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#308975 - 06/07/07 07:55 PM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: TeK9]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
1 - Let me start off by saying that it would be a beautiful reunion for the people of Korea if the two Governments unified. I for one pray this happens soon.
2- Second, the General made a goodwill trip to North Korea under the cover of peace, unification and the expansion of not Korean Taekwondo which was aleady being practiced in South Korea, but for ITF Chong Hon Tae Kwon-Do the only style of taekwondo he acknowledges to be true and pure taekwondo as he gives himself sole credit for creating it. This is why many have labeled him as traitor and why his action was considered a capital offense.
3- In a different perspective it can be seen as one entrepreneur tapping a new source of oppertunity. As North Korea is closed off to the world and is opposed with everything South Korean. Accepting this style of TKD brought by a man who self exiled himself from their neighboring enemy would not be difficult to accept. Nothing wrong with that as this is the way of capitalism. Every business organization and do not full yourselves folks, the ITF is a business organization just like the WTF and this is what organizations do. They are trying to grow and diversify.
4- Just like the current merger that is trying to happen right now. It's all about the $$$
5- To give an example of how impossible it is for these countries to merge. The only border that is peacefully occupied by both of these nations is guarded by North Koreans on one side and by American allies on the South Korean side and tensions are extremely high there. Thats right folks, the troops guarding the South Korean side are not even Korean, they are American. An example of how petty this competition is; no soldier on either side is under 5'10. And all soldiers on the South Korean side must be at least 6' feet tall. It's a stand off.
6- There is no communication between troops, all troops on guard are on full alert, and it's not like messages are past on by one carrier to another, if one side wishes to speak with the other, a troop goes out and states that they are going to make an announcement on a mega phone. Then they proceed to make the announcement in public. The other side usually does not respond, however, they record everything. All actions are being recorded.
1- Agree totally. It is sad that they are not united, with familes cut off totally, since 1945!
2- It was simply against the law in the ROK for any citizen to travel to the north, regardless of the reason. Most people could not care why he went. He went & thats the problem. Keep in mind, he went at great personal risk, as he was a major general in the oppossing army in a war that did not technally ever end, still to this day. In addition, he was re-united with many of his family members, which is a sad fact that few Koreans could have ever done. Now, sadly, many are no longer living.
In addition, he called what he did TKD, as most others did not. He started using the name from 1955, even ordering his troops to say TaeKwon, when saluting. If you know your history in this area, few were using the name TKD, outside of the Oh Do kwan, which he commanded & the Chung Do Kwan, where many of his top instructors came from. It was not till August of 1965, that the KTA changed the name to TaeKwon-Do, from Tae Soo Do, when now retired 2 star major general Choi returned from Malyasia as the Ambassador & was elected president of the KTA. In fact, it was him that made the change. It was then he, who formed the ITF in 1966, 7 years before the WTF. By this time, many of the instructors teaching worldwide were his. Of course not all were, but few of them & some of them still don't use the name TKD. So that is 1 of the reasons he did not think anyone else was doing TKD. (I don't adopt that position, as it is too hard to argue thatpoint with so many WTF members & Olympic status etc.)
3- Agree for the most part.
4- Agree as well, but I see &/or accept the connection to the Koreas more.
5- Yes I have experienced that
6- Yes I saw that in a documentary
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#308976 - 06/08/07 12:32 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFunity]
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Prolific
Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10411
Loc: Great White North
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I personally don't see any reason to unify the two. They both have similarities but differences as well ... and the same goes for Karate. I think the world is big enough to house all of them and if they never come together then that is fine by me.
There is too much politics and when that happens nobody wins. Politics even within ones own system with changes is a pain so by unifying the two I believe would be an even greater pain in the butt and if it ever happened I would hope my school would not change and if it did then I would be looking at leaving. There is no room in my training for politics.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"
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#308977 - 06/08/07 08:50 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: Dereck]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
I personally don't see any reason to unify the two. They both have similarities but differences as well ... and the same goes for Karate. I think the world is big enough to house all of them and if they never come together then that is fine by me.
