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#312987 - 01/06/07 03:07 PM Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi)
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Well, hopefully we can ignore the politics of TKD for a while, and to help us on our way I'd like to ask about the twisting kick, technically (meaning rarely ) called in our ITF school "bituro chagi."

First of all, I find the kick really hard to perform. It requires flexibility in unusual places and forces the body into an untenable feeling position. I wonder if I am alone on this, or whether others of you have similar problems.

Furthermore, what makes it unique, compared to say a front snap kick, which I think is targeted at similar points. Thirdly, is it possible to get the kick much higher than abdomen height- and is there a reason why you would want to do this. Basically, is twisting kick in any way actually a useful kick? So far I just find it technically very fustrating for few benefits.

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#312988 - 01/06/07 03:13 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I'm not sure of what this kick is, could you break it down for me so that I may better understand? We may have the same kick in our curriculm but just under a different name. I have to admit, we don't get into the "actual" names such as Bituro Chagi as for most to remember this would be difficult. We stick to basic names or with many things, make up names ourselves so that others can relate to it better.

Thanks
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#312989 - 01/06/07 05:40 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Dereck]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Sure. Here's a description of it, however I don't think it'll help you visualise it much

http://www.tkdtutor.com/09Techniques/Kicks/KickTechniques/Twist.htm

And here is an image of the finishing position of the kick:

http://tkdfm.taekwondo.cz/newspic/clanek117.inc.1.jpg

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#312990 - 01/06/07 05:47 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
Mr_Heretik Offline
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Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
Sorry Supremor, but from the descriptions, I visualize something like the Hurricane Kick from Street Fighter, except not in the air.

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#312991 - 01/06/07 06:00 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Mr_Heretik]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I've found a video!

Here is a video of a twisting kick:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvWD7DbYZ6A

The guy performing it looks like a WTF practitioner, so I assume that it must be in the WTF sylabus as well.

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#312992 - 01/06/07 06:25 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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The twist kick is a very unique weapon in the TKD arsenal.It is also very awkward to perform, as it goes in a way that is kind of unnatural to our bodies movements. What makes it unique is its potential targets as to where the opponent may be standing. Typically, if an opponent is in front of you but bladed to your posture, a low twist kick can get to the groin nicely. If the opponent is say on about a 45 degree angle, the target can now become the slor plexus. The hardest one also depends upon your flexabilty, as an opponent can be on your extreme right/left and you can go for the face. It is better to see a visual, but again, a very unique weapon.

VDJ

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#312993 - 01/06/07 06:27 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes, twisting kick is called bituro chagi in Korean. In the ITF sylabus we have a very standardized terminology & nomenclature. It allows us to keep the techniques standardized & allows everyone to understand what we mean, when a question like this comes up. In addition, Korean terminology is required, as for international events, it is used along with English. It also allows non-english speaking Countries to follow as well, as it is a Korean Art.

Getting back to the kick. It is very hard. The reason being is that many people confuse or compare it to a front snap kick. Once that is let to happen, many will just stick to the very easy, basic & effective front snap kick. This however limits your arsenal of weapons.

A front snap kick is used against an opponent that is in front of you. A twisting kick can be used against an opponent:
1- in front of you (low) kicking the inner thigh
2- to the side of you (middle) kicking the groin
3- or behind you (hign) kicking the face

In order for a twisting kick to be effective the chamber or previous position must be worked in isolation of the technique. It also has to be stretched that way as well. It is introduced in the Chang Hon Tuls at the BB level, with low in GaeBaek (1st dan) & EuiAm (2nd dan), middle in SamIl(3rd Dan) & high in MoonMoo (4th Dan). I introduce it to color belts at 5th grade green belt. It has to be practiced against targets & focus pads. Even the video had the performer not getting the proper position (not that I can do better, I CAN'T!). Notice how the boards are angled to allow the tool to make contact. The boards should be held straight up & down, at a 90 degree angle to the floor.

Some of the best kickers of this kick were GM Chang Keun Choi & GM Kwang Jo Choi. Even at their senior years, they can still do it where they can whack someone standing behind them.

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#312994 - 01/06/07 06:29 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
Mr_Heretik Offline
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I always called that an inverted roundhouse. I've only used it after a spin, when the opponent is probably expecting a tornado roundhouse. Unfortunately the WTF isn't as standardized.

