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#312475 - 01/04/07 04:29 PM Head and shoulder position
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I have asked a question about head and shoulder position during patterns/kata in the TKD section.

I would like to know what older style's do with theres during kata and the reasons.
Cheers.
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#312476 - 01/04/07 10:20 PM Re: Head and shoulder position [Re: matxtx]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
representing a style of traditional shotokan i'll take a shot at it.

ok, the first reason to keep you head up and chest open is because its the natural body posture, it allows your heart and lungs to opperate at there peak efficiancy.

second, the japanease term i've been tought to describe this is enzinomatzuke (yeah, sp for sure) one interpertation of this term is "eyes like looking at a distant moutian" or, by pulling your head back out of the typical "boxer guard" you put more distance between your eyes and your opponent giving you slightly more time to react, it is also a good way to keep your vision open so that you can see any incoming attack (not to say that the 'boxer guard" won't let you either) and therefore a lessed chance of not seeing that looping hook or sneaky knee.

next, by bringing your head back away from your opponent you are protecting a very vital and vunerable target the best way there is, by keeping distance.

now, the counter is that its not natural and when the adrenaline starts to kick in the foward type leaning head bobing action is more natural, and in truth it is. also for many tourniments it is advatageous to adopt the cover and weaving method, allowing people to cover,recover, and counter quicker. but the truth is that the body dynamics and the kineslology make keeping your posture more advangegous in terms of speed, power, and ability to react. but the difference is minimal untill arond 3rd dan level, it takes about that long to develop the ues of that posture nder stress, untill then people are just gonna do what "feels "right, regardless.

one last point, the "boxer guard" posture is usualy only adopted in tourniment or sport fights anyway, honestly now, seeing this postre adopted by "sterrt fighters" is just a kind of "sport fight" in the street. a "real" self defence situation is not going to allow you time to recover to that position, most cases is just right into action with no dancing arond or crap. anything less is just a gloryfied street fight ego contest.

now reading what i just wrote it could come across as prety anti "boxer",lol. when actually i love the sport and agree completly that the use of the chin tucked, shoulders up guard does most definatly have a place and has proven its self dominant in nearly all martial sport situations. but you asked "the" question to a traditionalist, sparing and self defence are to different things.

i would like to read what anyone else has to say about the topic, im sure it's got mixed feelings.

yours in life
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#312477 - 01/04/07 11:18 PM Re: Head and shoulder position [Re: student_of_life]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Since you were interested in what other people have to say, you can catch my TKD oriented response in this thread:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...=0#Post15911075
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#312478 - 01/05/07 12:59 PM Re: Head and shoulder position [Re: student_of_life]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I see some points there to consider and agree or disagree on.Cheers.

I'm not talking a boxer or any particular style though.
And I dont think it matters what the situation is..sport or real or self defence.(personaly fighting back is self defence so learning to fight is self defence)

If someone attacks you ,they attack you....they punch you or whatever ..no matter where you are or what your doing its stil something coming at you to deal with ,so why be told to react head up shoulders open.What are the physical ,logical reasons for this during patterns/kata?
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#312479 - 01/05/07 04:27 PM Re: Head and shoulder position [Re: matxtx]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
good questions!

there was a little test i did to convince a guy i used to train with the use of maintaining a upright body posture, you might want to try it out with a few friends for lagh. they don't have to have any martial arts training.

try this: i was the attacker, and i got a fellow student to play the defender. the scene was that i was going to ask him for the time then sucker punch him while he looked down, and tell him that your going to attack him. also have a few people for the "audiance" standing no more then 10 feet away. then ask the guy for the time like you said, and when he looks down run at your audiance screaming and like your going to attack, the reaction i got was for the 3 guys including my friend who asked a similar question to you all closed there eyes half trned away and put there hands up and open. not eactly a fighting stance.

the point i was making with the little "drill" was put the fear of the unkown into them, i told them one thing and did another. which is the essence of the self defence situation i mentioned, which is different from a sparing match. none of them had time to adopt a fighting stance, infact they all reacted poorly...but as expected.

there is a difference between a "fight" and a defence situation. a fight you can walk away from, anything else is a threat to your person and should be delt with accordingly. i feel like i should say it again, you can walk away from a fight, someone pushing you around and calling you names will escalate into a fight, where the 2 of you trade punches. a defence situation is a direct threat to your life or a loved ones life, in that situation you get the hell outta there as fast as posible. the worst that will happen in a fight is a bruised ego and face, now, they can escalate into a stabing or such, but thats a situation you should have seen coming and gotten away from befor it got to that point.

