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22750 Members
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Max Online: 307 @ 02/21/13 09:36 AM
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#308985 - 06/12/07 09:06 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: TeK9]
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Member
Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Montréal
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Quote:
I wish I knew the terms of what exactly the ITF wants from the WTF.
Honestly, so do I. The two styles seem to be flourishing without a merger. The current rift on the ITF side notwithstanding.
Again, I think the "idealistic" view that TKD will unite Korea died with the General. Even if the WTF and the ITF NK merged, there would still be two ITF organizations left out of the loop.
As far as claims of who started this, created that, etc, I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. There was a difference in opinion from the start as to whether or not their should be a great deal of influence from the kwans. But the decisions were made by committee, often in that environment you get consensus rather than true agreement. (My definition for this kind of decision making is that everyone walks away equally unhappy) Obviously, that difference in opinion was exagerrated once the split was official.
As for recognition (or lack thereof) from the SK Govt, that's merely a fact without follow-up, not an arguement for legitimacy one way or the other. Nationalists see themselves as patriots regardless of the approval of the sitting govt. There are more than enough examples of this to illustrate the point.
We are arguing two sides of the same point of view here, and while I don't necessarily agree with the finer points of your opinion, I do conceed the broader concept that a merger is more likely to be detrimental to one side or the other rather than beneficial.
Edited by ITFJJ (06/12/07 09:06 AM)
_________________________
ITF II Dan
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#308986 - 06/13/07 12:48 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: TeK9]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
ITFunity,When Master Choi founded the ITF he was not teaching TaeKwonDo as it is known today. He was teaching just another version of Korean Karate. When did he finally start teaching the Chong Hon style that is practiced today?
I wuld say that when his textbook, commonly referred to as teh bible of TKD was printed in 1972, that his signature for a newer more distinct TKD came about. Of course it still evolved & was further documented in his 1983 15 volume Encylpoedia of TKD. However, there were more changes in my judgement from the 1965 text to the 1972 text, than there was from 1972 text to the 1983 text.
So the best time would be 1972.
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#308987 - 06/13/07 12:53 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: TeK9]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
ITFunity, Also there were already many Korean instructors teaching Korean Karate all over the world. There have been many Masters who claim that when they spoke to General Choi, that he asked them to call there art Taekwondo in order to spread the art and make it distinctive from Japanese karate. Although I cannot name many of the master from the magazines I have read, currently Jhoon Rhee who is considered the father of American TKD comes to mind. Would this not give the right for any Korean Master to use the name Taekwondo if they were teaching a martial art that was taught to them by a Korean master? This would eliminate anyone being known as the founder of Taekwondo as art.
Yes, you are right on both issues. However, the 1st, even though they may be entitled to call what they do as TKD, that does not mean that there was still not one founder of their system. It than goes back to what TKD is. So if it is ageneric or umbrella term like your 1st point implies, then yes, they are of course entitled. However, if one feels that Gen Choi founded TKD, then that of course is a different arguement. I thkn Choi started his own system. He of course called it TKD. However, many do not agree that what he does or foundedd is TKD, so we are back to WHAT is the definition of TKD. Until that is defined, everyone is right or wrong, to some extent. JMHO
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#308988 - 06/13/07 12:58 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFJJ]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
This is just more evidence that any merger is ill-conceived and likely ill-fated. We go back around the mulberry bush about the legitimacy of General Choi as the founder. The fact that the Gen. was the first person to forward the name Taekwon Do has never been, in my experience, legitimately disputed. It was still a committee decision. So they can all take credit for it if they like, but it was the Gen. who proposed it.
So what? I propose things in meetings at work all the time. Sometimes they are instituted and have national-level impacts. If I was working in a consensus based job, I could then go around saying that "it was all my idea" but the whole committee would have to agree, so it becomes shared. Hence why SK continued to use the name after everything else went on. Not to mentione the fact that so many "goodwill" demonstrations had gone on all over the world. SK would have had a lot of egg on their face if they just up and changed the name of their national sport because some general had fallen out of favour.