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#312995 - 01/06/07 06:34 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Mr_Heretik]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Never thought of it after a spin. It is also done flying. An inverted roundhouse? Isn't is going the same direction as your roundhouse kick?

Left twisting kick goes the same way as a right leg roundhouse (turning kick/dolyo chagi) doesn't it?

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#312996 - 01/06/07 06:38 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Thats the right idea, except your targets are a little off the textbook answer, sorry if I am being too picky. It is a shame that it isn't utilized more, especially in sparring. Not many would expect it. That was one of the main reasons why the Founder insisted that free sparring didn't take place till 4th grade blue belt. This way, students would have more than the few basic techniques that most cling too. Just like you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

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#312997 - 01/06/07 06:46 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
Mr_Heretik Offline
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Yes ITFunity, a left leg twisting kick would go in the same direction as a right leg roundhouse kick. I just called it an inverted roundhouse.

If done after a spinning jump in sparring it usually catches them off guard. Try it out!

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#312998 - 01/06/07 07:07 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Mr_Heretik]
clmibb Offline
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Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1035
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I use the twisting kick in sparring all the time. I love the kick. I can usually get it as high as my shoulder (I'm 5'6") but in sparring I only get it just above the waist. I like to wedge it between their guard and their belt. I'm left handed and try my hardest to get the person to switch sides (people usually spar with their right foot forward) and put their left (and usually weaker side) foot out front. I'll switch to an open stance (where both person's bodies are facing the same way) and keep jabbing with twisting kicks and side kicks. People usually get tired of this so they switch sides thus putting their weaker side up front with my strong side.

Casey
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#312999 - 01/06/07 07:20 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
I was using that kick in my early years! I was a yellow belt in WTF and my only experience before that was a Japanese style Karate. Hell I thought I made that kick up since I was never taught it and never saw anyone else do it.

I would use this kick in competition after a series of front kicks. I started doing it I think during a tournament. I was very fast with my kicking, especially my turning kicks but I felt that I lacked control so I rarely did turning kicks in competition. I used the basic kicks, front kick, side kick, round kick and hook kick. Now one tournament my front kick was not getting in and I was trying to find a way to get around the low blocking so I tried a half low inside to out crescent but I wound snap the kick like a front kick but with more hip twisting and it worked! I thought cool kick! I never knew that it had a name until now. Hummm, I wonder if I invented this kick and someone copied it and gave it a name.

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#313000 - 01/06/07 09:43 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
MattJ Offline
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Heh. Believe it or not, I have trained this twisting kick a bit as well. This could be a useful kick used to the groin, or perhaps the inside of the knee, but I never found much power in it as the height went up over the waist. I prefer to use crescent/axe kicks for high power shots.

RazorFoot does an interesting version, where he uses the outside edge of his heel. He kicks the heel up and away from his body and torques the hips, ending with the knee pointed down, and the heel pointed up. Surprisingly powerful kick to the body or groin, although height is obviously limited.
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#313001 - 01/07/07 09:27 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: MattJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes, we have a crescent kck, but that is purely a defensive kick. The vertical (inward or outward direction)kick would be the offensive variation of that, which has a different motion than our crescent kick. We do not have an axe kick, or rather have 2 (different terminology). One would be a downward kick, which has an arch to it, (either inward or outward) or a pick shape kick, straight up & down.

You would be surprised, as I was, when you see someone with the capability of kicking a high twisting kick, as it has power. Please just remember, that the different heights have different target locations, with high being to your side rear. I would guess that your axe & crescent kicks are kicking to your front.

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#313002 - 01/07/07 12:03 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
The general came to me in a dream and reminded me there was a picture of someone doing something like a sitting twistinbg kick in his TKD text book (really!).

Seems if the person next to you is talking to much you can twist kick them from a sitting position.

I think it is also useful if someone is close to you, almost alongside you. Perhaps you step to the side to avoid a punch and twist kick to the face.

I've seen guys like Mr Dave Oliver do a high section one in slow motion. Master Frank Murphy also does a mean one.
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#313003 - 01/07/07 08:14 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
sarang Offline
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Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Belgium
In WTF is that kick also named "bitureo chagi".

