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#311212 - 12/30/06 05:18 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Stormdragon]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
ROFL Cord how very shallow an understanding you have! quite amusing in fact.

The usa supported saddam in 1980s, reagan sent rumsfeld to meet him...

As for the super gun, British companies supplied parts of it.
As they did nerve gas agents

kuwait was part of iraq, mismanaged by britain in the 20th century.

Bin laden was sponsered by the USA in the afgan war against soviet russia

Not sure of the relavence of your friendly fire comments.

As for iraq supporting terrorist acts:- terrorists are what the big army calls the little army. were the french, dutch, belgian etc "partisans" terrorists or freedom fighters, in WW2?

Your reference to WW2 doenst mention that it was American interfirance in Europe that caused the war.

But i do agree with you about Micheal Moore.

causing the death of innocents is wrong, Bin laden, Bush, Hussain etc are wrong, but so are the military that do thier bidding.

mark

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#311213 - 12/30/06 05:22 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
So we shouldn't have stopped Hitler? And where did oyu get the idea that we caused that war? Again please enlighten me oh wise one. How about the first world war?
I never said Bush was a saint anyway. I dont care much for him as a leader personally.
You still haven't given me your experience and reasons why you have a right to post on this topic.


Edited by Stormdragon (12/30/06 05:23 AM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#311214 - 12/30/06 06:00 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:

causing the death of innocents is wrong, Bin laden, Bush, Hussain etc are wrong, but so are the military that do thier bidding.


I dont see how bush fits in to that. Genocide/terrorism dont really stack up to freeing people from tyranny. Iraq is the big baby of countries, it needs a parent. Which is what bush is working on. You can throw the whole "bush did 911" thing out but hes still working towards a very decent goal. No more deaths have been caused than have been prevented by us occupation.
_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#311215 - 12/30/06 06:13 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

ROFL Cord how very shallow an understanding you have! quite amusing in fact.




i can live with your amusement.

Quote:

The usa supported saddam in 1980s, reagan sent rumsfeld to meet him...

As for the super gun, British companies supplied parts of it.
As they did nerve gas agents




and Hitler was invited to Britain in the 30's. I think Goerring actualy did visit. Whats you point? As the political map changes, so do alliances and relationships. This happens in personal life as well. Never fallen out with someone, or been betrayed by a lover?

Quote:

Bin laden was sponsered by the USA in the afgan war against soviet russia




No secret there. Anyone who even only saw Rambo 3 knows of US support of the Afghans. Again, what is your point? Communism was seen as a huge idealogical threat to the democratic principles of the West, allegiances and support were offered in relation to this.

Quote:

As for iraq supporting terrorist acts:- terrorists are what the big army calls the little army. were the french, dutch, belgian etc "partisans" terrorists or freedom fighters, in WW2?




The difference here is that the act of terrorism lead to the war. 9/11 was not an act of protest or retaliation for US occupancy. It was an open act of aggression against a non military target. This then lead to the war in Afghanistan. Thats not fighting oppression, thats picking a fight.

Quote:

Your reference to WW2 doenst mention that it was American interfirance in Europe that caused the war.




Tosh. Hitler's plan to grab land and expand Germany lead to his invasion of Poland. Thats what started WW2.

Quote:

causing the death of innocents is wrong, Bin laden, Bush, Hussain etc are wrong, but so are the military that do thier bidding.




F*cking ingrate, the military out there are putting their lives on the line for me and you and everyone who does not deserve to die burning in a skyscraper because some lunatic decides they dont like the way they live. I have friends out there, i have family who have served and seen action. They are not wrong. They are heroes who take no pleasure in taking life, but have answered a call to protect their country. The soldiers of the Iraqi army under the control of Saddam were exactly the same, and afforded that respect under the Geneva convention. Where such respect was not given, our own military guilty of transgression have been punished severely.

You have gone on record elsewhere saying that you relish inflammatory argument, and quite often do not agree with what you post, seeking to act as devils advocate. May I suggest that if that is the case here, it is far too emotive a topic for such games.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#311216 - 12/30/06 06:14 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Mark,
If you have such strong feelings about what is going on in the middle east then why don't you pack your bags and head on over there and fix things from the inside out? The simple truth of the matter is you don't know what is REALLY going on over there and why. All you know is your armchair quarterback version of the war.

Quote:

Asked if they had ever killed an Iraqi noncombatant, 28 percent of the 794 Marines surveyed said yes. Two-thirds reported killing an enemy combatant. Fourteen percent of 861 soldiers from the Army's 3rd Infantry Division reported they had killed at least one Iraqi noncombant



Where did you get your statistics from? Feel free to state your sources. What are you considering "noncombatants"? Are you counting the 12yo kids that are strapped with explosives and sent running toward our troops as a part of those "noncombatants"? Are you counting the families that the insurgents hide behind while shooting at our soldiers "noncombatants"? How do you think these situations should be handled? Should we just lay down our guns and say "oh, wait! We can't shoot them, there are innocent people with them"? But again, feel free to state your sources.

