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#311242 - 12/31/06 09:20 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Quote:

USA would not back french/ belgian action against german rearmamment, this allowed germany to rebuild its military.




Mark, I seem to recall Britain didn't do much either... oh, except pressure the French to play policy of Appeasement. I seem to remember that Britain wanted a strong Germany to ward of the nasty communists and actually encouraged rearmament. Then there was the Sudaten lands...

Then, of course, there was also that piece of paper which Chamberlain was waving around.

Thing is, then, as now, it all comes home to roost. We never seem to learn.

Noticed how Gaddaffi is becoming sweet and cuddly again?
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#311243 - 12/31/06 09:38 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Leo_E_49]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Apparently, Leo, (acording to an article I read in Newsweek, or Time,... so it MUST be true) Saddam was waging a huge bluff about his WMD as a way of trying to blackmail or threaten the West. problem was he was too convincing.

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POINT: Saddam hanged... might it not have been more interesting to put him in an Iraqi jail and have that little US Private drag him around by a dog chain before letting some of the other prisoners 'socialize' with him?


Edited by trevek (12/31/06 09:43 AM)
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#311244 - 12/31/06 09:58 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: trevek]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
I have no problems with the troops - unless willfully committing war crimes, I do not consider them 'moral' agents, in that they lack free will.

However, I do have some problems with the Iraq War:

1) Blair obviously lied to/misled the British people over WMDs.

2) It weakens our hand against Iran, *who really are building nuclear weapons*. Frankly, a country dedicated to the destruction of Isreal (the most liberal, democratic country in the Middle East, with the fairest judiciary to boot) getting a nuke scares the willies out of me.

3) Iraq is a quagmire. It's going to cost a lot of lives, just like Vietnam, because insurgencies work at a low level; there is no 'decisive victory', simply a gradual wearing-down of US public opinion until it becomes suicide for a president to not pull troops out. It's the old Vietnam problem again: US policy works in 4-year cycles - they need to see results; insurgents think in hundred-year cycles - they are totally committed and they are very, very patient.

4) The Iraq War allowed a bunch of know-nothing, anti-intellectual 'lefties' (inverted commas because they only call themselves this; they haven't thought about it enough to know) to witter on about how much they hate the US. It's just trendy clap-trap and has about as much reasoning to it as self-proclaimed 'Feminists' supporting the PLO
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#311245 - 12/31/06 10:07 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: TimBlack]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Agreed Tim,

what interests me is that in so called democaracies as UK and US a huge public outcry against such actions as the invasion of Iraq is just ignored. Is it then any wonder that 'real' dictatorships can last so long and do so much?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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#311246 - 12/31/06 10:45 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Yawn!

i DID start to gather some evidence to support my views, but cant be bothered really,




Then don't expect anyone to pay heed to your claptrap.

Quote:

Cord, you state that its ok for you to offend me with abuse and swearing, but then say it ISNT ok for me to have an opinion on the US military..... oh well i suppose as a moderator ,you have special forum rights.




He has the same rights that YOU do. You have been no model of forum civility by any means.

Quote:

Matt, err YES or No question, (make it easyer for you)

1.DID SOME AMERICAN PEOPLE SPONSER AND SUPPORT TERRORISM IN THE UK? YES or NO?
2. DID THE US GOVERNMENT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN FOR 30 YRS?
YES or NO?




Let me fix that for you:

Quote:

Matt, err YES or No question, (make it easyer for you)

1.IS THIS A STUPID QUESTION THAT YOU HAVE ANSWERED ALREADY? YES or NO?




YES.

Quote:

2. AM I CAPABLE OF ACTING BETTER AND COMPLAINING LESS ?




YES
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#311247 - 12/31/06 12:45 PM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I think I'm beginning to see why politics is generally banned from the forums.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#311248 - 12/31/06 01:10 PM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: laf7773]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Ed,
I understand what you are saying about supporting the troops but the fact is we are there and aren't leaving any time soon.



same reasoning for not bringing Vietnam troops back earlier.


Quote:

No the charges Saddam was convicted of are what Bush said we were going in for



false statement. congress and the people were lied to.

Quote:

but we aren't the ones running his trial. They were a contributing factor though as was the WMD and believed link to Al Qaeda.



and which WMD and links to AQ would those be? basing a war on a 'hunch' they had them without supporting evidence, so they present the world with fabricated 'evidence'? actually, in the case of the AQ link, they had evidence which pointed in the opposite direction.
in case you need to be refreshed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationale_for_the_Iraq_War
how anyone can ignore the signs of what was going on are beyond me.