It is not used in competition match... but great in a free sparring (without chest protector) this kick is just so great, noboby expect it.
... But tooooo hard to perform correctly
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#313004 - 01/08/07 06:00 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Read the stuff, looked at the picture and it did not help at all. Watched the video and I have to be honest, as a WTF TKD'ist I've never used this, seen it or trained it. However we are not your ordinary school.
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#313005 - 01/08/07 06:07 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Dereck]
clmibb Offline
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Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 1035
Loc: South Texas, US
Dereck picture a front snap kick (some call it a front kick) now take your extended foot and turn it outward. That's the best way I can describe it without going up to Canada and showing you myself.

Casey
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#313006 - 01/08/07 06:15 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: clmibb]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Ah ... no visit? After watching the video I understand the kick it is just I've never seen it before. It is a new one for me and I don't see me adding it to my training. Interesting that there are other kicks out there that I'm not familiar with. I thought I'd seen them all but I stand corrected.
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#313007 - 01/09/07 06:23 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Dereck]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I agree with you Dereck. I have to learn the kick, but I don't see myself spending too long perfecting it. There are just more useful kicks to practice, and I see little use for it compared to the usefullness of a front-kick, side-kick or turning kick.

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#313008 - 01/09/07 09:03 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
tkd_high_green Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
I think it depends on how flexible a person is as to its effectiveness. I have to learn it as it's part of one of my future patterns, Gae Baek, if for no other reason, and my cousin had to do it for his break at his black belt testing.

The big advantage that I see is that people don't expect an attack to come from that direction as its not exactly a natural direction to kick from.

Laura

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#313009 - 01/09/07 12:25 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
First offÖ I read that as ďBurritoĒ Chagi Ė I assumed it was Korean for a kick with a moist prize at the end.

I have not read the whole thread so this may be a repeate, if so sorry...
I LOVE this kick, my favorite way to use it requires some balance though. Iíll try to explain the best I can.

I am going to explain this as it rolled in my 2nd degree test, I hope it makes sense.
Standing left side forward in a VERY short ridding stance sitting low with the knees bent. My opponent commited, with this I threw a jumping back kick (targeting the abdomen) with my right leg. This made contact and forced him to bend at the waist and drop his hands. From here rather than drop the kick I chambered the leg (almost in a side kick position), continuing the turn rolled my hips and threw an inside roundhouse (thatís what we call it), only this was thrown higher targeting the chest. This stood him back up and raised his hands. I followed this with a left leg round house again shooting low. This finished up with two punches to the chest (left side thrown as I set the roundhouse down followed with a hard right).

Combo would be:
Low (Abdomen) right leg jumping back kick
Middle (Chest) right leg inside roundhouse (donít set the leg down after the back kick)
Low (Abdomen) left roundhouse
Left (Chest) punch
Right (Chest) punch

To stretch for the kick I sit down with the bottoms of my feet together and push the knees to the ground.

-JBC-


Edited by jonnyboxcutter (01/09/07 12:42 PM)
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#313010 - 01/09/07 12:29 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I agree with you Dereck. I have to learn the kick, but I don't see myself spending too long perfecting it. There are just more useful kicks to practice, and I see little use for it compared to the usefullness of a front-kick, side-kick or turning kick.




I respectfully suggest, that if this kick was introduced to you at an earlier time, it would have become a very usefull kick in your arsenal.
What I think some may be missing, is the location of your opponenet & the selection of a technique that will effectively do damage with the strike in that direction. I would add that some of you may be missing an opportunity to add to your ability to protect yourself & &/or score a point.

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#313011 - 01/09/07 12:38 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: tkd_high_green]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I think it depends on how flexible a person is as to its effectiveness. I have to learn it as it's part of one of my future patterns, Gae Baek, if for no other reason, and my cousin had to do it for his break at his black belt testing.
The big advantage that I see is that people don't expect an attack to come from that direction as its not exactly a natural direction to kick from. Laura




When do you learn GaeBaek?
You will also need it for EuiAm Tul, as a middle twisting kick for SamIl Tul & the high twisting kick in MoonMoo Tul.
I think studetns should practice breaking with twisting kick before BB.
Flexibility is needed for all kicks, not just twisting kick. The more flexible a person is, will aide all kicks, won't it?
You hit upon a very good tactic, no one ever expects it, becuse of where the defender & opponent are standing/facing. I think that students must be taught directions & what techniques are most suitable for the location of opponent. Front kick can not be compared nor should it be confused with a twisting kick. The targets & location of targets (with the exception of low twisting kick) are all different.