There is too much politics and when that happens nobody wins. Politics even within ones own system with changes is a pain so by unifying the two I believe would be an even greater pain in the butt and if it ever happened I would hope my school would not change and if it did then I would be looking at leaving. There is no room in my training for politics.
Yes, I see what you are saying & I agree. However, when it comes to politics there unfortunately is no way around it. In TKD, as with all other like ventures, there is always politics. Think office politics, etc.
However, in the context of any ITF & WTF merger, there is not only the individual internal politics with & within each respective group, & the politics between the groups, but there is the real politics (in the government sense) between the 2 Koreas, Nations still technically at war. This is the perspective that many non-Koreans or just TKD players do not see or appreciate the depth of its entaglement with TKD.
JMHO
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#308978 - 06/09/07 07:52 PM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFunity]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
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Sounds to much like a conspiracy theory to me. A country is going to turn it's back on one of it's highest decorated generals. If it is true that Master Choi came up with the name of Taekwondo, why would the Korean government use that name created by him. 
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci
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#308979 - 06/09/07 11:27 PM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: TeK9]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
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Quote:
Sounds to much like a conspiracy theory to me. A country is going to turn it's back on one of it's highest decorated generals.
If it is true that Master Choi came up with the name of Taekwondo, why would the Korean government use that name created by him.
Yes it does & thats what makes it so interesting. I think many will be amazed when they read Dr. Kimm He Young's book on the history of the Korean MAs. He has said the SK Govt will not be happy with what he writes & what he writes is all backed up by evidence as any good scholar does.
As to why they used the name he picked? Well at 1st they did not. It wasn't till he & his students, those early pioneers started spreading it qaround the world, making it very popular. So when Mr. Choi was elected president of the KTA in 1965, he changed the name back to TKD, then started the ITF & the rest is as they say HISTORY.
As far as him falling out of favor with the SK Govt, remember he went to NK in 1979 & then introduced TKD there in 1980. At that time, it was a capital offense for any SK person to travel to NK.
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#308980 - 06/10/07 06:09 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFunity]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
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ITFunity,
I'd like to ask you some questions regarding Master CHoi and history of TKD. I will begin by stating that I feel that I am skeptical regarding what many ITF affiliates would have everyone believe about Master Choi. I don't think that ITF TKD is any different than TSD with regards to philosophy, techniques, and the method in which they practice. I have read information both on Master Choi and the WTF. I say it like that because when it comes down to it, it is one man versus an organization of masters. Although the ITF is far bigger than one man, he is at the head, the buck seems to stop with him, unlike the WTF. What I mean is that if you ask a random TKD student to name a WTF master or one of the original kwan masters, they wouldn't know the answer. And personally I like the idea of a bunch of masters forming an organization with no super star celebrities to outshine anyone. Well truth be told, I don't like the idea of an organization, but if there had to be one, I prefer a select group of top masters and not just one primodonna. So that is how I view things so far, I'll begin with my questions.
When Master Choi founded the ITF he was not teaching TaeKwonDo as it is known today. He was teaching just another version of Korean Karate. When did he finally start teaching the Chong Hon style that is practiced today?
It seems that he came up with a name before he actually came up with an art. Koreans are famous for taking credit for something someone else created first. Often they change the name of things in order to reinvent it. As example you can look u many of their arts that are renamed. Shotokan, kendo, judo, Muay Thai. Tang Soo Do, yudo, kumdo. The name for MT has currently slipped my mind. But you see where I'm going with this.
Also there were already many Korean instructors teaching Korean Karate all over the world. There have been many Masters who claim that when they spoke to General Choi, that he asked them to call there art Taekwondo in order to spread the art and make it distinctive from Japanese karate. Although I cannot name many of the master from the magazines I have read, currently Jhoon Rhee who is considered the father of American TKD comes to mind. Would this not give the right for any Korean Master to use the name Taekwondo if they were teaching a martial art that was taught to them by a Korean master? This would eliminate anyone being known as the founder of Taekwondo as art.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci
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#308981 - 06/11/07 07:17 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: TeK9]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
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Tek, apparently he even asked Mas Oyama about Kyokoshin becoming part of the TKD banner. Interesting when I'm sure many Koreans have mixed feelings about Oyama's status as a Korean (pledging loyalty to Japan).
