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#310827 - 12/31/06 12:01 PM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: mark]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by mark -

Quote:

none of us would get bored at work and drift off, or sit down,
Nor would we allow our selves to be suprised by a knife whelding attacker.
We all would manitain a warriors awareness at all times.




I must agree with Mark. Having worked security for a while when I was younger, I can say that it is easy to become complacent when most of the work is uneventful.
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#310828 - 01/01/07 05:47 PM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: aoishi]
Landus Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 373
Loc: UK
I agree with aoishi, straight away I thought the secruity guard shouldn't have been sitting down. When the first two people came in, he actually looked away briefly; he looked very vulnerable. I think if the man's adrenaline was running high enough, he wouldn't have noticed the chair/mop attacks as much; they weren't incredibly hard. The knifer looked as if he was just trying to sink the blade but didn't have the precision. Ferocious.

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#310829 - 01/01/07 06:12 PM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: mark]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Im sure that you have all been in this sort of sitiation several times and that gives you an accurate position to judge from.

none of us would get bored at work and drift off, or sit down,
Nor would we allow our selves to be suprised by a knife whelding attacker.
We all would manitain a warriors awareness at all times.

Most definatly when under attack, none of us would feel fear or even panic, go into shock, suffer pain and blood loss.

we WOULD all draw upon years of training and in true movie style defeat the attacker with ease.

AS Leo says, we would use our Judo, grappling skills to get the knife REALLY close to us so that we could gain complete control over the blade and attacker.


Mark

PS: i wonder, was the guard wearing a stab vest?




I really don't get your point. What are you trying to cause a ruckus? This is a good thread and a good discussion. It will open many peoples' eyes to the dangers of knife attacks. I don't want this thread closed because of some silly argument. If that happens, peoples' eyes will remain closed and ineffective, dangerous disarming techniques will continue to be taught. Perhaps with this information, someone may decide against such training and that may save someone's life. Who knows?

Taking statements out of context doesn't help anything. I'm getting tired of this happening.

What do you think we think we are? Invincible? Give me a break.

Yes it's possible to get off better than the guard did and no, it's not that difficult. Even just sitting away from the door, a simple habit which is easy to stick to, even when complacent, would have helped him sustain less injury. Protocols and common sense exist for our own safety.

I despair when I hear people give a blanket "there's nothing you can do to protect yourself" statement. If you believe that, why do you train?

What have you got against grappling anyway? If you've not trained in the Judo clinch (as would seem apparent by your comment), what point is there in your commenting on its effectiveness or lack thereof? It is evident that training in this situation is valuable because it occurred there on the video whether the attacker/guard wanted it or not. You should admit your lack of experience in certain stances to avoid misleading the readers of this forum when you comment on them.

Without grappling, almost any weapon disarm is ineffective because you have to hold onto your attacker to disarm them. I admit that I am no expert on disarms but I've seen enough to know that this is an almost universal principle.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/01/07 06:36 PM)
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#310830 - 01/01/07 07:39 PM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: Leo_E_49]
MarkW Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 39
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I agree with Mark...assuming he is being sarcastic?
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#310831 - 01/01/07 07:52 PM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: MarkW]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
That's clear enough, however, simply implying that nothing anyone has suggested could help in that situation doesn't help anything. Such statements are only bait for arguments and usually result in thread-locking.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (01/01/07 07:53 PM)
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#310832 - 01/02/07 04:21 PM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: Leo_E_49]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
There's another aspect to facing a blade that hasn't been mentioned, Shock.

As I understand it, when a blade penetrates as little as 3 centimeters, the body experiences shock from the event. Shock is the literal physical response to the insertion, and everyone reacts naturally for themselves.

Some people will immediatly go out. Others will react with vigor, and training has nothing to do with how one reacts to the shock of penetration, its a total involuntary response.

Which implies not getting cut makes far more sense than how you respond when you have been.
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#310833 - 01/02/07 05:23 PM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: Blackrainbow]
Ippon_Me_Mae Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 9
Loc: South Carolina, US
if you look closely, you can tell where he is ost hurt. he is sliced several times in the ar due to blocking, i think stabbed at least 2-3 times in the torso, ainly in the chest. Given medical help soon enough, he could live.
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#310834 - 01/02/07 08:48 PM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: Ippon_Me_Mae]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
I was indeed being sarcastic and typing with my special IRONY keyboard.

Leo, that poor guard was attacked in the REAL world, not the dojo, or the often fictional world of this forum.

I despair at the comments:- “Guard shouldn't have been so near the door AND sitting down. : Don't fear the knife. Fear the man with the knife.: the guard making some terrible decisions as to situational awareness


The surreal world of the cyber warrior.

