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#311232 - 12/30/06 08:55 PM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Agreed the USA govenment did not demonstrate this support, but what was done to stop the people doing it? Or was this another case of american double standards?




To quote JohnL, you are clearly an idiot. You do not understand the American political system at all. Political action groups are perfectly legal in America, even for the most off center idealogies. Look at NAMBLA for God's sake - or better yet, don't.

It is not a double standard, although I agree that it is reprehensible. But such is freedom here in the USA.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#311233 - 12/30/06 10:45 PM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Cord]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
not a response to you Cord or anyone in particular ...but I fail to see how "supporting the troops" is by keeping them in war, or justifying their reasons for being ordered to war. so if people are supporting the troops being there, what are they supporting? them dying?

if they shouldn't have been ordered there in the first place, then the right thing to do is bring them home. Then appologize to the world and admit the mistake. then ask for global support to help give Iraq the tools and money she needs to rebuild and let them rebuild and secure themselves.

Saddam being removed and executed pales in significance to the reprecussions of the Iraq mistake. I'm not saying it would have been better to leave hussein in power...I'm saying the reason, means and stubborness is probably dumber than how the US handled Vietnam.

At the time (2003), sanctions and containment was working fine to keep Hussein bottled up. I think a more intelligent use of the military would have been staying after Bin Laden and terrorists.

My prediction is that Bush Jr. will be put down in the history books as the worst president...ever.

it happened just as Powell predicted prior: "Pottery barn rules if you attack Iraq Mr. President - you break it, you own it."

It pains me to see men and women in uniform squandered. I care very much and have deep personal respect for American and British military...past and present. They are my blood. my Mother's side, we have relative who fought and died in every US war since WWI. My father's UK side, same thing. It's not as simple as blindly 'supporting the troops'. We have to support what it is they've been ordered to do. and I personally do not in this bogus war.



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#311234 - 12/30/06 11:46 PM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Ed_Morris]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I'm a bit out of touch when it comes to world affairs. Has anyone proved the connection between Hussein and WMDs yet? Did they find all of the WMDs that were supposed to be shot off at the western world yet? Also, was there any proven connection between Hussein and Al Quaida? (SP?) Those were the two reasons why the Iraq war was started right?

Bush built up a big national debt trying to answer those questions so I hope that's all old news.

I guess I should keep up with the news more.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (12/30/06 11:49 PM)
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#311235 - 12/31/06 12:55 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Ed_Morris]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
<<It's not as simple as blindly 'supporting the troops'. We have to support what it is they've been ordered to do. and I personally do not in this bogus war.>>

Pretty much what I think. Being anti blair/bush/war doesn't mean anti troops, they're just political tools blindly (having too) following stupid orders from dumbnuttedchucklef**ks
_________________________
"Irony is mainly used by the British in in order to distinguish themselves from Americans, which worked very well until the Americans had more guns than them."

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#311236 - 12/31/06 01:01 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Ed_Morris]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Ed, i agree to an extent, but my main gripe was that Mark was using unfounded portrayal of said troops as purposely murdering civilians and commiting war crimes in their daily duties to bolster his negative opinion of the war. that is uncalled for.

The removal of troops is unlikely now, as with Kosovo before, a 'peace keeping' force will have to be kept there for many years until 30 years of dictatorship can be replaced with a proper alternative infrastructure.

Look at Russia and east Germany- the change came on too quickly, poverty and extremism ensued. Not what Iraq needs.

The only way that soldiers die for 'nothing' is if we do not show them support and gratitude for their sacrifices. We would have no rememberance day if no one was thankfull for the efforts made in WW1+2, and the treatment that the US troops got post Vietnam is well documented and shamefull.

They are there, like it or not. Away from home and under fire trying to help establish a free country in the aftermath of a dictatorship. I think thats a noble cause, and that they should be thought of highly, no matter what is thought of politicians who send them there.
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#311237 - 12/31/06 02:39 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Cord]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I agree. even in the case of proven 'soldiers acting badly' (we have pictures that some do...remember the prisoner abuse photos?) ...even then, sure each offender gets punished on an individual basis and it's unfair to generalize and say all of the military personnel would follow orders and humiliate prisioners or drop bombs on populous Mosks, killing a 100 people to get at one - I'm sure most wouldn't.

but you know what? it's happened and it's happening. 'ugly' doesn't know good or bad...ugly is just ugly.

let me ask you guys, knowing what we know now (for those interested in retrospective history as a learning tool) about Vietnam...can you honestly say it was a 'good' thing? that it was a 'nobel cause' ? can you really? now that we know the decisions of the powers that be which went into sending troops there?

are we willing to change our perceptions of the truth based upon our support of the troops? seems a condecending, cop-out attitude to me - no honor in that. The military doesn't want heat from the people for politicians f'ing-up. nor should they take the heat for it. I'm putting ALL of this on the people who wrongly put them there....NOT the military doing their jobs the best they can.

