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#313017 - 01/09/07 04:54 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
It seems that Dereck and I are in a minority.

ITFUnity, I understand the point you're making- that it is another kick in the arsenal and that it is a unique technique which is especially useful in certain situations. However, for me, the kick leaves one wide open for a shoot. That is because you have to put your body into a "twisted" position, where you don't have great balance and if the kick is caught or jammed then it is very easy to be thrown off balance. I wonder if this is why Dereck's instructor does not teach it, since he teaches grappling as a major part of the curriculum. I think that against an experienced wrestler or grappler, a twisting kick would be an easy target for a takedown.

JBC, I agree with you and clmibb that the kick is useful as a sparring technique because it is unpredictable. However, it strikes me that the main targets are areas that are off limits in TKD sparring- the groin and knee. The fact that one has to throw it at the abdomen(higher if you can), lowers its likelyhood to score because you are hitting at a spot where the guard will be anyway(hopefully). Getting your opponent to block prematurely is a very good point though, which I hadn't thought of, I generally don't bother to block much, I just keep my hands up and dodge the big shots.


The last thing I wanted to say- and it's a question- when I perform a twisting kick, I find I have to bend the supporting leg at the knee. Is this normal? When I don't bend the knee, I feel a lot of strain at the quadricep, is that a lack of flexibility (I have pretty good dynamic flexibility), or is it just a consequence of the body position?

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#313018 - 01/09/07 06:02 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
It seems that Supremer is reading my mind.

The kick is certainly interesting but again not something I would actively train to use. There are so many other kicks to use that most times it is the basics that work. With that said if I was actively competing in a Taekwondo format only then perhaps I would be looking for kicks like this or using flashier ones. But with my case, grappling has been a part of our curriculum and especially has grown in the last 2 years to a point where my focus has been primary this and TKD secondary. With this type of kick most certainly is a target for a trap/jam and sweep/trip/takedown.

Again, another kick that has its uses but with kicking and punching I tend to use the basics as the basics normally are what get us by and why they are the basics. And to be honest, I have problems using the basics from time to time so requires me to reply and retrain them.
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#313019 - 01/09/07 07:03 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Trust me, I fully understand both Dereck and your position, especially if your exposure to the kick is from the video only. It is a very awkward looking kick and personally I thought it looked like sh!t in the video but thatís just me. But honestly, when are looks more important than effectiveness.

Keep in mind Front kicks and Sidekicks come at you primarily in a straight line, round houses well the name kind of says it all. The guard you reference is good for these attacks. If you attempt to throw one of these kicks under the guard you will most likely hit an elbow. This kick (at least the way I deliver it) comes in at a much sharper upward angle and is delivered almost from the side of an opponent so typically the gap that is between the front elbow and the abdomen is way more than necessary to slid the kick into.

Quote:

I see little use for it compared to the usefulness of a front-kick, side-kick or turning kick.




My next comment is in NO means meant to come across as an Internet tough guy or anything like that, PLEASE donít read it that way.

Assuming you and I have similar sparring skills (one person is not substantially more dominate of a fighter than the other) I would be happy to spar under the rules that the only kick I can use is an inside front kick and itís variants and give you your full arsenal. Yea, in this case I would assume I would lose, I would be just too limited BUT (and that is a big but) it would be a frustrating fight for you at best and at worst a possible losing one. No matter the outcome it would be fun to try, I think.

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#313020 - 01/09/07 07:18 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Guys, I understand this kick is not for everybody and I really am not trying to come across too strong on this topic. It is an effective kick, at the least learn the kick and some of its applications you may be surprised at what you find. Worst-case scenario you at least understand what it looks like.

Off to class
-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#313021 - 01/09/07 08:26 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: tkd_high_green]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Good luck on your test!

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#313022 - 01/09/07 08:33 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I also don't want to seem pushy, so I will back off. One of the limitations of this forum, is that it is difficult at times to get a point across in the same way as if we were face to face in a DoJang setting.
My gut tells me that if one was introduced to this kick at the proper time in training, plus had the instructor to guide you with its application, it might be something that would be more readily accepted & grasped.
Thanks.
As you can see, those that have been using it, feel strong about its use. While those that haven't aren't as comfortable. That is very natural & very understanding.

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#313023 - 01/09/07 10:06 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: ITFunity]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Yea, I had a 3-page reply to Dereckís post and decided to scrap it. It is too dang hard to explain the mechanics of a technique in text.

I guess the reason for my ďappreciationĒ if you will is because of my size. That kick was learned out of necessity; as I came through the ranks all I ever worked out with was tournament players and fairly good ones at that. I asked one of them how to gain some distance when people jam me and thatís what they showed me, I think I was yellow belt at the time; so from my perspective this is a basic kick.

-JBC-
The other thing is if I am passionate about something I tend to over analyze it so when I talk about it I look like a

A primary reason I am still single, I either know nothing or WAY TOO MUCH
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#313024 - 01/09/07 10:09 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Quote:

However, for me, the kick leaves one wide open for a shoot.




Perhaps not, remember you are twisting the kick out, to at least a 45 degree angle depending on how flexible you are, so even though you are full facing, your opponent isn't in a position to necessarily take advantage of that.

As for balance, I think its pretty easy to recover from the kick and follow with other techniques.

I'd rather use a twisting kick than say a vertical kick any day. Thats much harder on your hips and feet, and leaves you wide open.

Laura

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#313025 - 01/09/07 10:31 PM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: Supremor]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hmmm.... I thought this kick dropped off the syllabus a long long long while back... because no one knew what it did. Did some bright spark work out what this kick is used for??? :P

To answer Supremor's original questions:

1. First of all, I find the kick really hard to perform. It requires flexibility in unusual places and forces the body into an untenable feeling position. I wonder if I am alone on this, or whether others of you have similar problems.

It's no more difficult than a front snap kick...

2. Furthermore, what makes it unique, compared to say a front snap kick, which I think is targeted at similar points.

And what points would that be? There are some nice targets that a twist kick is specifically designed for - without having to shift your body and then do a front snap... hmmm.... that should give you a clue....

3. Thirdly, is it possible to get the kick much higher than abdomen height- and is there a reason why you would want to do this.

I wouldn't be using this kick (or any other kick for that matter) to kick any higher than say knee to mid-thigh....

4. Basically, is twisting kick in any way actually a useful kick?

Depends on what you're trying to kick. Again, some nice pressure points... oh... wait a minute... I don't want to give the game away... not just yet....

Let's just say, look at the angle, look at the height, look at possible targets when facing your opponent... then THINK... what happens if I take out THIS target....

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#313026 - 01/10/07 12:44 AM Re: Twisting Kick? (bituro chagi) [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Yea, I had a 3-page reply to Dereckís post and decided to scrap it. It is too dang hard to explain the mechanics of a technique in text.




Quote:

The other thing is if I am passionate about something I tend to over analyze it so when I talk about it I look like a




Hey no problems. If I was as passionate about TKD as I am grappling, perhaps all of the work I do and looking for new things I would have found this and tried to perfect it as well. With grappling I do this and find techniques and then take them to class to work with others until I've figured it out and make it my own. I just don't have the same passion about my TKD training as I do my grappling training ... so I understand your like of this technique and your use of it. For me TKD is about the basics and I don't compete in TKD competitions but I do in gi grappling and no gi submission wrestling. So again I totally understand where you are coming from.
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