Security are at the door often to vet the suitability of customers to enter, or to deter customers from passing them with stolen stock

The guard did very well not to DIE!! As for the hits from mop and chairs, they clearly were not substantial enough or with heavy enough implements. Silly attacker didn’t stand still like the do in training… Neither did he stop struggling as they do in training…

Leo I have NOTHING against grappling arts, I hold a 3rd dan in Jujitsu myself, its just the defence principle of “close on the knife and take him to the ground “ makes me shudder…. Best way to disarm, is to render an opponent unconscious, trading a cut arm for a KO strike is a very reasonable exchange in the real world. Now im not saying hit him only once, LOL right arm should be like a steam piston running at 10000rpm.

Not sure why you say “What do you think we think we are? Invincible? Give me a break.”
Perhaps my sarcasm was too thin, Sorry I confused you.

LEO don’t be so fragile, enjoy the debate, I know your still a boy, but chill out lad.

Sorry to burst the bubble guys, but if you get attacked with a blade, you will Sh*t yourselves, and many of you will freeze, MUST of us will get cut.

It is a great training video, I have certainly added it to my collection

Victor, I did indeed mention shock myself, your point is well made and very accurate, thank you. Perhaps we could run a thread discussing the effects of shock……

Regards

Mark

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#310835 - 01/03/07 10:55 AM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: mark]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

I despair at the comments:- “Guard shouldn't have been so near the door AND sitting down. : Don't fear the knife. Fear the man with the knife.: the guard making some terrible decisions as to situational awareness




Are you saying that it was smart to sit next to the door right in front of where an attacker would strike? He was just asking to be stabbed by doing so. Sitting away from the door would have definitely given him more time to react. Maybe even deploy his holstered firearm.

Quote:

Security are at the door often to vet the suitability of customers to enter, or to deter customers from passing them with stolen stock




Explain the firearm. The guard would not need a firearm if he were only there to nab a runner.

Quote:

The guard did very well not to DIE!! As for the hits from mop and chairs, they clearly were not substantial enough or with heavy enough implements. Silly attacker didn’t stand still like the do in training… Neither did he stop struggling as they do in training…




You train to stand still when hit? I only train to submission.

Quote:

Leo I have NOTHING against grappling arts, I hold a 3rd dan in Jujitsu myself, its just the defence principle of “close on the knife and take him to the ground “ makes me shudder….




You can not deny that the Judo clinch occurred. Hence, any experience in that stance would be beneficial. Saying that experience in a fighting situation which occurred is useless is just silly.

Quote:

Best way to disarm, is to render an opponent unconscious, trading a cut arm for a KO strike is a very reasonable exchange in the real world.




It can take several minutes to get a KO strike in a championship boxing match. Even the best fighters in the world can take that long to get a KO. Aiming for a KO will prolong the stabbing. In the few years I spent contact sparring, I was only KOed once and I was only knocked down on two occasions. Simply saying "just KO the guy" is no different from any suggestion which works in the Dojo. That's the thing I don't like about traditional JJ. Every traditional JJ mindset I've encountered endeavours to suggest that what works in the Dojo won't work in real life. If that's the case, what's the point of going to the Dojo to train? My goodness, have you been wasting all these years of your life in martial arts training for self defense? because I sure haven't.

Quote:

Now im not saying hit him only once, LOL right arm should be like a steam piston running at 10000rpm.




As I said, this happens plenty in championship matches and it still takes minutes for the opponent to go down. KOs are not as easy as you make them out to be.

Quote:

Not sure why you say “What do you think we think we are? Invincible? Give me a break.”
Perhaps my sarcasm was too thin, Sorry I confused you.

LEO don’t be so fragile, enjoy the debate, I know your still a boy, but chill out lad.




What does me being a boy have to do with anything? Sarcasm only goes so far. I want an explanation as to what the guard could have done to better defend himself. Clearly you are only interested in critiquing other peoples' suggestions and throwing in bland comments such as "just KO the guy". Why is a boy scolding you for giving an inadequate explanation of your opinions? Does maturity lead to this kind of thinking? If so I don't want to be mature.

Life ain't so simple as "just KO him". If you can just pull that off in seconds by using your "right arm ... like a steam piston running at 10000rpm", you should be a world champion in the ring.

Quote:

Sorry to burst the bubble guys, but if you get attacked with a blade, you will Sh*t yourselves, and many of you will freeze, MUST of us will get cut.




Bubble didn't exist in the first place. I'm scared to heck by blades and most importantly I want to KNOW how to deal with them. Not just "oh KO him" or "use this technique". No fighting situation is so simple that you can just say one technique will solve it. That's why we train.

In knife defense it's best to assume you're going to get cut. But where and how many times depends on your actions during the altercation.
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Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

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#310836 - 01/03/07 11:02 AM Re: Horrifying knife attack [Re: Leo_E_49]
mark Offline
sword of magnamity

Registered: 03/04/03
Posts: 1284
Loc: uk
Ok Leo, you know best.

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