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#309348 - 12/31/06 12:10 PM Re: Introducing myself [Re: trevek]
VDJ Offline

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674

I agree Tim. Poor old jaspa just comes on to say and introduce himself and immediately gets the rubber glove treatment about his club and master.

No wonder so few people fill in profiles.

I am not trying to "Rubber Glove" anybody ! I first stated that I did not want to insult Jasper only stated that I had questions and reservations about some of the claims that he had stated on here about his Master. Why is it O.K to question some but not others ?If you go the "Martial Arts" forum, there is a whole thing about Frank Dux and his claims. There are even those that debate the legtimacy of General Choi. So why is it not O.K. to question this gentleman ? Jasperdaman, it is your Masters responsability to know such things that are out there about him. To just shrug it off as he is to busy to know such things is, in my opinion, a way of saying that you may not want to know the truth. From the things that I have read, and the interviews that are on these sites with Mr. Rhee, give me concerns. He teaches half of the ITF patterns, developed by the General, but no where do I see that he mentions the General at all. The one site makes a statement that the art of Tae Kyon is now known as TKD. To many things give me doubts. Again, he may be gifted physically, from what I see is being taught by whats listed is in my opinion, bastardizing. The only thing I have asked from Jasper is a confirmation of this is what is really taught at these dojangs ? If these sites are slandering what he believes and teaches, then I would want to think he would want to spend some time researching them !


Edited by VDJ (12/31/06 12:13 PM)

#309349 - 12/31/06 12:42 PM Re: Introducing myself [Re: VDJ]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
True, I wasn't really having a go at your questions (you did, as you say, state you weren't trying to insult him) but it did seem that there was a lot of pressure flying for jasper to justify his master when he obviously doesn't have the background info to do that. He's obviously feeling a little put out by some of the comments.

Perhaps it would be better to contact Mr Rhee or his website directly.
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#309350 - 12/31/06 03:24 PM Re: Introducing myself [Re: trevek]
VDJ Offline

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Point well taken !


#309351 - 12/31/06 04:31 PM Re: Introducing myself [Re: VDJ]
TimBlack Offline

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
I can see that there may be questions about how legitimate/good jaspa's tuition may be... but we don't really know. I think we should encourage people to check that their instructors are good and respectable, but recently I've begun to resent the sheer amount of distrust going on. Personally, I don't really care that much whether Jaspa's training is top-notch or not; he's obviously enjoying it, and it certainly isn't harmful. As Jaspa gets better he may suddenly realise that the school he's at isn't as good as he thought it was - on the other hand, he may realise just how good it is.

I don't think it's possible for us to pass judgement on his school simply from the website and what the 'official' curriculum is; often you have very good instructors within poor organisations, and poor instructors within good organisations. In the case of well-known frauds, there is usually a fair amount of criticism to those who have actually been trained by the individual/org; in this case, since all we have is the briefest of brief glances into the practices of Rhee and his org, I really don't feel we are in a position to judge.

So, here's the upshot: I say that, from now on, we: 1) Give instructors/orgs the 'benefit of the doubt (ie. not deliberately trying to find stuff that's wrong), 2) Stop talking constantly about belts, 3) Leave a sticky (maybe in the 'READ ME FIRST thread') outlining the basic ways to spot good vs. bad instruction, and 4) Stop questioning everyone new's quality of instruction. It's just not worth it.

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#309352 - 01/01/07 12:30 AM Re: Introducing myself [Re: TimBlack]
jasperdaman Offline

Registered: 12/20/06
Posts: 367
Loc: Australia
I agree fully with Tim, i'm not so concerned about wat belt im wearing as i am how my technique,speed and power are. I'd happiliy go without a belt if need be aslong as i can see im getting better. I also agree that u cant really properley comment on sum1's martial art until uve been to a few lessons and talked to the instructors there. And Tae Kyon defientaley isnt TKD lol i dont no wat the guy who wrote that was on. As u no i have been training for 10 months now or so and i really dont have that much background to speak of so commenting all ur questions is very hard for me but i try my best :P My instructors r great people and great instructors and i have alot of respect for them. If ur ever down in australia VDJ gimme a shout and i'd be more then happy to take u to a couple classes with me

#309353 - 01/03/07 11:50 PM Re: Introducing myself [Re: jasperdaman]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I checked with a friend of mine, from down under that part of the planet. He said GM Chong Chul Rhee left the ITF back in 1978. He didn't have much more to say at this time. So as I thought from the website, he was ITF at a time. he may have been one of the early ones in that area. Please ask him to give some more information on his history. I think it would be kool to see it.
Thanks & continued good luck.