Quote:

err, what do you actually know about my expereience?
also, I am in a position to judge, just as you seemed to in a position to judge me. Its called free speech, I know the US military are trying to stamp it out all around the world, but europe is still hanging on to it, just...




What experiences have you had? Where have you served? For how long? What makes you think you have any clue as to what is going on? Other than sitting and listening to other idiots who know nothing about what is going on over there hypothesize about what they think is going on.

Quote:

but here a few words:- Enron, Halliburton Co, ChevronTexaco, Foster Wheeler Energy Limited




Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?

Quote:

The usa supported saddam in 1980s, reagan sent rumsfeld to meet him




Again your ignorance is showing. You know we were at war with Japan at one point and now they are one of our biggest allies, things change.

Quote:

Bin laden was sponsered by the USA in the afgan war against soviet russia




Hey genius, not only did we sponsor him but we provided much of his training. It's funny how bitter people get when they get laid off isn't it. Is it right? No but it's the nature of things. It happens every where, in business, politics, in every country. People are used for their purpose and taken care of until their usefulness is gone then they are let go.

You apparently don't understand the depth of what is going on or you're not able to see things objectively from both sides. Maybe instead of jumping on the band wagon and speaking out against the big bad U.S. and our military full of baby killers you actually get a few FACTS. Better yet how about you get off your duff, pull your head out of your pucker and take a little trip to the Middle East.

Quote:

well maybe the term genocide was a bit strong, he hasnt manage to totally eliminate the people of the middle east.





You do realize the "middle east" comprises of much more than just Iraq and Kuwait, right?

It's not hard to get the word directly from the horse’s mouth. Just shoot an e-mail to any of the armed forces members who have served there.

As for trying to stamp out free speech? The reason you can ramble on about your ignorance of what the truth really is would be because of the armed forces. They are there to fight for those who either can't or choose not to fight for themselves. So yes you are entitled to your opinion and your ability to express it in a public forum. I know because i've given you that right.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#311217 - 12/30/06 07:13 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: laf7773]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
"Anyone who even only saw Rambo 3 knows of US support of the Afghans" fantastic comment!! was rambo3 a documentary then?

USA would not back french/ belgian action against german rearmamment, this allowed germany to rebuild its military.

USA banks invested hugly in germany, but when the US econemy collapsed in 1930`s they demanded instant repayment causing the german economy to collapse, this paved the way or the national socilaist party to get elected as german govenment... thats basic, i could site more, but that will do.

As for the military putting themselves on the line for me: I DONT WANT THEM IN IRAQ, so the are not doing it for me.

laf7773

thank you for agreeing to so many of my points, sorry it has struck such a nerve.

Still, the American PEOPLE sponsered terrorisom in England for over 30 yrs and Britain is still the USAs strongest ally.

If our Military had behaved in Ireland as yours have in Iraq, i would think that the Worlds policeman would have given us a stern telling off.

"military full of baby killers" i missed that storey, I have seen some footage of dead babys after american bombings, is it a common occurance then?

"9/11 was not an act of protest or retaliation for US occupancy." Err that is exactly what Bin Laden said it was. ( and NO i dont condone that act, as i said Killing any innocent person is wrong)

I actually agree with Saddams sentance, all i asked was if Bush would be held responsible for his actions?

"So yes you are entitled to your opinion and your ability to express it in a public forum" many thanks for that, but i guess only when you agree with my opinion?

BTW "All you know is your armchair quarterback version of the war". .... great insult, i like it!

Next?

Mark


PS: Cord, it really isnt very nice to swear at someone and call them an ingrate

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#311218 - 12/30/06 07:32 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
MarkW Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 39
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Sigh. Isn't war great?

I don't think they should have used the death penalty, especially not hanging. No-one should decide who lives or dies, not even the justice system. A life long prison sentence would have punished him more.

MarkW
_________________________
'Chuck Norris doesn't breathe, he holds air hostage.' - Confucious.

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#311219 - 12/30/06 07:59 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: mark]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

"Anyone who even only saw Rambo 3 knows of US support of the Afghans" fantastic comment!! was rambo3 a documentary then?




Of course not, and that was my point. The well documented support of the Afgan nation by the US is neither suprising, nor valid in relation to the current situation. In fact, one could argue that if anyone should not be aggressive towards america, it would be a nation assisted by them in its fight against occupation. A bitter irony indeed.

USA would not back french/ belgian action against german rearmamment, this allowed germany to rebuild its military.

Quote:

USA banks invested hugly in germany, but when the US econemy collapsed in 1930`s they demanded instant repayment causing the german economy to collapse, this paved the way or the national socilaist party to get elected as german govenment... thats basic, i could site more, but that will do.