i hope you understand the idea im after here. there is a difference. people attacking you can have any different reason and motive, they shouldn't all be treated with the "nuke em all" kind of thought process. like i said about the fight, you can walk away. or!, just side step and block or throw him/her. you don't need to hit them or show any escalated form of aggression. and adopting a fighting stance is one way of provoking a would be attacker believe it or not, many scum bags see it as a challange. and they therefore increase the threat level.

what are we told to do to avoid bear attacks?, get in a ball and stay in a ball, other wise your tost. you don't fight a bear. (well maybe GSP could)

people who advocate the use of a guard position say that (i've been told that) by schrunching you neck and raising your hands to protect your head you limit your opponent from attacking your most vital areas. half truth. im from newfoundland and ive seen more then one 40 year old bayman kick a 20something right in the pills for trying to start something. the best defence is not a good defence or a better offence, its distance. you can get punched if your out of arms lenght, you can't be shot from 20 miles away. the trouble is being to slow and getting your protetive distance covered by a quick guy who hits you fast and till you stop moving.

keep yours hands up all the time of course, but don't threaten. keep moving, keep talking him down. and run like the flash the first chance you get. not exactly what heman would do, but try and tell your grandmother that youd rather fight a group of 9 [censored] then live to see her next christmas dinner.

fighting as you put it can be avoided, and it takes more strenght then many realize. but if your that up on the idea of being rocky, then you'll learn your leason sooner or later, thers always a bigger fish. but i don't think your that kind of guy, live smart my man.

i hope that covered it, if not im sure i'll hear more,lol.

your in life
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its not supposed to make sense

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#312480 - 01/05/07 04:38 PM Re: Head and shoulder position [Re: matxtx]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
*What are the physical ,logical reasons for this during patterns/kata?*

sorry i thought i answered that, it alwasy seems more concise in my own head,lol.

we strive for this upright posture because its the natural position from which the human body is most able to move in any direction with the least delay. by leaning foward any ammount you limit you ability to move backward by exactly the ammount that you enhanced the ability to move foward.

not saying that any guard position is weak, or slow, or open. im saying that every single body position has its weaknesses and they should be studied to be exploited.

for example in judo i was taught that theres 1000 counter throws for every throw. why can't the same principal be applyed to stand up strike fighting? and with that in mind then the use of any position that limits movement in any direaction in any way is detrimential to the defenders ability to destroy the attacker as fast as posible.

now, not many people have the skill to drop an attacker inside of 3 seconds, but thats one of the goals i train with in mind.

for an example look at chuck liddel when he fights, i know he leans in a bit and shuch things, but the man has his hands up all the time always aimed at his targets always ready to hit at the first moment available. he's just thinking "where am i going to hit next" he keeps his distance and when he's in punching range he unloads. not the best example as it is a sport situation, but do you get the point??

well im sure if i've been unclear, or unconvincing you'll let me know,lol.

yours in life
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#312481 - 01/05/07 08:53 PM Re: Head and shoulder position [Re: matxtx]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
sigh, all my mahy lines of text reduced to this,

http://iainabernethy.com/articles/The_Karate_Guard.asp

this man is a bunkai nut, he should have alot of answers for you.

yours in life
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#312482 - 01/06/07 10:09 AM Re: Head and shoulder position [Re: student_of_life]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Yea some good points about lots of things.Some i agree some i dont.Its going off into other areas though.lol

Im not talking about a gaurd specificaly,or hand position im not of talking of leaning .im not talking of moving away etc,I mean while doing a high block or low block or middle block or knife hand gaurding block or virualy any move in patterns/kata most are head upright and shoulders open.I was wondering why and if its done in older styles too.
I thought maybe it got lost or something as i could see no point in it.
Head up will help you move back at the moment of moving back yet at the point when yoou block whatever it isnt good.And to view the whole body as someone come in its not good to look straight ahead up.For me anyway.

Personal looking 'over my eybrow' and using my shoulder 'somehow' I feel more protected when i am doing whatever it is I am doing in the patterns at that second.

I now have some ideas why and will take them into account.

The link was about gaurding and hands and didnt mention the head or shoulders position,that I saw.

As for fightback verses self defence.Its not what I want to get into yet will say that there is no difference.Self defence is fighting back.
I see what your saying about fights yet i dont mean the word fighting as in 'fights'.
A animal will fightback against its preditor if its attacked...at that point its fighting back..its a fight.Its been cornered or whatever.Its attacked.It now fighing back.To survive.

Going into pre fight rituals and awareness is covered in other places on here and I agree dont fight if you can help.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#312483 - 01/06/07 11:02 AM Re: Head and shoulder position [Re: matxtx]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
sorry i rambeled for so freakin long,lol. sounds like you have your mind made up now anyways. and if you planing on doing any research into kata/forms and there application then the man in that link is a very good sorce.

all the best, sorry for going off topic again,lol.
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