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#310212 - 12/31/06 12:20 AM
Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993?
[Re: migo]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4115
Loc: California
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That's a shame, I'll have a look around the place and see what I can come up with. I've not studied an art which focuses on dirty tactics however so I doubt my MA book collection will turn up anything of worth. 
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#310213 - 12/31/06 12:25 AM
Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993?
[Re: migo]
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Newbie
Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Michigan, USA
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In the second half of the 1980's the "eye gouge" was part of the Prisoner management training in the Mich. Dept. of Corrections. It is still taught as of last year.
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#310214 - 12/31/06 02:49 PM
Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993?
[Re: JAD]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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Eye gouging and striking are a large part of the AKK syllabus. Five Swords, Crossing Talon, Raining Claw all contain eye/face rakes or strikes. And that is just on Orange belt (7th kyu). http://www.americankenpokarate.net/nav/techniques.html
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#310216 - 01/02/07 04:03 PM
Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993?
[Re: migo]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
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migo
I don't really get the question.
I mean I don't understand what the underlaying assumtions of the question might be.
The Bubushi shows one--at least some versions do, and its been floating around since the early/mid 1800's.
I was taught an eye strike in version of Chintei around 1985--don't know for sure where the teacher learned that particular strike--guessing that its part of his style.
A number of period chinese boxing books show such strikes---don't have them in front of me right now.
There are several such strikes in Seisan kata--very old kata,I can trace back the specifc version I do to sometime in the early 1950's--and the kata itself is several 100 years older than that.
And as far as I know, all the Goju, Uechi, Ruei-ryu version have such a strike--so it probably did back in the day as well.
I also got gouged in the eye during wrestling practice back in HS--it was an accident--but it cut me open pretty neatly.
Maybe if I had a better grasp of why your asking and what exactly your looking for I could be of more help.
Edited by cxt (01/02/07 04:07 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.
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#310217 - 01/02/07 10:13 PM
Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993?
[Re: cxt]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
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Quote:
I mean I don't understand what the underlaying assumtions of the question might be.
Good, and for now I hope most people don't. That way we can just stick to getting documentation of them (any time they're discussed in paper before 1993) and avoid any of the standard eye gouge discussions.
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#310218 - 01/02/07 10:22 PM
Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993?
[Re: cxt]
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like a chiropractor, only evil
Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
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cxt, I'm kind of with you on this one... I started MA in 1962 and was taught from about my second class to attack the eyes with both ippon nukite and a "full spread" of fingers. We spent endless hours of punching at cardboard cutouts hung by a string that had "eye-holes" in them. It was "just another target", and we focused on being accurate with our strikes, and being "lightning quick" with the strike, in case we were facing multiple attackers. We did the same basic technique and skills training in both Isshin Ryu and Shotokan... and most of the other schools I visited during that time practiced much the same set of skills. My question is "what is 'dirty fighting'?" Fighting is fighting, and unless you're fighting as a sport, anything goes. If you want to fight "with rules", you have to make a sport out of what you're doing, and "dumb down" the techniques for safety. If you're training to fight, you learn control (not an instruction) and learn to fight using it. That point defines the difference between "modern" MA and "old style" MA... when you can go full force, full tilt, without pads, then you need "skills"... everybody else needs pads.  As for the "printed material", I have one of Mas Oyama's books circa 1964 that teaches "sanbon nukite" (3-finger upward strike to the eyes) and has multiple examples of its use in ippon kumite (one step sparring)... clearly, that's "pre-1993". The book was written by Bobby Lowe, and pretty typical of the books on karate in that era. I also have an old Bruce Tegner book around here somewhere that probably has the exact same material in it... Eye-gouging wasn't the discovery of fire... 
Edited by wristtwister (01/02/07 10:36 PM)
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#310219 - 01/03/07 12:20 AM
Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993?
[Re: migo]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
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migo
Don't know if its "good" or not.
Not knowing what direction your wanting to take this hampers the research as much as it might help.
Just an opinion.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.
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#310220 - 01/03/07 12:24 AM
Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993?
[Re: wristtwister]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5767
Loc: USA
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wrist
I recall a book Deadly Karate Blows-I think the first printing was prior to 93--I think.
I agree, as far as I know, eye strikes have pretty much always been a part of classical arts--karate, kung fu, silet, arnis, wresteling etc.
Could always be wrong--but my impression is much as yours.
Edited by cxt (01/03/07 12:25 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won.
Huey.
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#310221 - 01/03/07 04:06 AM
Re: Docmuentation of eye gouges in MA pre 1993?
[Re: cxt]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
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Quote:
migo
Don't know if its "good" or not.
Not knowing what direction your wanting to take this hampers the research as much as it might help.
Just an opinion.
I don't want it narrowed down or taken in any particular direction. I'd just like to see where it's documented. I can draw conclusions from it then, and so can anyone else reading this thread if they chose to. Also, if nobody has an idea for a particular direction, it helps avoiding an argument and keeping this mostly documentation and information.
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