistance. I mean, should CPR be not taught if someone gets injured? Accidents are bound to happen.

With all due respect to the dead cadet. Not trying to minimize the heartache of the family involved.




What would CPR do for a severe head injury like an intracranial bleed? Absolutely nothing.

Why do policeman or statetroopers need to know how to box with gloves on? That kind of training is for sport and the ring not for the streets or law enforcement.

Why would a policeman or trooper need to stand toe-to-toe with a bad guy and duke it out? That is a very rare thing indeed.

How many bad guys will be wearing gloves and willing to stand there and box? Not too many.

Now training in grappling arts like Judo or BJJ/GJJ would make sense. In fact when I coordinated and hosted a Caique Jiu-Jitsu seminar at UTSA in the early part of the millenia I went to the University police and our Health Science Center to ask them if they'd like to participate. I explained the salience of groundwork and grappling in apprehending ciminals. They laughed and said "we got guns, pepper spray, batons and back-up". They were, are and will be obliviously stupid. So I guess cops feel that boxing is more salient for arresting people.

The thing with blunt head trauma with padded gloves is that it spreads the force over a larger area unlike head punches or face punches without any or minimal padding. This leads to multiple concussions where the brain slams against the skull. Each time you have a concussion or contussion (bruise) to the brain you have a chance of severe irreversible brain damage and/or death. The brain cell loss is a sure thing.

Boxing is the most brutal of all sports. It is designed to destroy that which makes us human, our brain. There is a reason that certain folks, usually underprivileged people, fight in the ring. You don't see Don King trying to box or Dana White in the Octagon for a reason. They leave it up to the human pit bulls who are willing to kill themselves for some money and limited fame but really to make other non-boxers/fighters very, very rich.


Boxing and police work are not conducive especially long-term. This idea gives new meaning to "fighting for fighting's sake". Cops need their brains. Most are barely above average intelligence as it is . They need to be healthy to apprehend criminals. What good is being dead or injured and trying to be a policeman?

They should learn how to fight without gloves anyway. Boxing is for kids and athletes, not for soldiers and the police. They should be learning how to punch without padding. They should only allow controlled cony=tact on humans, but emphasize a lot of bag work and other supplemental drills to get them acclimated to punching with some force and velocity.

You can't hit the head continuously and expect something like Parkinsonian Syndrome, dementia or that death NOT to happen. It just shows how ignorant folks are of science and medicine.

Peace to the cat who died and much respect to the family. God bless them. IMO they should sue fo' sheez'...




Boxing is VERY good martial art, while you learn to fight with gloves on, it is jsut as effective if not more effective with them off. I personally am a Boxer and have done Tae Kwon Doe for about 6 years. Boxing is a simple art, but thats where it stregthens. Because there is only 6 punches you can learn how to perfect them, and defence is key. You can dodge a head kick because to you it is the same as a punch. Training officers in boxing is an excellent plan because it does not take 3 years to learn how to preform effectivly. It's a shame one death has haulted such a great training
_________________________
Whatever happened to defending one's honor?

Top
#314056 - 09/23/07 07:05 PM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: Mingram]
chunky_chicken Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/07
Posts: 70
Loc: Merrillville, Indiana, USA
yeah..they def. overreacted here. it is a great shame, but what are they going to teach now? learning something in theory is different than learning something in practice. just as you cant expect to do a sliding roundhouse kick by hearing how its done, you cant learn to fight by being told to punch the guy. they cant teach them with no-contact. its idiotic. i am deeply sorry for the casualty. but i am also sorry for the town that will now have an undertrained police force.

Top
#314057 - 09/23/07 10:38 PM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: chunky_chicken]
Unyu Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 62
Loc: Where I'm At
It's just so hard for me to respect what someone writes if they are obviously without a clue. First off this is the Texas State Troopers, not some small town police force. Secondly, you do need some full contact sparring, but not in a round-robin, one opponent after the other manner.

The truth is that most of you guys has ever been in the military, government or part of a large state police force, so how do you know what's relevant for h2h combat in that type of job description? Is it because you train MMA or some other combat SPORT like boxing and now think that gives you the right to take this death so lightly because you think your harsh training is an end-all-be-all method?

Take your your own mentation and life for granted; cops need their brains and health to keep working. Anyway, what about premorbidity? Do you even know what that means? How do you know if someone doesn't have an existing head injury or problem, like an aneurysm?