Yes, but remember, it was 1955 that the name was 1st used. However, it was only or mostly Gen Choi's students that were using it up to 1965, when the KTA adopted it, at his push & of course not till 1978, when the Kwans were disolved & numbered, with all taking the name of TKD.
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#308989 - 06/13/07 01:03 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: TeK9]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
The WTF now goes even as far as calling TKD it's national sport, you would think this would be enough to appease the ITF org. which claims it's an art.
Yes, but remember it was Ambassador Choi who was very influential in getting it regarded as their National MA & sport, while he was still powerful & living in SK.
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#308990 - 06/13/07 01:06 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFJJ]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
Even if the WTF and the ITF NK merged, there would still be two ITF organizations left out of the loop.
Yes, but don't you think that if the merger happens it will hurt the other 2 ITFs, maybe to a point that they become less or even insignificant?
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#308991 - 06/13/07 09:28 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFunity]
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Member
Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Montréal
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Quote:
Quote:
Even if the WTF and the ITF NK merged, there would still be two ITF organizations left out of the loop.
Yes, but don't you think that if the merger happens it will hurt the other 2 ITFs, maybe to a point that they become less or even insignificant?
Honestly no. I think the damage is done in so far as the divide between the ITFs. ITF NK going into merger with WTF would (in my opinion) only further marginalize it from within and without.
For example. The club that I was last associated with held a meeting of all the adult black belts to discuss which ITF we would fall under. The vote was cast and we followed Master Tran. About a year later our instructor's, who were former students of Master Lu, came back to us to ask us to re-think our original decision. I had originally made my decision based on some fairly solid criteria and nothing had changed If anything, the situation had worsened. Out of respect to them, I didn't vote against them, but could not vote for the change to the ITF NK org. So I abstained. I also know that I wasn't the only one who felt this strongly about it. I haven't kept in touch with them, but I would be surprized to find out that they have changed their minds.
I have since re-located and am training at a CTFI (Master Tran's org) club. While I still have the utmost respect for my former instructor's and Master Lu, I feel much more comfortable with this "political" situation.
Normally I wouldn't mix politics with training, but because my instructors invited me to be part of the decision-making process, I made what I thought to be a sound decision and have not heard any convincing arguments that would change my mind.
All that to say, I think there are a number of others in the ITF NK organization (such as those other students in my last club) who will be less happy about a merger than was originally thought, due to the predicted changes to the ITF syllabus that we have discussed earlier in this thread. They will likely then seek another organization to represent. At that point either Master Tran or Master Choi's organization will be their logical next step unless they wish to move on to an independant org. That said, this will only happen when the changes brought about by the merger are actually felt on the training floor in ITF clubs outside of Korea.
Coles notes: I don't believe that it will be the ITF Vienna or even the ITF Canada that will be marginalized. More likely I see ITF NK becoming less significant to practitioners world-wide because of what they will be forced to give up to merge with the WTF.
_________________________
ITF II Dan
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#308992 - 06/19/07 05:10 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFJJ]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Interesting reply. I have to admit that I do tend to agree with some of your valid points. You have forced me to think & that is good & I thank you for that!
I just think that many underestimate the whole geo-political effect that can influence a potential merger. If it goes the way I see it, the ITF-NK will be strengthened by those that will join it & weakened, by those who will leave it for your stated reasons. I just think that there are more independents that may gravitate towards the ITF-NK, if a merger happens with the WTF. The media attention alone will be tremendous. Of course both the ITF C & V, will attract the purists, but they are, I am afraid a dwindling group (of which I proudly am part of).
Stay tuned I guess. Time will tell. However, I see on the ITF-V website, the majority of their members want Olympic access & they said they will pursue it as well.
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#308993 - 06/22/07 12:36 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFunity]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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There was the 2nd coordination meeting earlier this week between the ITF-NK & WTF. If anyone hears of any news, please post. I will do the same.
Thanks
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#308994 - 10/30/07 11:12 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFunity]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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The 3rd coordination meeting was held last week in Beijing China between the WTF & ITF-NK.Apparently they set up 2 additional sub-committees. One will handle sparring & the other patterns. In addition, they will work on a location & date for future meetings.......
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