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#313012 - 01/09/07 12:38 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
This is a very effective kick once you figure it out. It can be used in a few different ways.

One way is to throw the timing of your turning kicks off - your kick is not thrown until youíre facing the opponent. If you have tagged them with a few turning kicks already throw one of these, they will block prematurely.

Another is a setup Ė Standing odd faced throw this with the front leg. From an opponents perspective the initial body torque looks kind of like a back leg round house kick.

Dereck/Supremor, seriously you should try it on a heavy bag and get used to it. If your not using this in class and you can get the flexibility down you will seriously mess with the head of the first person you hit it with. It seemingly comes out of now were, add a hard hip twist and you can take people off their feet with it.

-JBC-
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#313013 - 01/09/07 01:46 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
A quick addendum to my last postÖ
I just watched the Youtube video, I have used it from a back leg but I typically use it as a front leg or from a turning kick. The back leg for me just has too long of a trajectory, I could pull it off when I was younger but would not even try it now.

-JBC-
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#313014 - 01/09/07 02:03 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
GriffyGriff Offline
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Registered: 01/28/04
Posts: 414
Loc: Earth
Hi, Sorry I am a little late in this topic...

I, like JonnyBoxCutter LOVE this kick.

I have found it to be a very powerful kick and work on the heavy bag with this one frequently. I find that the kick can also serve to re-align you to your opponent's centre-line after you have been doing a barrage of spinning kicks.

In a Left Stance, hit with a (Right), high spinning hook kick / Turning Kick combination. Then as your right foot steps down (slightly right of your opponent's centre-line), hit with a Left high Bituro-Chagi, followed by a right hook kick to the other side of his head.

I also use it in the following hand-initiated combination:
Left Stance, Step-Drag High Left Jab, low right cross, high right Bituro-chagi

It is a beauty of a kick. I am sure that working on your butterfly stretch will allow you to become more effective with this kick.

Butterfly Stretch:
Sit on the floor with the soles of your feet touching each other and your heels as close to your groin as you can. Try to rest (or press) your knees on the floor. Once you are able to do this, then take the stretch further by resting your feet on some books.

Regards
Griff
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#313015 - 01/09/07 03:02 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: GriffyGriff]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
I started to use this kick because I am rather tall (all legs) and got sick of people jamming me up. If thrown from the front leg itís a very short and fast kick and is similar to the power of a back leg kick.

Using Clmibb as an example (she referenced her size thatís why). I am going to make the assumption that if her and I sparred we would size up as follows.

If Iím in her leg reach, Iím guessing any of my round kicks would make contact at about the Ĺ way point between my knee and my foot. Iím also assuming that if I were with in the reach of her hands my kicks would impact at about my knee. Within TKD sparring rules most of my kicks would be ineffective and my hands would not be really useful either (I would be just too close). With these assumptions being made, I would use this kick to back her up and gain the distance for a follow up kick/or punch thrown at full extension.

In this scenario the kick would be thrown with a with an upwards (approx 45 degree) trajectory and as Clmibb noted it can be slid between the guard and the belt.

-JBC-

Clmibb Ė Hope I didnít offend
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#313016 - 01/09/07 04:10 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
tkd_high_green Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
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Quote:

When do you learn GaeBaek?




Since its a black belt pattern, I would technically learn it once I get my black belt (at the end of the month) along with the two other black belt patterns, but in actuality, I learned GaeBaek several months ago.

As for the twisting kick, I was introduced to this kick fairly early on, green belt maybe, but we don't work it as often as we do other kicks.

Laura

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#313017 - 01/09/07 04:54 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
It seems that Dereck and I are in a minority.

ITFUnity, I understand the point you're making- that it is another kick in the arsenal and that it is a unique technique which is especially useful in certain situations. However, for me, the kick leaves one wide open for a shoot. That is because you have to put your body into a "twisted" position, where you don't have great balance and if the kick is caught or jammed then it is very easy to be thrown off balance. I wonder if this is why Dereck's instructor does not teach it, since he teaches grappling as a major part of the curriculum. I think that against an experienced wrestler or grappler, a twisting kick would be an easy target for a takedown.