Quote:

There were and still are terrorist factions based out of Iraq



there are now, since they have targets. prior to that guess what was going on in Iraq as far as terrorism...Bin Laden was supplying the Kurd resistance against Saddam. You know, the Kurdish people Saddam was trying to genocide. The Kurdish people Bush didn't even know about prior to attacking Iraq. Id say thats a key tactical oversight for a commander-cheif, yes?

source: 9/11 Commission, p. 61.
Quote:

The 9/11 Commission stated in its report that bin Laden had been sponsoring anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan, and sought to attract them into his Islamic army. Those forces mostly operated in areas not under Saddam's control. Sudanese Islamic leader Hassan al-Turabi, to protect his ties with Iraq, brokered an agreement with Bin Laden to stop supporting activities against Saddam. Bin Laden seemed to honor this agreement for a time, although, he continued to aid Islamic extremists in Kurdistan.






Quote:

and Saddam did have more weapons than were found, most of which are in Iran now.



which weapons? the conventional, chemical and bio weapons/technology the US, Russians and others sold them during the Iran-Iraq war in the 80's?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Iraq

Quote:

Saddam wasn't adhering to the UN sanctions.


he toyed with the UN for decades, why get tough on him suddenly in 2003?

Quote:

They were smuggling oil,



you're getting warmer ...

Quote:

refusing access to UN inspectors and sending aircraft into the no fly zone as well as moving anti-aircraft missiles into range of our patrol plains. Did we have to go in when we did? No. Do i think Bush handled the issue properly? Not even close.



correct, those games with him went on for over a decade.

Quote:

Can we pull out of Iraq now? Not possible. If we were to pull out now things for Iraq would only get worse.



here are some lessons, try and guess where these lessons were drawn from:
Quote:


1. We misjudged then — and we have since — the geopolitical intentions of our adversaries … and we exaggerated the dangers to the United States of their actions.
2. We viewed the people and leaders of [the foreign country] in terms of our own experience … We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.
3. We underestimated the power of nationalism to motivate a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values.
4. Our judgments of friend and foe alike reflected our profound ignorance of the history, culture, and politics of the people in the area, and the personalities and habits of their leaders.
5. We failed then — and have since — to recognize the limitations of modern, high-technology military equipment, forces and doctrine…
6. We failed as well to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of people from a totally different culture.
7. We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement … before we initiated the action.
8. After the action got under way and unanticipated events forced us off our planned course … we did not fully explain what was happening and why we were doing what we did.
9. We did not recognize that neither our people nor our leaders are omniscient. Our judgment of what is in another people's or country's best interest should be put to the test of open discussion in international forums. We do not have the God-given right to shape every nation in our image or as we choose.
10. We did not hold to the principle that U.S. military action … should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces supported fully (and not merely cosmetically) by the international community.
11. We failed to recognize that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems for which there are no immediate solutions … At times, we may have to live with an imperfect, untidy world.

Underlying many of these errors lay our failure to organize the top echelons of the executive branch to deal effectively with the extraordinarily complex range of political and military issues.




hmmmm....sounds like it could either be lessons from Vietnam, Korea or Iraq.

Quote:

I don't agree with the way the army handled their detainee ops properly? Not even close and not trying to justify their actions at all but do you think our American and UK captives were treated any better? I would say not, most have been beheaded. I can tell you now that the Middle Eastern detainees in Cuba are treated MUCH better than our own soldiers. They eat better and are provided many more comforts than anyone would think a detainee should.




two words: Geneva Convention. remember that? we can't tear it up, and redefine 'torture', etc just because the other side fights a guerrilla war.


Quote:

So yes it would be so much better if we could just bring all the troops home but it's not going to happen.



and why is that?


Quote:

Its one thing to show support for the troops by telling them all you want is for them to come home. It's another thing to tell them the reasons they are fighting and dieing are wrong. They know first hand what is going on there; they don't need to hear others telling them they shouldn't be there.




thats correct, they probably already do know that they shouldn't be there. but I agree, having them dwelling on it wouldn't help anything. it's the people's responsibility to protest an unjust war. ...it's our governments responsibility to be just. - they work for Us, we didn't sign up to have an oligarchy represent us. at least, I didn't.

Despite how anyone tries to link in Saddam's execution to the 'war on terror' the argument always comes up short due to the fact his summarized crime for being put to death was his policy of genocide against the kurdish people using technology and weapons "we" provided him during the 80's Iran-Iraq war.

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#311249 - 01/01/07 08:43 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
stormbringer Offline
Extraordinaire

Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 277
Loc: Florida
I'm guessing you've never read Mein Kampf.
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Brown Belt. Should have my Black by Summer 2008. Jhoon Rhee system

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#311250 - 01/01/07 04:04 PM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: trevek]
Crash Offline
Buckle up!

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 627
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

I think I'm beginning to see why politics is generally banned from the forums.




I here that! I'm not touchin' this one with a 40 foot pole!
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