I love how nonmedically trained people on this forum like to speak out their arses. I also wonder how JKogas can belittle and even curse at posters with little-to-no repercussions. It's unfair and I now doubt him more than most because of his approach and narrow thought processes. Just my opinion.

If you are training to fight by kicking your own butt on a continuous basis then you're not smart, PERIOD. If you are a sadist or masochist or a combo of both don't let your neuroses speak for what you want to be true. It's pathetic and weak.

As a cop or soldier in the modern world you need to understand some basic principles of unarmed conflict. You don't need BB level training and you definitely shouldn't be required to bludgeon your brain for some hypothetical B.S. that has a 98% likelihood of never happening. Punching bad guys in the face or head is a recipe for litigation. Restraining them and teaching arts that allow you to restrain and submit without incurring or delivering strikes to the head is a plus.

I boxed and I'll tell you it is not enough. It is for the ring and NOT the street. Your hands never get use to making a full and proper bare-fist due to the wraps. Your hands wind up taking a lot of punishment due to the saftey you feel from wearing pillows on your hands. That's not to say that as a boxer you won't know how to strike with your fists, it's just that without gloves it is a COMPLETELY different approach and feel.

Boxing is not a MA and it has no place in police training IMHO. Some of its concepts do, but most of what you learn in the gym or ring means diddly when it comes to training for police or trooper work.

Plus you people sound like calloused a-holes, putting training philosophies over real lives. The dude died and he probably would have NEVER had to punch someone or receive a punch to the head in his REAL job. Again, it shows how narrow your scopes and experiences in the concrete world are.
_________________________
Verily and mayhaps, the morrow beckons, like watchtower beacons, and war does to weapons...

Top
#314058 - 09/23/07 11:00 PM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: Unyu]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Typical condecsending BS from our friend Unyu.

Don't tell ME about talking out of my ass, junior. My dad was a probation officer in Washington, DC, and two of my best friends are police officers in Baltimore, MD. I am very aware of the kind of things that happen to them and what kind of training is beneficial.

Quote:

you definitely shouldn't be required to bludgeon your brain for some hypothetical B.S. that has a 98% likelihood of never happening. Punching bad guys in the face or head is a recipe for litigation.




Litigation. Perhaps in Bucktooth, Texas you don't have suspects that resist arrest. But in a major urban area like Baltimore, or Chicago or Los Angelos, you are damned right that officers get into fisticuffs on a daily basis. A FEMALE friend that works in an undercover drug unit probably gets into more fights in one day than your ass has probably ever been in.

It is indeed a tragedy that the officer died in the course of training, and I never tried to minimize it. I actually agree with you about restraint training for officers. But if you think they "don't need" striking training as well, you ARE ignorant.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#314059 - 09/23/07 11:06 PM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: Unyu]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Gentlemen...

Top
#314060 - 09/24/07 02:14 AM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: oldman]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Gentlemen...





...back to your corner?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

Top
#314061 - 09/24/07 07:44 AM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: ButterflyPalm]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Unyu, Unsa, Multiversed......Welcome BACK Dr. Krunk!

Top
#314062 - 09/24/07 08:07 AM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: Unyu]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


If you are training to fight by kicking your own butt on a continuous basis then you're not smart, PERIOD. If you are a sadist or masochist or a combo of both don't let your neuroses speak for what you want to be true. It's pathetic and weak.

As a cop or soldier in the modern world you need to understand some basic principles of unarmed conflict. You don't need BB level training and you definitely shouldn't be required to bludgeon your brain for some hypothetical B.S. that has a 98% likelihood of never happening. Punching bad guys in the face or head is a recipe for litigation. Restraining them and teaching arts that allow you to restrain and submit without incurring or delivering strikes to the head is a plus.

I boxed and I'll tell you it is not enough. It is for the ring and NOT the street. Your hands never get use to making a full and proper bare-fist due to the wraps. Your hands wind up taking a lot of punishment due to the saftey you feel from wearing pillows on your hands. That's not to say that as a boxer you won't know how to strike with your fists, it's just that without gloves it is a COMPLETELY different approach and feel.

Boxing is not a MA and it has no place in police training IMHO. Some of its concepts do, but most of what you learn in the gym or ring means diddly when it comes to training for police or trooper work.