JBC, I agree with you and clmibb that the kick is useful as a sparring technique because it is unpredictable. However, it strikes me that the main targets are areas that are off limits in TKD sparring- the groin and knee. The fact that one has to throw it at the abdomen(higher if you can), lowers its likelyhood to score because you are hitting at a spot where the guard will be anyway(hopefully). Getting your opponent to block prematurely is a very good point though, which I hadn't thought of, I generally don't bother to block much, I just keep my hands up and dodge the big shots.


The last thing I wanted to say- and it's a question- when I perform a twisting kick, I find I have to bend the supporting leg at the knee. Is this normal? When I don't bend the knee, I feel a lot of strain at the quadricep, is that a lack of flexibility (I have pretty good dynamic flexibility), or is it just a consequence of the body position?

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#313018 - 01/09/07 06:02 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
It seems that Supremer is reading my mind.

The kick is certainly interesting but again not something I would actively train to use. There are so many other kicks to use that most times it is the basics that work. With that said if I was actively competing in a Taekwondo format only then perhaps I would be looking for kicks like this or using flashier ones. But with my case, grappling has been a part of our curriculum and especially has grown in the last 2 years to a point where my focus has been primary this and TKD secondary. With this type of kick most certainly is a target for a trap/jam and sweep/trip/takedown.

Again, another kick that has its uses but with kicking and punching I tend to use the basics as the basics normally are what get us by and why they are the basics. And to be honest, I have problems using the basics from time to time so requires me to reply and retrain them.
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#313019 - 01/09/07 07:03 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
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Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Trust me, I fully understand both Dereck and your position, especially if your exposure to the kick is from the video only. It is a very awkward looking kick and personally I thought it looked like sh!t in the video but thatís just me. But honestly, when are looks more important than effectiveness.

Keep in mind Front kicks and Sidekicks come at you primarily in a straight line, round houses well the name kind of says it all. The guard you reference is good for these attacks. If you attempt to throw one of these kicks under the guard you will most likely hit an elbow. This kick (at least the way I deliver it) comes in at a much sharper upward angle and is delivered almost from the side of an opponent so typically the gap that is between the front elbow and the abdomen is way more than necessary to slid the kick into.

Quote:

I see little use for it compared to the usefulness of a front-kick, side-kick or turning kick.




My next comment is in NO means meant to come across as an Internet tough guy or anything like that, PLEASE donít read it that way.

Assuming you and I have similar sparring skills (one person is not substantially more dominate of a fighter than the other) I would be happy to spar under the rules that the only kick I can use is an inside front kick and itís variants and give you your full arsenal. Yea, in this case I would assume I would lose, I would be just too limited BUT (and that is a big but) it would be a frustrating fight for you at best and at worst a possible losing one. No matter the outcome it would be fun to try, I think.

-JBC-
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#313020 - 01/09/07 07:18 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Guys, I understand this kick is not for everybody and I really am not trying to come across too strong on this topic. It is an effective kick, at the least learn the kick and some of its applications you may be surprised at what you find. Worst-case scenario you at least understand what it looks like.

Off to class
-JBC-
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#313021 - 01/09/07 08:26 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: tkd_high_green]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Good luck on your test!

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#313022 - 01/09/07 08:33 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I also don't want to seem pushy, so I will back off. One of the limitations of this forum, is that it is difficult at times to get a point across in the same way as if we were face to face in a DoJang setting.
My gut tells me that if one was introduced to this kick at the proper time in training, plus had the instructor to guide you with its application, it might be something that would be more readily accepted & grasped.
Thanks.
As you can see, those that have been using it, feel strong about its use. While those that haven't aren't as comfortable. That is very natural & very understanding.

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#313023 - 01/09/07 10:06 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Yea, I had a 3-page reply to Dereckís post and decided to scrap it. It is too dang hard to explain the mechanics of a technique in text.

I guess the reason for my ďappreciationĒ if you will is because of my size. That kick was learned out of necessity; as I came through the ranks all I ever worked out with was tournament players and fairly good ones at that. I asked one of them how to gain some distance when people jam me and thatís what they showed me, I think I was yellow belt at the time; so from my perspective this is a basic kick.

-JBC-
The other thing is if I am passionate about something I tend to over analyze it so when I talk about it I look like a

A primary reason I am still single, I either know nothing or WAY TOO MUCH
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#313024 - 01/09/07 10:09 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:

However, for me, the kick leaves one wide open for a shoot.




