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#310212 - 12/31/06 12:20 AM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: migo]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4115
Loc: California
That's a shame, I'll have a look around the place and see what I can come up with. I've not studied an art which focuses on dirty tactics however so I doubt my MA book collection will turn up anything of worth.
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#310213 - 12/31/06 12:25 AM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: migo]
JAD Offline
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Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Michigan, USA
In the second half of the 1980's the "eye gouge" was part of the Prisoner management training in the Mich. Dept. of Corrections. It is still taught as of last year.

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#310214 - 12/31/06 02:49 PM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: JAD]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Eye gouging and striking are a large part of the AKK syllabus.
Five Swords, Crossing Talon, Raining Claw all contain eye/face rakes or strikes. And that is just on Orange belt (7th kyu).

http://www.americankenpokarate.net/nav/techniques.html
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#310215 - 01/01/07 07:04 AM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: migo]
drgndrew Offline
< a god, > a man.
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 599
Loc: Toowoomba, Qld, Australia
from Get Tough circa 1943


Quote:

NO. 2 - CHIN JAB

Deliver this blow with the heel of your hand, full force, with the weight of your body behind it, and fingers spread so as to reach your opponent's eyes, as in Fig. 4. Always aim at the point of your opponent's chin (Fig. 5)







Quote Available to view here:
http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/fairbairn-01_02.shtml

Get tough Book can be viewed online at:
http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learning/ruk-b/fairbairn-01.shtml

Also In the "Bruce lee fighting method" series of books there is reference to the "lead hand eye jab" including instructions it is mentioned that it is the fasted strike due to it needing to travel only a small distance.
Sorry cant remember which one(s) exactly but it's there.
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#310216 - 01/02/07 04:03 PM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: migo]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
migo

I don't really get the question.

I mean I don't understand what the underlaying assumtions of the question might be.

The Bubushi shows one--at least some versions do, and its been floating around since the early/mid 1800's.

I was taught an eye strike in version of Chintei around 1985--don't know for sure where the teacher learned that particular strike--guessing that its part of his style.

A number of period chinese boxing books show such strikes---don't have them in front of me right now.

There are several such strikes in Seisan kata--very old kata,I can trace back the specifc version I do to sometime in the early 1950's--and the kata itself is several 100 years older than that.

And as far as I know, all the Goju, Uechi, Ruei-ryu version have such a strike--so it probably did back in the day as well.

I also got gouged in the eye during wrestling practice back in HS--it was an accident--but it cut me open pretty neatly.

Maybe if I had a better grasp of why your asking and what exactly your looking for I could be of more help.


Edited by cxt (01/02/07 04:07 PM)
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#310217 - 01/02/07 10:13 PM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: cxt]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

I mean I don't understand what the underlaying assumtions of the question might be.




Good, and for now I hope most people don't. That way we can just stick to getting documentation of them (any time they're discussed in paper before 1993) and avoid any of the standard eye gouge discussions.

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#310218 - 01/02/07 10:22 PM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: cxt]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
cxt,
I'm kind of with you on this one... I started MA in 1962 and was taught from about my second class to attack the eyes with both ippon nukite and a "full spread" of fingers. We spent endless hours of punching at cardboard cutouts hung by a string that had "eye-holes" in them.

It was "just another target", and we focused on being accurate with our strikes, and being "lightning quick" with the strike, in case we were facing multiple attackers. We did the same basic technique and skills training in both Isshin Ryu and Shotokan... and most of the other schools I visited during that time practiced much the same set of skills.

My question is "what is 'dirty fighting'?" Fighting is fighting, and unless you're fighting as a sport, anything goes. If you want to fight "with rules", you have to make a sport out of what you're doing, and "dumb down" the techniques for safety. If you're training to fight, you learn control (not an instruction) and learn to fight using it.

That point defines the difference between "modern" MA and "old style" MA... when you can go full force, full tilt, without pads, then you need "skills"... everybody else needs pads.

As for the "printed material", I have one of Mas Oyama's books circa 1964 that teaches "sanbon nukite" (3-finger upward strike to the eyes) and has multiple examples of its use in ippon kumite (one step sparring)... clearly, that's "pre-1993". The book was written by Bobby Lowe, and pretty typical of the books on karate in that era. I also have an old Bruce Tegner book around here somewhere that probably has the exact same material in it...

Eye-gouging wasn't the discovery of fire...



Edited by wristtwister (01/02/07 10:36 PM)
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#310219 - 01/03/07 12:20 AM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: migo]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
migo

Don't know if its "good" or not.

Not knowing what direction your wanting to take this hampers the research as much as it might help.

Just an opinion.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#310220 - 01/03/07 12:24 AM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: wristtwister]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
wrist

I recall a book Deadly Karate Blows-I think the first printing was prior to 93--I think.

I agree, as far as I know, eye strikes have pretty much always been a part of classical arts--karate, kung fu, silet, arnis, wresteling etc.

Could always be wrong--but my impression is much as yours.


Edited by cxt (01/03/07 12:25 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#310221 - 01/03/07 04:06 AM Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993? [Re: cxt]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Quote:

migo

Don't know if its "good" or not.

Not knowing what direction your wanting to take this hampers the research as much as it might help.

Just an opinion.




I don't want it narrowed down or taken in any particular direction. I'd just like to see where it's documented. I can draw conclusions from it then, and so can anyone else reading this thread if they chose to. Also, if nobody has an idea for a particular direction, it helps avoiding an argument and keeping this mostly documentation and information.

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