So America finds itself badly hit by what was a huge global depression, its crops the midwest turns into a massive dust bowl, and this was all engineered on purpose to aid Hitler into power!?
interesting that in the grip of the very same recession, America did not abandon democracy in favour of a despot bent on world domination and race based genocide.
Hitler was a shrewd and ruthless politician who worked his way into domestic power from inside the very system he then destroyed. The economic collapse was global, not merely an interplay between Germany and the US.

Quote:

As for the military putting themselves on the line for me: I DONT WANT THEM IN IRAQ, so the are not doing it for me.




Tough. They are acting at the behest of a duly elected political party representative of the majority of the population of our country. Do you think Ken Bigley would have been spared if he had said to his captors 'look, I dont agree with what our country is doing' ? If only it were that simple.

Quote:

Still, the American PEOPLE sponsered terrorisom in England for over 30 yrs and Britain is still the USAs strongest ally.




I have thought about this aspect of the argument myself, and I must admit Irish-American support for the IRA is not the US's finest moment, but as a nation, they have been, up to 9/11, geographicaly impervious to terrorist attack, and it is obvious that 9/11 has changed that, and a nations perceptions of the reality of living under the threat of terrorism. They have grown and changed, and I respect that.

Quote:

If our Military had behaved in Ireland as yours have in Iraq, i would think that the Worlds policeman would have given us a stern telling off.




Maybe not. Like you said yourself, it was elements of the american public who helped fund the IRA, the US govt. have never condoned them, and always offered official support for the UK govt. Besides, allied troops in Iraq have not behaved illegaly, or badly. They are fighting a war, by definition this will be violent, its not thumb wrestling.

Quote:

"9/11 was not an act of protest or retaliation for US occupancy." Err that is exactly what Bin Laden said it was. ( and NO i dont condone that act, as i said Killing any innocent person is wrong)




he can 'say' what he wants, the simple fact is that he had nothing to retaliate against at the time other than being offended by the West's way of life.

Quote:

I actually agree with Saddams sentance, all i asked was if Bush would be held responsible for his actions?




so as I suspected, you are acting as agent provocateur in this thread- how respectful and nice of you to make an argument for your own entertainment out of others pain and death.

Quote:

PS: Cord, it really isnt very nice to swear at someone and call them an ingrate




I have never said or referred to myself as 'nice', nor do I seek in life to be seen as such.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#311220 - 12/30/06 08:43 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Cord]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Wow, this one is spinning out of control. For the record:

Iraq did not train large numbers of terrorists; indeed, Al Quaeda were antagonistic towards Saddam Hussein.

Saddam Hussein was a bad man; Bush isn't in the same league, and nor is Tony Blair. Hussein committed genocide and, yes, Britain did sell him nerve gas agents used. So we are implicit in the crime, but not morally responsible - I guess I would compare it with selling a M16 to a pyscho. Oh, and Blair didn't sell the gas so don't lump him with the mistakes of his predecessors.

Iraq is simply not an economic war; it's decking out the US economy by raising oil prices and costing billions of dollars. Some hawks may have an 'agenda' in the middle-east, but I'm tired of hearing this conspiracy theory Zionist BS.

MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) always carry high casualties and high civilian casualties. Let's have no illusions, place an army in a city and innocents start getting killed.

The British and US public were either misled / lied to OR Blair and Bush were simply wrong about weapons of mass destruction. The fact is Saddam didn't have them, and probably wasn't creating them. Therefore both leaders are either incompetent or corrupt - but they both won their last elections. Make of that what you like.

The insurgency is not going to stop; it's just like Afghanistan in that the situation creates a scapegoat across the middle-east which allows despotic Arab regimes to basically send all their terrorists/political dissidents to Iraq. That's bad. It's time we faced up to the fact that the problems of the Middle East aren't a result of Isreal or the US, they're because there are despotic, dangerous, repressive and (some) fanatical regimes which support terrorism, fear their own people, and rely upon scapegoats such as Isreal to pacify/channel political dissidents.

Isreal, the US, and the UK are not committing genocide. Genocide is the attempt to whipe out a people. Each nation has the power to do so in Palestine, Iraq, and within their own borders. They aren't, and the hysterical references to the holocaust and to WW2 are simply unhelpful.

Will that do?
_________________________
My Workout Log

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#311221 - 12/30/06 09:13 AM Re: Saddam Hussein executed [Re: Leo_E_49]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Stormdragon wrote:
Quote:

Is it worse punishment to be imprisoned for life i na c rappy prison (like a mexican prison or something)....






Or an Iraqi prison??? Like the one's HE used to imprison people in.



Leo_E_49 wrote:
Quote:



I somehow fail to see how burning the corpse could prevent him becoming a martyr.




Part of their "hocus pocus" superstition I'd guess.


Mark wrote:
Quote:


I wonder if George Bush will be tried and executed for his war crimes and genocide?

Suppose not, history is written by the victors




Point ON brother. Of course we know that nothing will happen to bush except go down as one of our worst presidents.


Tim Black wrote:

Quote:

Bush isn't in the same league





Opinions vary brother. Just a different KIND of evil.



-John

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