Perhaps not, remember you are twisting the kick out, to at least a 45 degree angle depending on how flexible you are, so even though you are full facing, your opponent isn't in a position to necessarily take advantage of that.

As for balance, I think its pretty easy to recover from the kick and follow with other techniques.

I'd rather use a twisting kick than say a vertical kick any day. Thats much harder on your hips and feet, and leaves you wide open.

Laura

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#313025 - 01/09/07 10:31 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hmmm.... I thought this kick dropped off the syllabus a long long long while back... because no one knew what it did. Did some bright spark work out what this kick is used for??? :P

To answer Supremor's original questions:

1. First of all, I find the kick really hard to perform. It requires flexibility in unusual places and forces the body into an untenable feeling position. I wonder if I am alone on this, or whether others of you have similar problems.

It's no more difficult than a front snap kick...

2. Furthermore, what makes it unique, compared to say a front snap kick, which I think is targeted at similar points.

And what points would that be? There are some nice targets that a twist kick is specifically designed for - without having to shift your body and then do a front snap... hmmm.... that should give you a clue....

3. Thirdly, is it possible to get the kick much higher than abdomen height- and is there a reason why you would want to do this.

I wouldn't be using this kick (or any other kick for that matter) to kick any higher than say knee to mid-thigh....

4. Basically, is twisting kick in any way actually a useful kick?

Depends on what you're trying to kick. Again, some nice pressure points... oh... wait a minute... I don't want to give the game away... not just yet....

Let's just say, look at the angle, look at the height, look at possible targets when facing your opponent... then THINK... what happens if I take out THIS target....

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#313026 - 01/10/07 12:44 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Yea, I had a 3-page reply to Dereckís post and decided to scrap it. It is too dang hard to explain the mechanics of a technique in text.




Quote:

The other thing is if I am passionate about something I tend to over analyze it so when I talk about it I look like a




Hey no problems. If I was as passionate about TKD as I am grappling, perhaps all of the work I do and looking for new things I would have found this and tried to perfect it as well. With grappling I do this and find techniques and then take them to class to work with others until I've figured it out and make it my own. I just don't have the same passion about my TKD training as I do my grappling training ... so I understand your like of this technique and your use of it. For me TKD is about the basics and I don't compete in TKD competitions but I do in gi grappling and no gi submission wrestling. So again I totally understand where you are coming from.
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#313027 - 01/10/07 12:14 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Thanks for all the replies. I'm in no way trying to say that the kick is useless, andif you like it and it works, use it by all means. Personally, I just don't see many uses for it, and certainly not enough for the kick to be trained significantly.

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#313028 - 01/10/07 06:32 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Unless you see the utility in this kick, you will not understand why this kick even exists. Suffice to say, this is one of my favourite kicks, one which I find has more utility than a front snap.... YMMV.

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#313029 - 01/11/07 12:53 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: eyrie]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:

Unless you see the utility in this kick, you will not understand why this kick even exists. Suffice to say, this is one of my favourite kicks, one which I find has more utility than a front snap.... YMMV.




I love this kick also but to me the front kick is still the best! Well second best. The roundhouse is the best, that is of course my opinion.

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#313030 - 01/11/07 09:21 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Encyclopedia descriptions:

page 1

page 2

page 3

page 4

Hope this helps.
Laura

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#313031 - 01/11/07 01:44 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: tkd_high_green]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Probably another reason why I wouldn't use it, my body couldn't torque that way. Circular or linear basic kicks for me.
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#313032 - 01/11/07 03:32 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: BulldogTKD]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes, but with front kicks & turning kicks, the opponent is usually in a different location that they would be, where a twisting kick should/can be utilized.

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#313033 - 01/13/07 02:48 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Iím having a hard time with this ďis the bestĒ concept. If the opponent Iím facing does not offer something to hit with a front kick/round house/etc then what are they the best for??

-JBC-
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#313034 - 01/13/07 05:00 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Angles... angles... angles...

If you're not in position or range to properly deliver a front/side/roundhouse, BUT you are just within range to deliver a twisting kick to the inside thigh, would you take it?

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#313035 - 01/13/07 11:17 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: eyrie]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Quote:

you are just within range to deliver a twisting kick to the inside thigh, would you take it?




If you read my above posts, hell yea I would take it. But I am not so much talking about this kick or any other really, just this concept of one kick being the best. I donít get itÖ

-JBC
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#313036 - 01/15/07 08:59 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Quote:

Quote:

you are just within range to deliver a twisting kick to the inside thigh, would you take it?