I listed Hussein's crimes that he's been put to death for.... NO charges on that list match the reasons we invaded Iraq.

but people who were for the war in the beginning, are now saying...'well, whats done is done...we have to support the troops'.

which changes the argument and fails to address the problem. It's a cop-out position and proven failed mentality. Ask Japanese citizens during the 30's who 'supported their troops' during their 'exploritory expansion campaign' in Manchuria.

we can't blindly 'support the troops' ...if we do...who's gonna be looking out for THEM?

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#311238 - 12/31/06 02:46 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Ed_Morris]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Yawn!

i DID start to gather some evidence to support my views, but cant be bothered really, you can find anything i can just as easy

All i said in the first place was "I wonder if George Bush will be tried and executed for his war crimes and genocide?

Suppose not, history is written by the victors "

wow!! have some people over reacted.

I did go one to make these points:-
1.I asked if george bush will be tried for his crimes ( i corrected the term genocide)
2. I Have not crtisied the british military, just stated they should not be in Iraq doing the bidding of george Bush.
3.As i indicated im not a fan of Micheal Moore
4, SOME americans sponsered Terrorism in the Uk
5. AMerican political/finacial meddleing caused, ww2, coldwar,Korean war, Vietnam war, and the islamic terroist issue.
6. Saddam should have been hanged.
7. if you are a Moderator you can swear and insult other members of this forum without sanction

All of which are very valid and easily proven. yet few seem to be focusing on them, just making random points..

AS is the numerous tv footage of dead Iraqi Civilians including children

Cord, you state that its ok for you to offend me with abuse and swearing, but then say it ISNT ok for me to have an opinion on the US military..... oh well i suppose as a moderator ,you have special forum rights.

Matt, err YES or No question, (make it easyer for you)

1.DID SOME AMERICAN PEOPLE SPONSER AND SUPPORT TERRORISM IN THE UK? YES or NO?
2. DID THE US GOVERNMENT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN FOR 30 YRS?
YES or NO?


Im bored with this now.........

Mark

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#311239 - 12/31/06 02:58 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
glad you are bored, you wacko conspiracy band-wagoner.

Try something new: think for yourself.

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#311240 - 12/31/06 03:07 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Ed_Morris]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#311241 - 12/31/06 04:46 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Typical response, you made the claims now back them up. You’re generalizing people based on the actions of a few. Did some Americans support the actions in the UK? Sure they did, but unfortunately i'm sure there were even people in other countries including the UK who supported it as well. The simple fact of the matter is you have an issue with the U.S. for what ever reason and your willing to believe any little bit of ignorance you hear that supports your distaste. You come into a discussion about the execution of Saddam and start spouting off about how bad the U.S., it's military and it's president is then wonder why people are making fun of you? There is a good reason for it and i'm sure you will find it on the short bus.

Quote:

i DID start to gather some evidence to support my views, but cant be bothered really, you can find anything i can just as easy





This is nothing more than a copout. If you are going to spread your ignorance at least have the stamina to follow through and not tuck your tail the moment you are called on your BS. You are nothing more than a troll.

Ed,
I understand what you are saying about supporting the troops but the fact is we are there and aren't leaving any time soon. No the charges Saddam was convicted of are what Bush said we were going in for but we aren't the ones running his trial. They were a contributing factor though as was the WMD and believed link to Al Qaeda. There were and still are terrorist factions based out of Iraq and Saddam did have more weapons than were found, most of which are in Iran now. Saddam wasn't adhering to the UN sanctions. They were smuggling oil, refusing access to UN inspectors and sending aircraft into the no fly zone as well as moving anti-aircraft missiles into range of our patrol plains. Did we have to go in when we did? No. Do i think Bush handled the issue properly? Not even close. Can we pull out of Iraq now? Not possible. If we were to pull out now things for Iraq would only get worse. I don't agree with the way the army handled their detainee ops properly? Not even close and not trying to justify their actions at all but do you think our American and UK captives were treated any better? I would say not, most have been beheaded. I can tell you now that the Middle Eastern detainees in Cuba are treated MUCH better than our own soldiers. They eat better and are provided many more comforts than anyone would think a detainee should.

So yes it would be so much better if we could just bring all the troops home but it's not going to happen. Its one thing to show support for the troops by telling them all you want is for them to come home. It's another thing to tell them the reasons they are fighting and dieing are wrong. They know first hand what is going on there; they don't need to hear others telling them they shouldn't be there.
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Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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