Interesting how the ITF manifesto/constitution claims Gen. Choi founded TKD 'in perfection'. This would mean it 'sprang fully formed' and needs no changes or improvements.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!
Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"
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#308982 - 06/11/07 02:22 PM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: trevek]
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Member
Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Montréal
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This is just more evidence that any merger is ill-conceived and likely ill-fated. We go back around the mulberry bush about the legitimacy of General Choi as the founder. The fact that the Gen. was the first person to forward the name Taekwon Do has never been, in my experience, legitimately disputed. It was still a committee decision. So they can all take credit for it if they like, but it was the Gen. who proposed it.
So what? I propose things in meetings at work all the time. Sometimes they are instituted and have national-level impacts. If I was working in a consensus based job, I could then go around saying that "it was all my idea" but the whole committee would have to agree, so it becomes shared. Hence why SK continued to use the name after everything else went on. Not to mentione the fact that so many "goodwill" demonstrations had gone on all over the world. SK would have had a lot of egg on their face if they just up and changed the name of their national sport because some general had fallen out of favour.
As for his exile, would it have been better if he had been executed? Would that lend more credibility to his claims to the art? Probably not, they would just erase his history as they have already tried to and the ITF wouldn't exist at all.
Although I think that some practitioners of ITF have gone too far to deify the Gen, I also feel that many of the WTF practitioners go too far to protest his legacy for there not to be credence in it. The old "Methinks they doth protest too much" adage.
WTF would never accept the recognition of the Gen in their syllabus, and the ITF wouldn't be willing to bury him. So the likelihood of a merger at anything other than the micro level is very slim.
_________________________
ITF II Dan
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#308983 - 06/11/07 11:04 PM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: ITFJJ]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
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Quote:
I also feel that many of the WTF practitioners go too far to protest his legacy for there not to be credence in it. The old "Methinks they doth protest too much" adage.
I'm not so sure what to think, I'm not even sure if I should even care to think, if it's even worth thinking about. Books written by Masters affiliated with the WTF never make mention of the names of the original Kwan masters. They give credit to everyone, they do not single nor give sole credit to one person. They truly describe Taekwondo as the nations art. An art that has spread throughout the world and is now the most practiced martial art and is even an Olympic sport. A very unified art and a growing popular sport. An art sanctioned by the Korean government, and heads all other bodies around the world under it's umbrella.
Now on the other hand you have the ITF an organization that claims to study a Korean art but is not acknowledge by the Korean government. It was created by one man who claims to have created the name and the art. Because he is Korean he to claims it is a Korean art although his own government doesn't acknowledge it. To me this new art tends to resemble the old arts practiced by the original Kwans, although many of the techniques in this new art have been given different names. The exact techniques can be found in this new art and even the emphasis on kicks as it is practiced in the other Korean arts. Yet this art is a new art.
To me the ITF wants to share the credit that the WTF has attained. The WTF now goes even as far as calling TKD it's national sport, you would think this would be enough to appease the ITF org. which claims it's an art.
I wish I knew the terms of what exactly the ITF wants from the WTF.
When learning WTF TKD you are not expected to know the names of the original kwans, nor are you expected to know the names of the original kwan masters. You aren't even expected to know the name of the WTF's president. Those who compete may or may not know the names of the USTA affiliates as their money goes to them whenever they any fee's for tournaments.
Baiscally what is taught in these WTF dojangs is the origins of TKD, which most people by now other than Koreans know that WTF as it is practiced today is hardly 60 years old.
It is also widely accepted that it derived from Shotokan and other martial arts not of Korean culture.
This is the secret lie that the WTF maintains. That Taekwondo was once taekyon, subak and eventually TKD.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci
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#308984 - 06/12/07 08:44 AM
Re: Union of ITF and WTF
[Re: TeK9]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
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I thinl they should just cut to the chase and have an NHB TKD death match to sort it all out (but then they'd probably spend the next million years debating the rules)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!
Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"
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