If you read my above posts, hell yea I would take it. But I am not so much talking about this kick or any other really, just this concept of one kick being the best. I donít get itÖ

-JBC




To be fair, only BulldogTKD has mentioned the 'best' kicks...
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#313037 - 01/15/07 11:34 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: TimBlack]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Quote:

only BulldogTKD has mentioned the 'best' kicks...



To be honest, since he mentioned the same kicks as others did (front, round, etc) I didnít reread the thread I just assumed. Sorry about that.

-JBC-
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#313038 - 01/15/07 11:54 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: tkd_high_green]
Joe7987 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 317
Loc: Orlando, FL
Personally, I've been doing this kick since white belt..... and I am very excited about one day becoming effective with it.

My head instructor seems to really enjoy this kick, and when I spar with him, he always catches me off guard. The twist kick can be very deceptive if done properly, and that's where its strength lies.

And yes, it is VERY capable of being thrown high. My old head instructor told us this story of a master he once met. Apparently, when he got a new student, he would stand to the side of the student, with arm around his/her neck, just having a conversation. At one point during the conversation, he would throw the twist kick and stop at their face.

This is now one of my ex head instructor's goals. lol

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#313039 - 01/19/07 06:26 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I agree with VDJ's analysis of the kick.

On a personal note, because the kick is extremely awkward even after much practice a person is left off balanced when using it unless the attack is successful. I would prefer not to use it.
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#313040 - 01/20/07 12:02 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
One should not be off balance. If they are, they are not doing the kick correctly. I have great difficulty doing it myself. However, those that can use it, it really is awesome.

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#313041 - 02/22/07 10:19 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
mongolianmonk Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 5
I am not quite sure but i believe that I am thinking of the same kick. A Bi-Chugi or in your case a Bituro Chugi is mostly, in our school, used as a sparring move for when the oppenent is facing back to your forward leg. To execute the Bi chugi you would take for example your right leg and some what cross your right leg infront of your left knee up in a forty five degree angle to the groin, solar plexis, or sternocleidomastoid muscle of the neck. I use this kick alot in sparring matches against the lower ranks (I know it sounds mean but they need to get used to surprise attacks) I use it when they think they can throw off my attacks by switching their front leg to the opposite of my leg which really makes it alot easier to perform a Bi Chugi. I may be wrong for I train TSD and as far as I can tell this is a TKD question.

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#313042 - 02/23/07 05:06 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

I agree with VDJ's analysis of the kick.

On a personal note, because the kick is extremely awkward even after much practice a person is left off balanced when using it unless the attack is successful. I would prefer not to use it.




Don't misunderstand me with this Tek, it is awkward to perform, but I too like the kick. Balance is not really an issue as much as flexibility. I can do the groin and solar plexus just fine. The kick to the face at my extreme right or left is not an option for me.

VDJ

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#313043 - 02/25/07 10:04 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
Shyro Offline
Member

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 55
I started Taekwondo pratice on a wtf affiliated school. Never saw this kick until a few years later when I praticed on a ITF affiliated school.

My first impression was: "What the hell is that?..."

But I can now understand it has advantages. It's unpredictable, especially after a few punches have been exchanged. Nobody usually expects that a leg will climb to the face like that...

But this as already been said. Now, I can split to both sides, and do frontal split. I consider myself to have good enough flexibility but I can't perform this kick correctly.:)

Anyone can suggest static flexibility exercices used to improve the ability to perform this particular movement?

Thanks
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#313044 - 02/25/07 11:36 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Shyro]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Never saw this kick until a few years later when I praticed on a ITF affiliated school.
Anyone can suggest static flexibility exercices used to improve the ability to perform this particular movement?
Thanks





Hi!
I don't know if this is what you mean or if this will help you, but the way I have success with teaching this kick is as follows:
If kicking with the right foot, stand on your left leg & pick up your right foot. Bring it to your the left hip side of your body, pulling the foot up towards the ceiling, as high as you can. Then take the right foot with your right hand & move it out to the right side, in the mtion of the kick towards where your target would be. For high twisting kick, repeat with the assistance with someone to do the latter part for you.
Once they or you are comfortable with the chamber or previous position, it is vital to use the kick against soft(at 1st) target pads.
Good luck!

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