From experience open hand techniques are much harder to train into students than closed fist techniques. Yet there are Chinese systems that consider the open hand techniques more advanced by far than closed fists.

The reasons are clear. The closed fist can strike to point and/or shearing plane, it does not permit as much variety as the open hand strikes to to shape the charge of the strike into the opponent.

But as I said it takes work to understand and use them.

Back in 1975 in NYC, there was a local fighter "Quick-Draw" McGraw who used only flurries of knife hand strikes in kumite, and most frequently was throwing so many repeated knife hand strikes, the closed fist fighters couldn't deal with them. I have not seen his like since.

CVV:

By OTS I meant off the subject, since I was talking about a different technique. I'd seen it used on this forum and elsewhere and was trying to be hip. I'm not a frequent poster and had assumed it was commonly used. I guess I will just have to wait until it's hip to be square again.

Your take on the first three steps in Seiuchin makes a lot more sense than trying to spearhand under the floating ribs, especially since you immediately turn in the direction you batted the opponent. I suppose once you are behind him you have a gi choke, ridgehand to the neck, and a neck-break. The third step then is some other problem, which explains why you pull him back, punch, and empi. I'll grab someone tomorrow to test this bunkai.

I know there are no ribs in the belly. My problem was that in a fighting situation the difference between jabbing under the ribs and into the ribs is too close to risk breaking a finger. I've seen versions of Sanchin where those knifehands were actually blocking ridgehands followed by grabs. It's almost Seiuchin again on a different angle. We're not disagreeing on this point. I'm just still working on it in my mind, since it seems to me that the shortest kata: Naihachi and Sanchin deserve special attention, and I want each movement to carry more weight because the kata are so short. In my current understanding, there are no spearhands in Naihachi. I rationalize the two spearhand-looking movements as grappling moves.

For throat, groin, and Adam's apple attacks, I might still want to use a ridgehand (a five to 30 degree difference), both to save my fingers and allow a quick grab.

What I mean by a three-finger attack is a clawing motion with the three strongest fingers. I feel it is better for two reasons: the finger is not rigid and will not be broken if it hits bone--and can scrape until it hits its moving target, and there is the buckshot effect, since three fingers are more likely to hit the moving target than one. Of course, once one finger hits, the wrist turns over and the other fingers support the finger that has found a soft target. At that point, it might look a lot like a spearhand.

You've given me a lot to think about and something to work on in class tomorrow. Thany you.

Generally , Knife hand is rarely to be used in Kumite ,or the street fight
but the reverse version ( haito ) is widely used in many competitions . Its KO power is no less than a closed fist, but requires much more speed and timing skill
but tsuki ( closed fist ) still the best , dont try to compare our punch to boxing punch , because what? ( our punch uses hip rotation , relax ,stances,and chambering )
karateka without closed fist is not a karateka

The technique is only as effective as the practioner of the technique makes it. Enough said

I agree with you. But I was polling to see who thinks its still effective and if they don't then why is taught in so many known to be effective fighting systems?

I never thought the subject would come up what is a Shuto- uchi or Knife hand?? But what should I expect from a people that practice an art that seeks perfection.

I see know problem with using Shuto in any form, but I'm not that much of a perfectionist, if I hit/miss with the shuto and my forearm hits the neck, the guy goes down or is shunned pretty bad, I flow into a finish. But in my mind it is what my mind precieved it to be, it started as a Shuto thats my stroy and I'm sticking to it.

Have shuto worked for you in training or in the real world? In use is it natural?

every strike itself has it own use , if you picked shuto , its' fine ,but remember , not every situation it will work

here's a vid that demonstrates seiken effectively -by the SDF of Japan : http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Beft4Z80uU

Neko

Interesting point---got me thinking.

In the Gekisi kata there is a VERY "overt" knife hand strike.

Only its not a knife hand strike at all.

Its "really" an elbow strike at very close range--it only "looks" like a knife hand because when you do it in kata you relax you arm a bit---in effect you make an elbow strike--but then you allow the mommentum to kind of "shoot" the hand out into what appears to be a knife hand.

See someone do the kata--you think its a knifehand.

See someone working the the same technique in the dojo--hitting a heavy bag with it, or with a partner--you see its a very different thing.

Sorry to go a bit off topic---just got me thinking.

In our two man bunikas it done as a sweep avoidance or stomp shuto/knife hand strike.

But I could see elbow, haito or even choke with that motion. This is Gakisai series Fukyu katas.