#309354 - 01/06/07 12:56 AM Re: Introducing myself [Re: ITFunity]
Robb Offline

Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 18
Loc: Aus
Master Rhee Chong Chul
Was hand picked during his service in the Korean Marines to learn the then new South Korean military sponsored martial art and then teach Taekwondo. Master Rhee Chong Chul is one of the 1st x 12 Korean Masters under General Choi to be sent out by the South Korean Government around the world to spread the Korean art. Master Rhee’s fierce military background, amazing Taekwondo skills and leadership ability are common knowledge to most of the Korean community.

General Choi/Master Rhee Chong Chul
Most of the original Masters ceased all association with General Choi when he defected to the Communist North in 1973 (as all the original Masters were all South Korean’s & most had families still residing in SK ) as a result General Choi wrote most of the original Masters (that did not follow him after his defection) out of ITF history. The few like Master Rhee Ki Ha that retuned to General Choi after he restabilised him self in Canada still remain in the “official” ITF history books.

Rhee Taekwondo School
Rhee Taekwondo still teaches the original Chang-Hon style (no Sine-wave & competition). Hyungs taught are the original Choi-ji Hyung in original formal order (pre General Choi’s 1973 split, and ITF rebirth & reorganisation in Canada 1980). Rhee Taekwondo is self defence originated.

Rhee TKD Black Belt
The average person training 3 supervised nights/lessons a week, that is fit, flexible, listens and follows instruction will achieve black belt in 3 to 5 years. However some gifted individuals have attainted a Rhee Taekwondo black belt quicker than 3 years but they are few.

Rhee TKD websites
There is no official Rhee Taekwondo website, Master Rhee is the head of the organisation and he doesn’t like or trust the Internet as per most elder people. However each region may run their own web sites for advertising purposes if they believe they are necessary. However most regions don’t but a small number do. These sites are not regulated by Master Rhee as he believes each region Sabumnim should do the right thing, as they are his students.

#309355 - 01/06/07 01:36 AM Re: Introducing myself [Re: Robb]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Thank you very much! I actually saw the info on the 1st link already. I didn't realize he was on there. Thats wonderful & thanks again for sharing it.
The 2nd link has some misinformation. The ITF was actually headquartered in Canada, from 1972 to 1985. It was moved to Vienna, Austria in 1985, to allow better access to socialist, communist & other Countries located in that region, as it was already in Asia & N. America. In fact, I think its Constitution states that it must remain there permantly. Ambassador Choi, lived in Canada & was a Canadian citizen till his death in 2002. He did leave at the end of his life, to die in the homeland of his birthplace. He never defected there, but he did exile himself to Canada in 1972.

The 1st time he went to NK was 1979. He then set up the plans to introduce his art there the next year (1980). So his leaving SK in 1972, had nothing to do with NK. It was because of the political strife between him & the dictator of SK Gen. Park, who took over in May 1961 via a military coup. He remained in power till he was assainated by his own KCIA chief in 1978. Also, GM Rhee, Ki Ha, never left the Ambassador. He was loyal to him till the end & has followed his dying wish till this day.

#309356 - 01/06/07 04:39 AM Re: Introducing myself [Re: ITFunity]
Robb Offline

Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 18
Loc: Aus
Thank you for response. General Choi was obviously a talented martial artist and leader as he was instrumental along with the South Korean Government in the birth of Taekwondo. General Choi has my respect however if you read further than your ITF encyclopedia’s, your friends advice and General Choi interviews the truth is a very sorry affair. General Choi rightly or wrongly is still known as traitor in South Korea, no matter how it has been written since by the ITF faithful. Fact, he was never permitted back into South Korea after his defection to the communist north in the 70’s. Here is a more ITF sympathetic take of events
Have you very asked yourself why you or other ITF-er’s do not know of the first class of TKD Masters and the important work they ALL did in formalised TKD as an international martial arts system.
Which of the “official” ITF organisations are truthful = Canada, Vienna or North Korea – I wonder how they have written their history of events following General Choi death - in their claim to be the ‘Official” ITF body.
What does it matter, if you have a strong Sabum and a dedicated Master, us students of the art should put all our energies into our training. Good luck to everyone training in any Taekowndo school, traditional, freestyle, progressive as long as they are training in the sincere spirit that TKD was born from and are personally moving forward in their development!

#309357 - 01/06/07 11:20 AM Re: Introducing myself [Re: Robb]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes. I have found that the more open I remain & the more research I do, the more obvious it becomes that there were many that were instrumental in the development & spread of TKD. I appricate that link & have read it before.
It is just that he did not go to NK till 1979. Then in 1980 he brought the team there. That was the final straw for many of his loyal instructors. I do think that history will eventually sort everything out. It usually does. However, time is needed.
I also wouldn't characterize it as a defection to the north.

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