Plus you people sound like calloused a-holes, putting training philosophies over real lives. The dude died and he probably would have NEVER had to punch someone or receive a punch to the head in his REAL job. Again, it shows how narrow your scopes and experiences in the concrete world are.




Hi Unyu.

My thoughts. I agree that there is a huge difference between boxing and punching with out gloves.
Both have their good and bad points. I think the question about the use of strikes in a persons job, and if they should be trained or not, would depend on the enviroment they are working in.

I take your point about the demise of the guy but you might end up getting banned again which would be a great shame as I like your input be it blunt or not.

How do you see it that LEO;s should be trained?

In this country(UK)it seems most arent or get very little training. This is more than likely due to the goverments idea of correctness.
Jude

Top
#314063 - 09/24/07 09:15 AM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: jude33]
Joss Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 567
I think, if anyone ever really looked at the subject of empty hand/stick training for local and probably state level LE in the US, the real scandal is not so much the quality as the quantity.

Basically, cadets receive it (whatever "it" is) at the academy and that's it. No more. Notice the article said the guy was a recruit.

In the "real world", training dollars follow the highest liability risk. Nowdays, that's bad shootings and collateral damage from high-speed chases.

Firearms training? Academy. Probably re-qualify once a year.
Emergency vehicle? Academy MUST PASS. MAYBE some periodic follow up.
Empty hand or w/stick? Academy familiarization - that's it.

So, in a nutshell, their training is about like a novice going to a "self-defense" seminar... though it might be a multi-day seminar in a police academy. But, once it's over it stops. You're free to make your own assessment of that kind of effectiveness.

"...But consultants hired by the department after Carty's death recommended the drill be eliminated because it caused too many head injuries and did not involve realistic situations...."

If you accept "fight like you train" as a doctrine, justifying this drill is probably very difficult. My guess is that this Texas DPS drill was probably no more than a rite of passage hazing, thinly disguised as something useful. Cops don't use boxing to arrest people. Their mission is to secure people, and beating them down is very risky, PR and liability wise. A cop getting into a boxing situation on the street indicates a situation well out of control.

"...The department also banned all other exercises that involve hitting or other hard contact between trainees."

At face value, this is just a typical dumb government over reaction. We (here) have been over this subject soooo many times. There HAS to be resistance training for effectiveness. And just because LE are not supposed to respond to a punch with a punch, it doesn't mean being prepared to receive one is worthless.

But keep in mind that the media is the source of all this "information".

Top
#314064 - 09/25/07 05:39 AM Re: texas police to stop sparring [Re: Joss]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I think, if anyone ever really looked at the subject of empty hand/stick training for local and probably state level LE in the US, the real scandal is not so much the quality as the quantity.

Basically, cadets receive it (whatever "it" is) at the academy and that's it. No more. Notice the article said the guy was a recruit.

In the "real world", training dollars follow the highest liability risk. Nowdays, that's bad shootings and collateral damage from high-speed chases.

Firearms training? Academy. Probably re-qualify once a year.
Emergency vehicle? Academy MUST PASS. MAYBE some periodic follow up.
Empty hand or w/stick? Academy familiarization - that's it.

So, in a nutshell, their training is about like a novice going to a "self-defense" seminar... though it might be a multi-day seminar in a police academy. But, once it's over it stops. You're free to make your own assessment of that kind of effectiveness.

"...But consultants hired by the department after Carty's death recommended the drill be eliminated because it caused too many head injuries and did not involve realistic situations...."

If you accept "fight like you train" as a doctrine, justifying this drill is probably very difficult. My guess is that this Texas DPS drill was probably no more than a rite of passage hazing, thinly disguised as something useful. Cops don't use boxing to arrest people. Their mission is to secure people, and beating them down is very risky, PR and liability wise. A cop getting into a boxing situation on the street indicates a situation well out of control.

"...The department also banned all other exercises that involve hitting or other hard contact between trainees."

At face value, this is just a typical dumb government over reaction. We (here) have been over this subject soooo many times. There HAS to be resistance training for effectiveness. And just because LE are not supposed to respond to a punch with a punch, it doesn't mean being prepared to receive one is worthless.

But keep in mind that the media is the source of all this "information".




Good points Joss

Jude

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >






Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga