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#308925 - 12/19/06 11:18 AM Union of ITF and WTF
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
Hey, I saw a news post on the WTF website about them meeting with the ITF trying to come to some sortof agreement or concenious (sp?) or something about Taekwondo. They said that they where currently trying to resolve differences in technique and would then resolve differences in managment style. What do you guys think.

Personaly I'm not sure I exactly know what is going on but I'm excited. ITF seems to be more self defense oriented but doesn't have the emphasis on sparing that WTF does. Mabey Olympic sparring might start allowing more punching

-Umbra

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#308926 - 12/19/06 11:23 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Umbra_777]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes many of us have been watching this for decades. They 1st started talks back in the early 80s. They have taken a more serious turn since 2003. They key to the talks are that it is not the WTF that is pushing it, as they would much prefer to just absorb the ITF. Rather it is the governments of the 2 Koreas that are pushing for it. So it will help the ITF pull it off, as it was a longtime held dream of their Founder. The question remains when & in what form???????

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#308927 - 12/20/06 04:39 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Umbra_777]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I am totally against the merge. I for one do not think any of the techniques in WTF TKD should change. I am only for change in the way most schools practice. I also want the emphasis on sport to go away. I don't want the underlying philosophy to be on winning. I want it to be on surviving. I am one to admit that much of the sports orientated aspect has evolved many of the WTF techniques for the better, such as the kicking and the footwork, however, there as also been a down side to this, a down side which afects WTF TKD as an effective martial arts system. By down playing or ignoring the hand technqieus all together has weaken the state of TKD in terms of self defense. Also by replacing effective hand techniques which are best for self defense and adding tricky kicking techniques such as spinng jumping kicks are axe kicks, you have decreased taekwondo not only as a system of self defense but as a real based fighting system. While at the sametime increased it's uniqueness as a combat sport.

This has change the philosophy from self control as a person (eastern value). To a more competative person (western value).
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#308928 - 12/20/06 10:50 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Well I am still unsure of the merger. However, it does sound like the merger may help your cause.

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#308929 - 12/21/06 03:21 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
ShangTsung Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 104
Loc: Bomb factory
I am for this merger 100% im hoping it will finish all the politics and allow both to compete in olympics. I think they both have some different techniques and footwork. it will be interesting to see how the sylabus changes (note im currently in TAGB).

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#308930 - 12/21/06 03:36 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ShangTsung]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Shang, I'm curious as to whether any merger will affect TAGB/ TKD International. When I was in TAGB they were not part of either ITF or WTF. Has this changed at all?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#308931 - 12/21/06 03:45 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
To much drama within ITF people, in other threads they are talking about the appropriate title to call Gen. Choi. The WTF doesn't even acknowledge Gen. Choi at all. If you pick up a book by a TKD artist not part of the ITF, they wont even mention Choi. If the name Choi plays such a crucial role in ITF orgs, then I doubt this merger will ever happen. Names are of masters are really not an issue among WTF/Kukkiwon practitioners, only the competitors are known.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#308932 - 12/21/06 03:52 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Funny thing is I was once on a seminar with GM General Ambassador Founder Choi and someone asked about different kinds of TKD. He declared there was only one TKD... his, and WTF practised 'phoney TKD'. That devil on my shoulder prompted the next question and I heard my mouth asking "Then how do you see any proposed merger with WTF?" Oh, if I had that look I wouldn't need a fridge.

The ITF guy with Gen Choi answered saying they'd talked with WTF and WTF were prepared to cooperate in any way possible.

That was in 1994. Later an open letter from Gen C. was printed in TKD times, decrying WTF.

sadly, I think it is only the General's death which has allowed this new development.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#308933 - 12/21/06 04:50 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ShangTsung]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I am for this merger 100% im hoping it will finish all the politics and allow both to compete in olympics. I think they both have some different techniques and footwork. it will be interesting to see how the sylabus changes (note im currently in TAGB).





My gut feeling is that the competition rules will change just slightly. maybe to allow more punches or hand techniques. The competition may also be expanded to include other events such as patterns, power, special techniques & SD routines. These all are presently part of the ITF tournaments, so they may want it to be broadened.

Also the ITF will most likely push for their patterns to be used. Many WTF people do say they like them. Some even do them. Maybe that will be part of the package. Of course, next comes the federations themselvesd. Will there be 1 or 2? If they merge as well, what form would it take?

However, no matter what happens, little will change in individual schools, unless they want to adopt the new sparring rules. What will happen & it is already happening, is the ITF will lose some of its standardization. Any merger will most likely speed up & increase the effect. JMHO

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#308934 - 12/21/06 04:52 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
U R Rite!

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#308935 - 12/21/06 04:54 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Funny thing is I was once on a seminar with GM General Ambassador Founder Choi ......





Outstanding!

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#308936 - 12/21/06 04:57 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

sadly, I think it is only the General's death which has allowed this new development.




Yes, this has helped, but it really is the geo-politics of the 2 Koreas that is pushing this. I truly believe that the WTF does not want a merger. In fact, many of their leaders have hard feelings towards the ITF & its 1st president. However, they are now getting pressure from the Korean people & their government.

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#308937 - 12/21/06 05:52 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
ITFunity, glad you liked the new title

2 questions;

Am I right in thinking that one of the problems with earlier negotiations was General Choi's insistence that he be recognised as Founder of TKD?

Do you think the ITF would survive a merger?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#308938 - 12/22/06 12:23 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Am I right in thinking that one of the problems with earlier negotiations was General Choi's insistence that he be recognised as Founder of TKD?
Do you think the ITF would survive a merger?





I do not know what you mean by earlier negotiations. There were very early attempts to have the ITF work with the KTA, when Ambassador Choi was no longer the KTA president (post 1966). As the KTA, that Ambassador Choi was the 3rd president of (in 1965), grew in power & influence, there were attempts to merge patterns & the like. Once he exiled himself to Canada (1972), there were attempts to work things out. Some sources have told me that he did not wish to work things out.
In circa 1980/1 CK Choi & JC Kim headed the merger talks, but they did not go too far. By then the ITF was on its last legs. The WTF was too powerful & probably not willing to give much. GM JC Kim I believe was the leading force behind the creation of the ITF. He raised the funds, designed the patch. He was sorely missed when he left. Most of the oversea Korean instructors were leaving, especially after he went to NK in 1980. Some never forgave him for that. However, that was how he garnered the necessary power/support to save & re-grow the ITF.

In the late 80s & 90s, the WTF posture was yes, ITF members could join at anytime. This made any merger difficult. It was not until the Soviet Union collasped & when the military governments ended in the ROKorea, that the political climate changed. This was due to the Sunshine Policy of engagement put forth to Kim, Jong Il, by Kim, Dae Jung, the then president of the ROK, on June 15, 2000. (Ironically 2 years to the day, prior to the Ambassador passing.) It netted Mr. Kim the Nobel Peace Prize. BTW, this Sunshine was preceded by 21 years, by the outreach of Ambassador Choi, when he 1st visited NK. History will most likely salute him for this, correcting the slurs that he was subjected to.

In any event, moving into the present round of merger talks, you are probably right, to am extent. Remember, first & above all IMHO was/is the fact the some in the WTF had strong & hard feelings towards Ambassador Choi. However, these talks are being pushed/motivated by the 2 governments & the Korean people. The WTF was always the biggest block to a merger, as what was in it for them?

That being said, in 2003, one of the 1st points on the agenda was the founder issue & an apology to the ITF & its members. Now this was 2003, after he passed. His student(s) insisted on it. My sense is that this was part of the protocol all along, but I can not say for certain at this time.
So a very long answer is of course yes, but it was only 1 of many roadblocks that were/are in the way.

I honestly do not know if the ITF can survive the passing of our founder, never mind the merger. The merger has the potential to both help the ITF, ITF-NK at least, but also an equal or greater potential to hurt the ITF(s). A lot will naturally be determined by what face or shape the merger takes. My worry & concerns are that motivation by one side is politically guided & as such, the survival of my beloved Art will not be protected.

My gut tells me that the ITF-C may follow the merger, depending on what shape it takes. I do not think the ITF-V will have any part in it. So that may be the best alternative for those who wish to keep the standardization of a wonderful Art. If that is what pans out, it will truly be ironic that the Founder's Korean Art of SD will be kept alive by the ITF that has little or no visible Korean leadership. Which BTW goes along with what the Founder taught.

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#308939 - 12/22/06 05:42 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
Thanks, very intereseting.

Quote:

That being said, in 2003, one of the 1st points on the agenda was the founder issue & an apology to the ITF & its members. Now this was 2003, after he passed. His student(s) insisted on it. My sense is that this was part of the protocol all along, but I can not say for certain at this time.




An apology for what? Going to NK?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#308940 - 12/22/06 09:52 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
So, you have;

People who are fully supportive of unification.
People who are wholly against unification.
People who haven't made their mind up.
People who don't care.

So what's new!

Doesn't sound like it's going to be sorted out any time soon does it.

_________________________
John L

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#308941 - 12/22/06 10:32 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Thanks, very intereseting.
Quote:

That being said, in 2003, one of the 1st points on the agenda was the founder issue & an apology to the ITF & its members. Now this was 2003, after he passed. His student(s) insisted on it. My sense is that this was part of the protocol all along, but I can not say for certain at this time.



An apology for what? Going to NK?





Your welcome.

No the apology was for the WTF writing out of history the contributions of Ambassador Choi, the ITF & its instructors & members. You see, some WTF & government literature speaks about TKD & it being around 2000 years ago. Then it skips to 1973 when the WTF was formed. It touches on the occupation period & post, along with the Korean War. Many times they speak about the Kwans. However, there is little mention of Ambassador Choi & Oh Do Kwan, along with its significant contributions. In fact, some reports list GM Nam Tae Hi as the only founder of Oh Do Kwan.

So at one time, they wanted the record corrected, which some day will be, as history usually sorts it self out after the passing of time & the manipulation that comes during it. They also want an apology for the well documented pressure the government & WTF put on the ITF instructors to leave their teacher.

I would think that many would have & still would want an apology for going to NK. However, it is just that introduction that has opened the doors of talks. This is what is monumental & of course what is driving the talks, as any talks between the 2 Koreas is better than the soldiers staring each other down at the DMZ. In fact, history is likely to record the spread of ITF to NK as a significant & early part of the unification process.

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#308942 - 12/22/06 10:40 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: JohnL]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes unification of the 2 Koreas, no time soon. That is not only probably aq good thing, but very necessary.

Merger of the ITF-NK & WTF. It will happen & sooner then the above stated unification. However, I also don't think it will happen anytime soon. The time will depend on how much the ITF-NK wants or gives up, to realize their aims which have a different motivation. The more I study it, the more I think the time is getting nearer. I hope I am wrong, as I want more to preserve my Art.

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#308943 - 12/26/06 09:28 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Quote:

Shang, I'm curious as to whether any merger will affect TAGB/ TKD International. When I was in TAGB they were not part of either ITF or WTF. Has this changed at all?




This is actually a good point trevek, one I've wondered about myself. I still have some friends from my old TAGB training days.

Basically the TAGB/TKD International are still a body unto themselves, i.e. not affiliated to ITF or WTF.

I wonder how this merger, if and when it happens, will effect "independent" TKD orginizations like the TAGB (that is bodies that teach TKD that are NOT associated to WTF/ITF). Will they still be able to teach TKD? Can they still call it TKD if the WTF and ITF get together and come up with a revised style of TKD?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#308944 - 12/26/06 10:16 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Prizewriter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Good question. I don't know the answer. My guess would be very little will happen, as they are indepent. I guess a group like TKD INt. or TAGB can of course come under the Olympic fold easier, if that is what they wanted. Other than that I think there would be little difference. I don't think much will change on how individual groups or schools do things, other than whatever technical integration takes place. As always, independents can adopt some or all of it.

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#308945 - 12/26/06 04:40 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Umbra_777]
sgtZipper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 25
Loc: the Netherlands
They should not 'merge', because of the different forms and the differences in sparring. I don't think there's is a way for these styles to become one style. I do think they should allow ITF at the Olympics, or at least not call it Taekwon-do at the Olympics, but something like WTF Taekwon-do.
I hate it when people say: 'I saw taekwon-do on the Olympics, they were only kicking and shouting'.
Actually... I don't think WTF taekwon-do (nor ITF taekwon-do) is a real Olympic sport... although it is... hahaha you get the point.

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#308946 - 12/28/06 06:58 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I think because both ITF and WTF, as well as independents, have taken part in TI championships then they might be accepted into Olympics etc.

I think some of the senior instructors in TAGB also have grades registered with WTF
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#308947 - 03/19/07 10:52 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Well I see that the ITF-NK Demo Team is performing again in south Korea, Seoul in early April. The last time they were there was in December of 2002. There are many clips of that demo on you tube & the like. I am guessing that this is a result of the agreement signed by the ITF & WTF at the last Asian Games (Dec. 2002) to work towards technical intergration & administrative merger.

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#308948 - 03/27/07 01:35 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: JohnL]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
The ITF-NK website is reporting that the next meeting with the WTF regarding the technical intergration an administrative merger will take place at the end of March in Beijing, China.

Also during the April 6-9 goodwill tour of South Korea by the ITF-NK Demo Team, the ITF-NK president & IOC Member will pay a protocol visit to the WTF president to futher these aims.

I guess it is moving along!


www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com

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#308949 - 04/05/07 06:35 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Umbra_777]
warriortobe Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 21
Loc: UK
I cant see how a merger would work. The two federations are so different I cant see how either could compromise. ITF has entirely different patterns to WTF, the sparring styles are completly different and mentality and philosophy are inately different. To compromise on any aspect would reshape the art. How would you manage a compromise, particularly on patterns, when they are completely different?
_________________________
Train hard and reap the rewards

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#308950 - 04/05/07 09:01 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: warriortobe]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

I cant see how a merger would work. The two federations are so different I cant see how either could compromise. ITF has entirely different patterns to WTF, the sparring styles are completly different and mentality and philosophy are inately different. To compromise on any aspect would reshape the art. How would you manage a compromise, particularly on patterns, when they are completely different?




Don't be fooled here. This about politics. NK wants to get their players into the olympics (among other things I am sure). ITF members will probably adhere to the olympic sparring rules as it will be easier for them to conform rather than the rest of the world changing who have olympic teams. Now with that said, there really is not that much different between the 2. Putting patterns and the sine wave aside (as well as terminology), the techniques are pretty much the same. ITF's sparring is not that far off either. They do continuous sparring but allow the hands to the head. There are even some venues which allow full contact and KO's as well. I have traveled enough and visited enough of both orgs schools to know that they are not as different as people like to believe !

VDJ

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#308951 - 04/05/07 04:11 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: warriortobe]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I don't see how why they can't unite under a single banner and have two distinct styles, like many Karate orgs do.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#308952 - 04/05/07 10:21 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Which ITF aren't there like 3 or 4 of them. How can the WTF unite with something that is completely disarray? The WTF does not need those kinds of complications. Especially since they are finally getting themselves straighten out particularly in the united states. Each state is re-organizing themselves so that when it comes to picking state and national champs for the Olympics there wont be so much confusion.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#308953 - 04/06/07 03:42 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Tek,

You haven't been reading the thread if your asking which one. They have ONLY been in discussion with the segment that is headquartered in N. Korea (ITF-NK), headed up by Chang Ung. Chang Ung is also on the IOC for NK. They are not acknowledging ITF Vienna or ITF Canada (headed up by General Chois son). This is one of the reasons why it is my belief that it is more politically motivated rather than diplomatically motivated. Still, with all the division within the ITF, their curriculum is far more organized than the WTF's is !

VDJ

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#308954 - 04/07/07 10:44 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Eww why get so sensitive... I asked a simple question, which ITF organization. I made no mention about their curriculum. And besides, your wrong, their curriculum is no more organized than any school. I think you meant to say standardized and if thats the case so be it. I'm glad I am not apart of something that is standardized.

Because each person learns differently. I prefer each instructor brings in what they know not only from their TKD background but from all their MA experience. That way the art continues to grow, it doesn't stay stagnant. What works for one person may not work for another, each person finds their own fit. hehe this sounds like JKD doesn't it. Woot Woot
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#308955 - 04/08/07 08:50 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070406/sp_wl_afp/skoreankoreataekwondoioc_070406043630


This above link has a story on the ITF Demo team visiting Seoul & the ITF-Nk president meeting with the WTF president while there.

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#308956 - 04/08/07 08:54 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Tek, You haven't been reading the thread if your asking which one. They have ONLY been in discussion with the segment that is headquartered in N. Korea (ITF-NK), headed up by Chang Ung. Chang Ung is also on the IOC for NK. They are not acknowledging ITF Vienna or ITF Canada (headed up by General Chois son). This is one of the reasons why it is my belief that it is more politically motivated rather than diplomatically motivated. Still, with all the division within the ITF, their curriculum is far more organized than the WTF's is ! VDJ




Sorry Sir, the ITF-NK is headquartered in Vienna (Wein), Austria, in the same building that is owned by the ITF, which has served as the headquarters before the Founder died in 2001. In fact, the ITF Constitution, I think mandates the headquarters being in Austria. The ITF moved there in 1985, after being in North America (Canada) since 1972 & of course being in Asia (south Korea, in Seoul) since it was formed in 1966.

ITF-V is also in Vienna, but not in the original building. That is something that I imagine will be addressed by the court decision.

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#308957 - 04/09/07 06:32 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
Mike_L Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 420
Loc: Rio Rancho NM/Louisville KY (U...
So how would this work? Would it have olympic sparring and point sparring as seperate parts still, or combine the two?
_________________________
"There is no such thing as Perfection... Only excellence"

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#308958 - 04/09/07 07:31 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Mike_L]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Quote:

So how would this work? Would it have olympic sparring and point sparring as seperate parts still, or combine the two?




Well thats the real question isn't it. Both styles are pretty much the same. The only minor differences are the kind of sparring and the forms for advancement. However, if the ITF wants what the WTF has which is Olympic recognition then they will have to change their style of sparring to WTF's way. I don't think the Olympic sparring will change because it would take away from TKD's uniqueness. What would happen if karate was introduced as a sport, what then would the ITF do would they compete as karate-men.

Also you have to look at the negative effects, the ITF wants the popularity the WTF has that it is willing to become just as sports orientated as the WTF. They will become the very people they criticize. Will the quality of Chon hon TKD drop? Because once you start competing it becomes about winning and who's reputation and so worth.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#308959 - 04/09/07 07:56 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

Eww why get so sensitive... I asked a simple question, which ITF organization. I made no mention about their curriculum. And besides, your wrong, their curriculum is no more organized than any school. I think you meant to say standardized and if thats the case so be it. I'm glad I am not apart of something that is standardized.

Because each person learns differently. I prefer each instructor brings in what they know not only from their TKD background but from all their MA experience. That way the art continues to grow, it doesn't stay stagnant. What works for one person may not work for another, each person finds their own fit. hehe this sounds like JKD doesn't it. Woot Woot




First off, I answered your simple question and was not sensitive to it, but the answer to your question was already in the thread as it has only been about ITF-NK ! So shoot me for saying organized rather than standardized, you know exactly what I meant ! And Chang Hon has been very progressive in their training methods, but when you go to one of their schools and it comes time to perform the patterns, or techniques are called out, they will be the same in every school and not adapted to the instructors will. Yes, not everybody is the same or can perform the same, but a curriculum shouldn't be hodge podge either and it has been my experience that ITF schools do much better at this as well as teaching self defense than WTF schools do as they are too interested in teaching the sport side !

VDJ

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#308960 - 04/09/07 08:00 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Mike_L]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

So how would this work? Would it have olympic sparring and point sparring as seperate parts still, or combine the two?




ITF's sparring is continuous, it is no longer stop point and is very similar to olympic sparring except for the hands to the head.

VDJ

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#308961 - 04/09/07 08:09 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

Quote:

So how would this work? Would it have olympic sparring and point sparring as seperate parts still, or combine the two?




Well thats the real question isn't it. Both styles are pretty much the same. The only minor differences are the kind of sparring and the forms for advancement. However, if the ITF wants what the WTF has which is Olympic recognition then they will have to change their style of sparring to WTF's way. I don't think the Olympic sparring will change because it would take away from TKD's uniqueness. What would happen if karate was introduced as a sport, what then would the ITF do would they compete as karate-men.

Also you have to look at the negative effects, the ITF wants the popularity the WTF has that it is willing to become just as sports orientated as the WTF. They will become the very people they criticize. Will the quality of Chon hon TKD drop? Because once you start competing it becomes about winning and who's reputation and so worth.




Tek,

There has always been a big sport side to the ITF and have had very big competitions. There have also been some very succesful crossovers to olympic sparring as well. I agree that the ITF will probably have to adapt more so to the WTF rules, but there are discussions about changing some of that. Also, the criticisms are from both sides, not just ITF to WTF. And far as I'm concernd, making it an olympic sport is really what has been the downfall of the art. If you are not an enthusist, it is very boring to watch, and being an enthusist, I still find most matches to be boring. They need to do something to put some zing into it !

VDJ

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#308962 - 04/10/07 12:15 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Mike_L]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

So how would this work? Would it have olympic sparring and point sparring as seperate parts still, or combine the two?





Well as has already been stated, the ITF has had continuous sparring, NOT the karate type stop match for at least 3 decades now. So the intergration with respect to the fighting rules will probably center around allowing punches to the head, as the ITF already does & the WTF is already thinking about, as an attempt to speed up the action for the spectators. It may also include having more points for more difficult techniques, like the ITF & gymnastics, diving etc have already.

As far as the patterns, who knows. That remains to be seen. maybe both sets will be allowed, or some combination of them allowed, possibly with the WTF having more, since they have a larger & stronger membership. However, many, including present day WTF, do think the ITF patterns are better.

We also have to see if the rules will now include power (breaking) & special techniques (flying breaking).

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#308963 - 04/10/07 12:16 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
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Quote:

Quote:

Also you have to look at the negative effects, the ITF wants the popularity the WTF has that it is willing to become just as sports orientated as the WTF. They will become the very people they criticize. Will the quality of Chon hon TKD drop? Because once you start competing it becomes about winning and who's reputation and so worth.





This is my main concern!

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#308964 - 04/10/07 12:18 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:


ITF's sparring is continuous, it is no longer stop point and is very similar to olympic sparring except for the hands to the head.
VDJ




Yes, that is correct. It has been that way, since at least 1984, if not sooner. In fact, it probably was sooner, but thats when I remember seeing it & falling in love with it.

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#308965 - 04/10/07 12:21 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

There has always been a big sport side to the ITF and have had very big competitions. There have also been some very succesful crossovers to olympic sparring as well. I agree that the ITF will probably have to adapt more so to the WTF rules, but there are discussions about changing some of that. Also, the criticisms are from both sides, not just ITF to WTF. And far as I'm concernd, making it an olympic sport is really what has been the downfall of the art. If you are not an enthusist, it is very boring to watch, and being an enthusist, I still find most matches to be boring. They need to do something to put some zing into it !
VDJ




Thats the way I see it. It needs some more zing, but I am afraid it will destroy the ITF syllabus.

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#308966 - 04/10/07 01:53 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
What is the real benefit to this merger? What does the WYF really get out of this? In my heart, I know it CANNOT be about better political relations with North Korea.

And I know they care nothing of mending the past, because that would mean finally actually giving Gen. Choi some credit about anything regarding TKD. I mean if you have ever picked up a book written by a Master affiliated with the WTF then you know exactly what I'm talking about. They never EVER mention Master Choi's name. According to them there is no single source for the creation of Tae Kwon Do. Neither in name nor in technique. And just like Gen Choi, the WTF desn't even acknowledge the existances of karate in taekwondo techniques. I know, I know, I'm exagerating a bit. But seriously this is how the Korean Masters claim that Tae Kwon Do is a pure Korean art and that it evolved out of subak and taekyon and so forth. This includes TKD's philosophy and moral creeds as well. These according to scholars stem from the Korean Hwarang Warriors.

So what does the WTF get? Where is the money? This has to be about money.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#308967 - 04/10/07 09:58 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

What is the real benefit to this merger? What does the WYF really get out of this? In my heart, I know it CANNOT be about better political relations with North Korea.

And I know they care nothing of mending the past, because that would mean finally actually giving Gen. Choi some credit about anything regarding TKD. I mean if you have ever picked up a book written by a Master affiliated with the WTF then you know exactly what I'm talking about. They never EVER mention Master Choi's name. According to them there is no single source for the creation of Tae Kwon Do. Neither in name nor in technique. So what does the WTF get? Where is the money? This has to be about money.





I see actually what you are saying & your point is so right on! That is exactly why it is about the larger & more important geo-politcal affairs of the region. The 2 Koreas & the 6 Nations, want something that they can share that is not about such tough issues like Nukes, War, Famine. Sports has been & continues to be the thing that allows them to talk. So it is mainly about the north-south thing.

I also would not be surprised if money was involved, as it has been in the past. In the end, most things, if not all, are all about money.

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#308968 - 06/05/07 09:40 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
For those of you who get or see TKD Times magazine, in the current July of 2007, now on the newstands, there is a story on page 6 about the Fist Tower. The Fist Tower was a monument erected on Jeju Island, where TKD was developed & introduced to the military. It was the home of the 29th Infantry Division, the Fist Division, headed by then Major General Choi Hong Hi. This was the "1st & most little known monument". In 1985, it was taken down. The rumor was that the brother of the Korean president had it taken down. It remained hidden for 15 years until "locals sought out, uncovered & restored to its rightful honor".

This is just another reminder of examples of how much interference there was, caused by the SK govt, to the ITF & its founder, as well as those pioneers that were among the first to spread the Art around the world.

Then in the same issue, the WTF has a full page ad, that also is on their website, clearly stating that "the members of the ITF are not eligible" to enter into their TKD Masters Essay contest.

Very sad & it will be a long & difficult road to a union of these 2 organizations.

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#308969 - 06/06/07 11:14 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
ITFJJ Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Montréal
To tell you the truth, I think you'll see Korea united before TKD. In other words, we can all start waiting for hell to freeze over. I mentioned in another thread about masters tearing down other masters and how it was merely denegrating to thier own style or school... unfortunately that seems to be modus operandi in TKD (of either ilk, having studied both over the years.)

Even (or should I say particularly) the General was guilty of this. He had his reasons, but I have to admit that my opportunity to meet the man is more tainted by his trashing of some of the WTF students who came in to seek instruction on the ITF patterns than by any modicum of honour that I was supposed to have felt just by being able to study under him.

That is not to say that my experience with WTF Masters has been much more pleasant when they have found out that I am/was a student of ITF. The attitude is somewhat akin to what one would expect after having farted in public.

Even the last act of the General prior to his death, willing the ITF to Chang Ung, although seen as an attempt to move the two federations closer together has been (in my opinon) misunderstood. After the ejection of Grandmaster Choi (the son) from the ITF, I think that the General was uncomfortable leaving the ITF in the hands of a non-Korean, constitution be damned. If the ITF was subsequently brought under the Olympic umbrella then so much the better. This guess at his motivation is not entirely a stretch, he was fiercely nationalistic (and good for him, I'm not knocking that) Regardless of what I think, the official line is that this move was going to bring the ITF and WTF together...

First, the WTF would have to get together for that to be effective, and the results of the General's last wishes have done nothing but split the ITF apart. And he was anything but stupid, he must have known the risk that he was taking.

If a "union" was to take place, which "true" factions of the two federations would unite? And you may call me cynical if you wish, but my guess is the portions of each that choose not to unite will then look upon and speak about the new unionized federation as if it were inferior and we'd then have three "official" federations split into multiple factions, with one exception. That unionized portion of the ITF would end up changing its syllabus.....

Yeah, everybody loses.

Sorry [/rant] I just think we should concentrate on mending the ITF before we get too wound up about amalgamating with WTF.

Cheers
JJ
_________________________
ITF II Dan

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#308970 - 06/07/07 07:30 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
TeK9 Offline
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Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I don't see the WTF going anywhere. They have really got there act together as far as the United states is concern. Here in the states they have reorganized the taekwondo unions and replaced entire committees full of greedy administrations business men who were steeling from the WTF. Although now there is less participation due to past handling of such issues. These TKD unions are raking in more money for the WTF than they were in the past with even less participants than before. Now slowly but surely the unions are once again attaining the number of students they once had in the past.

It seems to me that much of the baggage that the General had against the WTF or it's forefather association his ill will has been passed on to his organization and it's affiliates. WHo knows maybe there is something to be said about where the General was born, which is now considered north Korea, perhaps that has also attributed to his ill will.

The ITF should forget about merging with the WTF, and concentrate on unifying it's own organization which has spit in three.

I no longer feel the merger has to do with the unification of Korea, for that to happen many high officials in North Korea need to disappear. The political and ideological differences are to great for something as trivial as Taekwondo to make any difference.

Both the WTF and three ITF orgs. are nothing but money making giants. The art that has now been dubbed Tae Kwon Do and that is popular world wide has been around before these institutions were created and will be here long after these business/marketing giants fade.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#308971 - 06/07/07 10:48 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I agree JJ!

It is very clear to me that he (Ambassador Choi) used TKD for his desire to re-unite his beloved Korea.

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#308972 - 06/07/07 11:56 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

It seems to me that much of the baggage that the General had against the WTF or it's forefather association his ill will has been passed on to his organization and it's affiliates. WHo knows maybe there is something to be said about where the General was born, which is now considered north Korea, perhaps that has also attributed to his ill will.

The ITF should forget about merging with the WTF, and concentrate on unifying it's own organization which has spit in three.

I no longer feel the merger has to do with the unification of Korea, for that to happen many high officials in North Korea need to disappear. The political and ideological differences are to great for something as trivial as Taekwondo to make any difference.





Well as you know Gen Choi was born in a united Korea, in the northern part which is now the DPRK. he lived there exactly 27 years, moving to the southern part, now the ROK, where he helped form their military in what was a fledgling democracy. He yearned for a uniter DEMOCRATIC Korea, as do many or most Koreans. Ironically he lived there for 27 years as well, before he exiled himself to Canada, due to the brutal military dictatorship, established via a military coup.

I think the ITFs will never unite, as a result of the hard feelings, fueled by all the mudslinging & the terrible history of the organization.

The proposed merger between the ITF-NK & the WTF has everything to with the Korean re-unification. Please do not think that it will be TKD that will overcome all the things that you rightly state. It is just that TKD, like other sports, provides an avenue of disscussion on topics that are non-lethal & not heavy in nature. This is just 1 small part in bringing peple together. Thats all, nothing more! Remember it was Ambassador Choi who 1st opened the door to the north in 1979 & then in 1980, when he introduced Taekwon-Do there. At the time it was a capital offense, but it preceded the historic summitt held on June 15, 2000, between the 2 leaders of Korea, by 21 years. The ROK president won the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts called the sunshine policy. But remember it was the Ambassador that 1st let in sunshine when he opened doors & windows to the north, never before opened. Of course when he did it, it was a capital offense. Fortunately for him, he was a Canadian citizen at the time. It was efforts like this that will someday IMHO judge him as a patriot. These & other efforts that he put forth, resulted in a Taekwon-Do practiced throughout the world, anomination for the nobel peace prize, as well as Canada's highest civilian award!

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#308973 - 06/07/07 01:32 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Let me start off by saying that it would be a beautiful reunion for the people of Korea if the two Governments unified. I for one pray this happens soon.

Addressing some of the issues stated above all of which are true however, can also be seen in a different light with alternate motives. Such as the decision of General Choi to exile himself from the very country he served and protected. Noone exiles themselves unless they have a very good reason, one of which and the one that comes to mind is that if your in serious trouble and are saving the embarrassment of having your government exile you, so you save face and do it yourself.

Second, the General made a goodwill trip to North Korea under the cover of peace, unification and the expansion of not Korean Taekwondo which was aleady being practiced in South Korea, but for ITF Chong Hon Tae Kwon-Do the only style of taekwondo he acknowledges to be true and pure taekwondo as he gives himself sole credit for creating it. This is why many have labeled him as traitor and why his action was considered a capital offense.

In a different perspective it can be seen as one entrepreneur tapping a new source of oppertunity. As North Korea is closed off to the world and is opposed with everything South Korean. Accepting this style of TKD brought by a man who self exiled himself from their neighboring enemy would not be difficult to accept. Nothing wrong with that as this is the way of capitalism. Every business organization and do not full yourselves folks, the ITF is a business organization just like the WTF and this is what organizations do. They are trying to grow and diversify.

Just like the current merger that is trying to happen right now. It's all about the $$$

To give an example of how impossible it is for these countries to merge. The only border that is peacefully occupied by both of these nations is guarded by North Koreans on one side and by American allies on the South Korean side and tensions are extremely high there. Thats right folks, the troops guarding the South Korean side are not even Korean, they are American. An example of how petty this competition is; no soldier on either side is under 5'10. And all soldiers on the South Korean side must be at least 6' feet tall. It's a stand off.

There is no communication between troops, all troops on guard are on full alert, and it's not like messages are past on by one carrier to another, if one side wishes to speak with the other, a troop goes out and states that they are going to make an announcement on a mega phone. Then they proceed to make the announcement in public. The other side usually does not respond, however, they record everything. All actions are being recorded.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#308974 - 06/07/07 07:40 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Addressing some of the issues stated above all of which are true however, can also be seen in a different light with alternate motives. Such as the decision of General Choi to exile himself from the very country he served and protected. Noone exiles themselves unless they have a very good reason, one of which and the one that comes to mind is that if your in serious trouble and are saving the embarrassment of having your government exile you, so you save face and do it yourself.





Of course I agree. You are right. There are many ays to look at most things & often the looking is determined by the light. My research & talking to many, including Scholars, feel that in the least, Ambassador Choi may have been placed under house arrest, much like Kim Dae Jung was. At first, this dissadent Mr. Kim was kidnapped & almost killed, if not for the intervention of a 3rd country.

The problem was serious, as he left everything & everyone behind. It was Jhoon Rhee would later arranged for his wife to get out, but seeking a favor from the President of the Dominican Republic. Mrs. Choi then got out, 1st to Japan, then to the Americas. It was even later that his children were let out, with the exact mechanics of that, I have not yet learned.
So it was pretty serious. In fact, if he never went to NK, e would be hailed as a hero for his outspoken stance against a brutla military dictatorship, started by a military coup, lasting 18 years, till Park Chung Hee was assaniated by his own CIA Director in 1979.

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#308975 - 06/07/07 07:55 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:


1 - Let me start off by saying that it would be a beautiful reunion for the people of Korea if the two Governments unified. I for one pray this happens soon.


2- Second, the General made a goodwill trip to North Korea under the cover of peace, unification and the expansion of not Korean Taekwondo which was aleady being practiced in South Korea, but for ITF Chong Hon Tae Kwon-Do the only style of taekwondo he acknowledges to be true and pure taekwondo as he gives himself sole credit for creating it. This is why many have labeled him as traitor and why his action was considered a capital offense.

3- In a different perspective it can be seen as one entrepreneur tapping a new source of oppertunity. As North Korea is closed off to the world and is opposed with everything South Korean. Accepting this style of TKD brought by a man who self exiled himself from their neighboring enemy would not be difficult to accept. Nothing wrong with that as this is the way of capitalism. Every business organization and do not full yourselves folks, the ITF is a business organization just like the WTF and this is what organizations do. They are trying to grow and diversify.

4- Just like the current merger that is trying to happen right now. It's all about the $$$

5- To give an example of how impossible it is for these countries to merge. The only border that is peacefully occupied by both of these nations is guarded by North Koreans on one side and by American allies on the South Korean side and tensions are extremely high there. Thats right folks, the troops guarding the South Korean side are not even Korean, they are American. An example of how petty this competition is; no soldier on either side is under 5'10. And all soldiers on the South Korean side must be at least 6' feet tall. It's a stand off.

6- There is no communication between troops, all troops on guard are on full alert, and it's not like messages are past on by one carrier to another, if one side wishes to speak with the other, a troop goes out and states that they are going to make an announcement on a mega phone. Then they proceed to make the announcement in public. The other side usually does not respond, however, they record everything. All actions are being recorded.




1- Agree totally. It is sad that they are not united, with familes cut off totally, since 1945!

2- It was simply against the law in the ROK for any citizen to travel to the north, regardless of the reason. Most people could not care why he went. He went & thats the problem. Keep in mind, he went at great personal risk, as he was a major general in the oppossing army in a war that did not technally ever end, still to this day. In addition, he was re-united with many of his family members, which is a sad fact that few Koreans could have ever done. Now, sadly, many are no longer living.
In addition, he called what he did TKD, as most others did not. He started using the name from 1955, even ordering his troops to say TaeKwon, when saluting. If you know your history in this area, few were using the name TKD, outside of the Oh Do kwan, which he commanded & the Chung Do Kwan, where many of his top instructors came from. It was not till August of 1965, that the KTA changed the name to TaeKwon-Do, from Tae Soo Do, when now retired 2 star major general Choi returned from Malyasia as the Ambassador & was elected president of the KTA. In fact, it was him that made the change. It was then he, who formed the ITF in 1966, 7 years before the WTF. By this time, many of the instructors teaching worldwide were his. Of course not all were, but few of them & some of them still don't use the name TKD. So that is 1 of the reasons he did not think anyone else was doing TKD. (I don't adopt that position, as it is too hard to argue thatpoint with so many WTF members & Olympic status etc.)

3- Agree for the most part.

4- Agree as well, but I see &/or accept the connection to the Koreas more.

5- Yes I have experienced that

6- Yes I saw that in a documentary

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#308976 - 06/08/07 12:32 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I personally don't see any reason to unify the two. They both have similarities but differences as well ... and the same goes for Karate. I think the world is big enough to house all of them and if they never come together then that is fine by me.

There is too much politics and when that happens nobody wins. Politics even within ones own system with changes is a pain so by unifying the two I believe would be an even greater pain in the butt and if it ever happened I would hope my school would not change and if it did then I would be looking at leaving. There is no room in my training for politics.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#308977 - 06/08/07 08:50 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I personally don't see any reason to unify the two. They both have similarities but differences as well ... and the same goes for Karate. I think the world is big enough to house all of them and if they never come together then that is fine by me.

There is too much politics and when that happens nobody wins. Politics even within ones own system with changes is a pain so by unifying the two I believe would be an even greater pain in the butt and if it ever happened I would hope my school would not change and if it did then I would be looking at leaving. There is no room in my training for politics.





Yes, I see what you are saying & I agree. However, when it comes to politics there unfortunately is no way around it. In TKD, as with all other like ventures, there is always politics. Think office politics, etc.
However, in the context of any ITF & WTF merger, there is not only the individual internal politics with & within each respective group, & the politics between the groups, but there is the real politics (in the government sense) between the 2 Koreas, Nations still technically at war. This is the perspective that many non-Koreans or just TKD players do not see or appreciate the depth of its entaglement with TKD.
JMHO

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#308978 - 06/09/07 07:52 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Sounds to much like a conspiracy theory to me. A country is going to turn it's back on one of it's highest decorated generals.

If it is true that Master Choi came up with the name of Taekwondo, why would the Korean government use that name created by him.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#308979 - 06/09/07 11:27 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Sounds to much like a conspiracy theory to me. A country is going to turn it's back on one of it's highest decorated generals.

If it is true that Master Choi came up with the name of Taekwondo, why would the Korean government use that name created by him.




Yes it does & thats what makes it so interesting. I think many will be amazed when they read Dr. Kimm He Young's book on the history of the Korean MAs. He has said the SK Govt will not be happy with what he writes & what he writes is all backed up by evidence as any good scholar does.

As to why they used the name he picked? Well at 1st they did not. It wasn't till he & his students, those early pioneers started spreading it qaround the world, making it very popular. So when Mr. Choi was elected president of the KTA in 1965, he changed the name back to TKD, then started the ITF & the rest is as they say HISTORY.

As far as him falling out of favor with the SK Govt, remember he went to NK in 1979 & then introduced TKD there in 1980. At that time, it was a capital offense for any SK person to travel to NK.

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#308980 - 06/10/07 06:09 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
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ITFunity,

I'd like to ask you some questions regarding Master CHoi and history of TKD. I will begin by stating that I feel that I am skeptical regarding what many ITF affiliates would have everyone believe about Master Choi. I don't think that ITF TKD is any different than TSD with regards to philosophy, techniques, and the method in which they practice. I have read information both on Master Choi and the WTF. I say it like that because when it comes down to it, it is one man versus an organization of masters. Although the ITF is far bigger than one man, he is at the head, the buck seems to stop with him, unlike the WTF. What I mean is that if you ask a random TKD student to name a WTF master or one of the original kwan masters, they wouldn't know the answer. And personally I like the idea of a bunch of masters forming an organization with no super star celebrities to outshine anyone. Well truth be told, I don't like the idea of an organization, but if there had to be one, I prefer a select group of top masters and not just one primodonna. So that is how I view things so far, I'll begin with my questions.

When Master Choi founded the ITF he was not teaching TaeKwonDo as it is known today. He was teaching just another version of Korean Karate. When did he finally start teaching the Chong Hon style that is practiced today?

It seems that he came up with a name before he actually came up with an art. Koreans are famous for taking credit for something someone else created first. Often they change the name of things in order to reinvent it. As example you can look u many of their arts that are renamed. Shotokan, kendo, judo, Muay Thai. Tang Soo Do, yudo, kumdo. The name for MT has currently slipped my mind. But you see where I'm going with this.

Also there were already many Korean instructors teaching Korean Karate all over the world. There have been many Masters who claim that when they spoke to General Choi, that he asked them to call there art Taekwondo in order to spread the art and make it distinctive from Japanese karate. Although I cannot name many of the master from the magazines I have read, currently Jhoon Rhee who is considered the father of American TKD comes to mind. Would this not give the right for any Korean Master to use the name Taekwondo if they were teaching a martial art that was taught to them by a Korean master? This would eliminate anyone being known as the founder of Taekwondo as art.
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#308981 - 06/11/07 07:17 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
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Tek, apparently he even asked Mas Oyama about Kyokoshin becoming part of the TKD banner. Interesting when I'm sure many Koreans have mixed feelings about Oyama's status as a Korean (pledging loyalty to Japan).

Interesting how the ITF manifesto/constitution claims Gen. Choi founded TKD 'in perfection'. This would mean it 'sprang fully formed' and needs no changes or improvements.
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#308982 - 06/11/07 02:22 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFJJ Offline
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This is just more evidence that any merger is ill-conceived and likely ill-fated. We go back around the mulberry bush about the legitimacy of General Choi as the founder. The fact that the Gen. was the first person to forward the name Taekwon Do has never been, in my experience, legitimately disputed. It was still a committee decision. So they can all take credit for it if they like, but it was the Gen. who proposed it.

So what? I propose things in meetings at work all the time. Sometimes they are instituted and have national-level impacts. If I was working in a consensus based job, I could then go around saying that "it was all my idea" but the whole committee would have to agree, so it becomes shared. Hence why SK continued to use the name after everything else went on. Not to mentione the fact that so many "goodwill" demonstrations had gone on all over the world. SK would have had a lot of egg on their face if they just up and changed the name of their national sport because some general had fallen out of favour.


As for his exile, would it have been better if he had been executed? Would that lend more credibility to his claims to the art? Probably not, they would just erase his history as they have already tried to and the ITF wouldn't exist at all.

Although I think that some practitioners of ITF have gone too far to deify the Gen, I also feel that many of the WTF practitioners go too far to protest his legacy for there not to be credence in it. The old "Methinks they doth protest too much" adage.

WTF would never accept the recognition of the Gen in their syllabus, and the ITF wouldn't be willing to bury him. So the likelihood of a merger at anything other than the micro level is very slim.
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#308983 - 06/11/07 11:04 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
TeK9 Offline
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Quote:

I also feel that many of the WTF practitioners go too far to protest his legacy for there not to be credence in it. The old "Methinks they doth protest too much" adage.




I'm not so sure what to think, I'm not even sure if I should even care to think, if it's even worth thinking about. Books written by Masters affiliated with the WTF never make mention of the names of the original Kwan masters. They give credit to everyone, they do not single nor give sole credit to one person. They truly describe Taekwondo as the nations art. An art that has spread throughout the world and is now the most practiced martial art and is even an Olympic sport. A very unified art and a growing popular sport. An art sanctioned by the Korean government, and heads all other bodies around the world under it's umbrella.

Now on the other hand you have the ITF an organization that claims to study a Korean art but is not acknowledge by the Korean government. It was created by one man who claims to have created the name and the art. Because he is Korean he to claims it is a Korean art although his own government doesn't acknowledge it. To me this new art tends to resemble the old arts practiced by the original Kwans, although many of the techniques in this new art have been given different names. The exact techniques can be found in this new art and even the emphasis on kicks as it is practiced in the other Korean arts. Yet this art is a new art.

To me the ITF wants to share the credit that the WTF has attained. The WTF now goes even as far as calling TKD it's national sport, you would think this would be enough to appease the ITF org. which claims it's an art.

I wish I knew the terms of what exactly the ITF wants from the WTF.

When learning WTF TKD you are not expected to know the names of the original kwans, nor are you expected to know the names of the original kwan masters. You aren't even expected to know the name of the WTF's president. Those who compete may or may not know the names of the USTA affiliates as their money goes to them whenever they any fee's for tournaments.

Baiscally what is taught in these WTF dojangs is the origins of TKD, which most people by now other than Koreans know that WTF as it is practiced today is hardly 60 years old.
It is also widely accepted that it derived from Shotokan and other martial arts not of Korean culture.

This is the secret lie that the WTF maintains. That Taekwondo was once taekyon, subak and eventually TKD.
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#308984 - 06/12/07 08:44 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
trevek Offline
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I thinl they should just cut to the chase and have an NHB TKD death match to sort it all out (but then they'd probably spend the next million years debating the rules)
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#308985 - 06/12/07 09:06 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFJJ Offline
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Quote:

I wish I knew the terms of what exactly the ITF wants from the WTF.




Honestly, so do I. The two styles seem to be flourishing without a merger. The current rift on the ITF side notwithstanding.

Again, I think the "idealistic" view that TKD will unite Korea died with the General. Even if the WTF and the ITF NK merged, there would still be two ITF organizations left out of the loop.

As far as claims of who started this, created that, etc, I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion. There was a difference in opinion from the start as to whether or not their should be a great deal of influence from the kwans. But the decisions were made by committee, often in that environment you get consensus rather than true agreement. (My definition for this kind of decision making is that everyone walks away equally unhappy) Obviously, that difference in opinion was exagerrated once the split was official.

As for recognition (or lack thereof) from the SK Govt, that's merely a fact without follow-up, not an arguement for legitimacy one way or the other. Nationalists see themselves as patriots regardless of the approval of the sitting govt. There are more than enough examples of this to illustrate the point.

We are arguing two sides of the same point of view here, and while I don't necessarily agree with the finer points of your opinion, I do conceed the broader concept that a merger is more likely to be detrimental to one side or the other rather than beneficial.


Edited by ITFJJ (06/12/07 09:06 AM)
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#308986 - 06/13/07 12:48 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITFunity,When Master Choi founded the ITF he was not teaching TaeKwonDo as it is known today. He was teaching just another version of Korean Karate. When did he finally start teaching the Chong Hon style that is practiced today?




I wuld say that when his textbook, commonly referred to as teh bible of TKD was printed in 1972, that his signature for a newer more distinct TKD came about. Of course it still evolved & was further documented in his 1983 15 volume Encylpoedia of TKD. However, there were more changes in my judgement from the 1965 text to the 1972 text, than there was from 1972 text to the 1983 text.
So the best time would be 1972.

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#308987 - 06/13/07 12:53 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

ITFunity, Also there were already many Korean instructors teaching Korean Karate all over the world. There have been many Masters who claim that when they spoke to General Choi, that he asked them to call there art Taekwondo in order to spread the art and make it distinctive from Japanese karate. Although I cannot name many of the master from the magazines I have read, currently Jhoon Rhee who is considered the father of American TKD comes to mind. Would this not give the right for any Korean Master to use the name Taekwondo if they were teaching a martial art that was taught to them by a Korean master? This would eliminate anyone being known as the founder of Taekwondo as art.




Yes, you are right on both issues. However, the 1st, even though they may be entitled to call what they do as TKD, that does not mean that there was still not one founder of their system. It than goes back to what TKD is. So if it is ageneric or umbrella term like your 1st point implies, then yes, they are of course entitled. However, if one feels that Gen Choi founded TKD, then that of course is a different arguement. I thkn Choi started his own system. He of course called it TKD. However, many do not agree that what he does or foundedd is TKD, so we are back to WHAT is the definition of TKD. Until that is defined, everyone is right or wrong, to some extent. JMHO

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#308988 - 06/13/07 12:58 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

This is just more evidence that any merger is ill-conceived and likely ill-fated. We go back around the mulberry bush about the legitimacy of General Choi as the founder. The fact that the Gen. was the first person to forward the name Taekwon Do has never been, in my experience, legitimately disputed. It was still a committee decision. So they can all take credit for it if they like, but it was the Gen. who proposed it.

So what? I propose things in meetings at work all the time. Sometimes they are instituted and have national-level impacts. If I was working in a consensus based job, I could then go around saying that "it was all my idea" but the whole committee would have to agree, so it becomes shared. Hence why SK continued to use the name after everything else went on. Not to mentione the fact that so many "goodwill" demonstrations had gone on all over the world. SK would have had a lot of egg on their face if they just up and changed the name of their national sport because some general had fallen out of favour.




Yes, but remember, it was 1955 that the name was 1st used. However, it was only or mostly Gen Choi's students that were using it up to 1965, when the KTA adopted it, at his push & of course not till 1978, when the Kwans were disolved & numbered, with all taking the name of TKD.

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#308989 - 06/13/07 01:03 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

The WTF now goes even as far as calling TKD it's national sport, you would think this would be enough to appease the ITF org. which claims it's an art.





Yes, but remember it was Ambassador Choi who was very influential in getting it regarded as their National MA & sport, while he was still powerful & living in SK.

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#308990 - 06/13/07 01:06 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Even if the WTF and the ITF NK merged, there would still be two ITF organizations left out of the loop.






Yes, but don't you think that if the merger happens it will hurt the other 2 ITFs, maybe to a point that they become less or even insignificant?

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#308991 - 06/13/07 09:28 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
ITFJJ Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Even if the WTF and the ITF NK merged, there would still be two ITF organizations left out of the loop.



Yes, but don't you think that if the merger happens it will hurt the other 2 ITFs, maybe to a point that they become less or even insignificant?




Honestly no. I think the damage is done in so far as the divide between the ITFs. ITF NK going into merger with WTF would (in my opinion) only further marginalize it from within and without.

For example. The club that I was last associated with held a meeting of all the adult black belts to discuss which ITF we would fall under. The vote was cast and we followed Master Tran. About a year later our instructor's, who were former students of Master Lu, came back to us to ask us to re-think our original decision. I had originally made my decision based on some fairly solid criteria and nothing had changed If anything, the situation had worsened. Out of respect to them, I didn't vote against them, but could not vote for the change to the ITF NK org. So I abstained. I also know that I wasn't the only one who felt this strongly about it. I haven't kept in touch with them, but I would be surprized to find out that they have changed their minds.

I have since re-located and am training at a CTFI (Master Tran's org) club. While I still have the utmost respect for my former instructor's and Master Lu, I feel much more comfortable with this "political" situation.

Normally I wouldn't mix politics with training, but because my instructors invited me to be part of the decision-making process, I made what I thought to be a sound decision and have not heard any convincing arguments that would change my mind.

All that to say, I think there are a number of others in the ITF NK organization (such as those other students in my last club) who will be less happy about a merger than was originally thought, due to the predicted changes to the ITF syllabus that we have discussed earlier in this thread. They will likely then seek another organization to represent. At that point either Master Tran or Master Choi's organization will be their logical next step unless they wish to move on to an independant org. That said, this will only happen when the changes brought about by the merger are actually felt on the training floor in ITF clubs outside of Korea.

Coles notes: I don't believe that it will be the ITF Vienna or even the ITF Canada that will be marginalized. More likely I see ITF NK becoming less significant to practitioners world-wide because of what they will be forced to give up to merge with the WTF.
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#308992 - 06/19/07 05:10 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Interesting reply. I have to admit that I do tend to agree with some of your valid points. You have forced me to think & that is good & I thank you for that!

I just think that many underestimate the whole geo-political effect that can influence a potential merger. If it goes the way I see it, the ITF-NK will be strengthened by those that will join it & weakened, by those who will leave it for your stated reasons. I just think that there are more independents that may gravitate towards the ITF-NK, if a merger happens with the WTF. The media attention alone will be tremendous. Of course both the ITF C & V, will attract the purists, but they are, I am afraid a dwindling group (of which I proudly am part of).
Stay tuned I guess. Time will tell. However, I see on the ITF-V website, the majority of their members want Olympic access & they said they will pursue it as well.

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#308993 - 06/22/07 12:36 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
ITFunity Offline
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There was the 2nd coordination meeting earlier this week between the ITF-NK & WTF. If anyone hears of any news, please post. I will do the same.
Thanks

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#308994 - 10/30/07 11:12 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
ITFunity Offline
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The 3rd coordination meeting was held last week in Beijing China between the WTF & ITF-NK.Apparently they set up 2 additional sub-committees. One will handle sparring & the other patterns. In addition, they will work on a location & date for future meetings.......

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#308995 - 11/04/07 06:23 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
ITFunity Offline
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The most recent round of talks have been reported on the WTF website:

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/wtf.htm?realnum=183&page=1&keyword=&part=&mode=view

I have seen the WTF also report on the others as well.

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#308996 - 11/04/07 08:08 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
TeK9 Offline
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Wow, it looks like they are finally getting the ball rolling. So are they trying to come up with a new set of patterns and sparring rules for this new joint organization they are trying to create from the merger of these 2 bodies?

I've got to say, that if I actually cared about this, I would be impressed but. But hearing all the squable and debating that has gone on in this forum and over forums over the who's who of TKD and who owns the ights to this, who created that. This all just seems like a bunch of crap to me. Now I don't look down on anyone who find this interesting or anyone who supports this merger, after all it can bring some glimmer of hope to the people of North and South Korea to have find some sort of common ground, I'm all for it. But as far as having a regulating body over an art, well that just seems stupid to me. I find any organization even non profit ones always having to do with profit. Either they want cash or some sort of recognition for something. Why should the future of TKD be left in the hands of these 2 Giant bodies, why not leave it in the hands of the individual practitioners, those of us who do practice the art. not a bunch of guys in suits who probably no longer practice the art. I mean its like small school owner who all of a suddenwants to build a franchise, their school grows, he needs more space, more money comes rolling in, buys another school, soon the once excellent and wonderful teacher is now a business man, spending more time in the back room thinking of marketing schemes rather than spending time on the floor educating his students and sharing his passions as a result studying TKD.
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#308997 - 11/05/07 11:59 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TeK9]
ITFunity Offline
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Good points. However, this is just about seeing if they can come to some agreement on having both ITF & WTF compete in the Olympics. As you know, the WTF governs Olympic TKD. To date, the only way an ITF player can compete, is to get a WTF BB cert, follow the WTF rules/format, then compete & win a place on the team. This is just an attempt to make it more of a mix, allowing easier access for the ITF players.
I doubt we will really see any progress anytime soon.

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#308998 - 11/14/07 03:38 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
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Why can't they just have both styles, like wrestling has two Olympic styles?
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#308999 - 11/14/07 06:28 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
VDJ Offline
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Quote:

Why can't they just have both styles, like wrestling has two Olympic styles?




Because its really NOT two different styles (techniques are the same, just different terminolgy, and my guess is that the terminology is only different in English, not Korean). The difference is as ITFunity states, sparring rule differences. I personally believe that the ITF rules make sparring more exciting. Hands are allowed and attempts at scoring are more frequent, and no, hand techniques DO NOT dominate, they kick alot. But the more I watch the Olympic elite, the bigger the snooze fest (I can honestly say that I have never seen an exciting Steven Lopez match). Now its not to say that I haven't seen good ones, my own instructor is a very accomplished Olympic fighter just missing the '92 Olympic team due to injury. But I have found more action on the videos I have seen from the ITF world championships (and yes, some of that was ugly too).

VDJ

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#309000 - 11/29/07 12:47 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
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This may be going off topic somewhat, but it is related. It appears the USTF in the USA is allowing their members to affilaite to the ITF-V. The USTF will still exist, however, access to international certification & events will now be possible through the ITF-V.

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#309001 - 02/05/08 05:34 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Umbra_777]
von1 Offline
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Posts: 260
Hi all, I would love to see a merge, you would see from day 1 an emergence of mutual respect for ITF and WTF especially from ea. other. And I support allowing punches in sparing it would dispel a lot of myths that WTFs can"t punch(box) ext. Taekwondo needs to merge to dispel the ignorance and deception that is out there mostly with its own practitioners regaurding the differences between ITF-WTF

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#309002 - 02/05/08 06:49 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: von1]
TKD_X Offline
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I think it would be cool to get the best of both worlds. However, if they merge, i hope all of the forms and trditional aspects are preserved.
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#309003 - 02/05/08 07:57 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: TKD_X]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Quote:

I think it would be cool to get the best of both worlds. However, if they merge, i hope all of the forms and trditional aspects are preserved.




What do you mean the "best of both worlds"? They aren't really different with the exception of sine wave and the sparring rules. The techniques have different terminology, which is really only in english because in Korean they are the same.

VDJ

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#309004 - 02/06/08 12:25 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
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Quote:

Quote:

I think it would be cool to get the best of both worlds. However, if they merge, i hope all of the forms and trditional aspects are preserved.



What do you mean the "best of both worlds"? They aren't really different with the exception of sine wave and the sparring rules. The techniques have different terminology, which is really only in english because in Korean they are the same. VDJ




No Sir, I don't think they really are the same. Now don't get me wrong, there are so much that they have in common, as all MAs do. However, in their desire to be different from Japanese Karate, they both went in different directions. Its funny, because many of the old guard in the WTF, the KTA & KukKiwon think ITF is karate. Of course that was what the general also said about these groups centered in SK.
The ITF & how they move is so far from how the WTF moves. SW is a huge difference, but so are the chambers & previous positions. The WTF has really developed some unique kicking as well. There is of couse the rules, as the WTF does 1 category in the Olympics & has a seperate Wcs for patterns. The ITF has 5 categories in the WCs. Their uniforms are different, as well as teir patterns & many other minor aspects as well.
Compare the kukkiown text with the encylopedia.

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#309005 - 02/06/08 12:27 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
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Quote:

Hi all, I would love to see a merge, you would see from day 1 an emergence of mutual respect for ITF and WTF especially from ea. other.




No way! there is deep hatred that goes back decades from the old guard.

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#309006 - 02/06/08 12:43 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
EFRAIN Offline
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Registered: 08/14/05
Posts: 193
Loc: Paterson, NJ USA
Hey guys I've noticed that there is just 2 much beef with the ITF and WTF. I have a solution for this dilema...why not join the GTF? Global Taekwondo Federation...........This is farely a new federation been around for about 18 years and is still growing with over 25 countries on its resume...and yes it has politics but nothing compared to what u guys are dealing with.... Just thought i can butt in and help lol..... For curious peeps, GTF has the same forms as ITF and some new ones created by the late Grandmaster Park Jung Tae

OH AND THE GTF WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP IS GUNNA BE HELD IN CANADA IN JULY I THINK THIS YEAR...

Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIALIST


Edited by EFRAIN (02/06/08 12:47 AM)

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#309007 - 02/06/08 07:42 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think it would be cool to get the best of both worlds. However, if they merge, i hope all of the forms and trditional aspects are preserved.



What do you mean the "best of both worlds"? They aren't really different with the exception of sine wave and the sparring rules. The techniques have different terminology, which is really only in english because in Korean they are the same. VDJ




No Sir, I don't think they really are the same. Now don't get me wrong, there are so much that they have in common, as all MAs do. However, in their desire to be different from Japanese Karate, they both went in different directions. Its funny, because many of the old guard in the WTF, the KTA & KukKiwon think ITF is karate. Of course that was what the general also said about these groups centered in SK.
The ITF & how they move is so far from how the WTF moves. SW is a huge difference, but so are the chambers & previous positions. The WTF has really developed some unique kicking as well. There is of couse the rules, as the WTF does 1 category in the Olympics & has a seperate Wcs for patterns. The ITF has 5 categories in the WCs. Their uniforms are different, as well as teir patterns & many other minor aspects as well.
Compare the kukkiown text with the encylopedia.




You're missing my point.I am not talking about uniforms and the political differences, I am talking about technique.In my travels, about the only thing I have not seen in an ITF school is the "Double/Triple" kick. The WTF Narabum kick (because of its pronunciation some call Audobon) is the same as the ITF 360 turning kick.The WTF spin hook kick is the same as the ITF reverse turning kick. The ITF turning kick is the same as the WTF round kick, which I am certain would have the same name in korean. The sine wave is the single biggest difference between the two styles and is typically only seen when patterns/stepping basics and 1,2&3 steps are practiced. I find the ITF sparring more exciting as they seem to be willing to take more chances in their attacks and keep the match moving as well as the hands being allowed to the head. Both styles do a lot of bouncing in their matches with the ITF practioners typically preferring lead leg techniques (but not always).So again, what is the "Best of both Worlds"? If the WTF adopts allowing hands, then it has become ITF sparring for the most part and vice versa!

VDJ

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#309008 - 02/06/08 08:11 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
michaelboik Offline
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Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

Quote:

Hi all, I would love to see a merge, you would see from day 1 an emergence of mutual respect for ITF and WTF especially from ea. other.




No way! there is deep hatred that goes back decades from the old guard.




The problem with a merger is that the WTF controls competition and KKW controls TKD. The ITF controls both. I still say keep them separate and have a huge TKD festival where both are showcased. We are at a time where both can exist without interfering with the other. We are seeing the ITF returning to SK with positive results. I feel this is a more logical step then merging.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#309009 - 02/06/08 01:00 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: michaelboik]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
This is something like TKD International (TAGB) tried to do. They have an independent World Championships which is open to all TKD stylists.
_________________________
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#309010 - 02/06/08 01:34 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
VDJ Offline
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Th AAU in the states does as well. It recognizes ITF,WTF and TSD patterns at the tournaments. Sparring is both stop point and olympic.

VDJ

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#309011 - 02/06/08 01:46 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
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Quote:

In my travels, about the only thing I have not seen in an ITF school is the "Double/Triple" kick.
[quote/]

If you are talking about mutiple kicks, the ITF has these as well.

Quote:

The WTF Narabum kick (because of its pronunciation some call Audobon) is the same as the ITF 360 turning kick.[quote/]

The ITF has no 360 turning kick

Quote:

The WTF spin hook kick is the same as the ITF reverse turning kick.[quote/]

I don't think so. 2 differnt kicks, with 2 differnt motions & 2 different targets.

Quote:

ITF turning kick is the same as the WTF round kick, which I am certain would have the same name in korean.[quote/]

Yes & no. It has the same name, but is not done the same way. We have side turning & turning kicks, with different targets. We also do turning kick primarily with foot the ball of the foot. The instep & knees are secondary tools.

Quote:

The sine wave is the single biggest difference between the two styles and is typically only seen when patterns/stepping basics and 1,2&3 steps are practiced.[quote/]
I didn't think they had 2 step sparring & they do not do step sparring like the ITF does, nor do they do semi-free sparring, foot technique sparring or model sparring.

Quote:

I find the ITF sparring more exciting as they seem to be willing to take more chances in their attacks and keep the match moving as well as the hands being allowed to the head. Both styles do a lot of bouncing in their matches with the ITF practioners typically preferring lead leg techniques (but not always).[quote/]

These are big differences!

Quote:

So again, what is the "Best of both Worlds"? If the WTF adopts allowing ha very in ands, then it has become ITF sparring for the most part and vice versa! VDJ




Yes, but only in a very limited way.

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#309012 - 02/06/08 01:48 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: michaelboik]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

We are seeing the ITF returning to SK with positive results. I feel this is a more logical step then merging.




This is going to be huge in opening up eyes to what original TKD is, in the homeland of TKD.

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#309013 - 02/06/08 03:55 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
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Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my travels, about the only thing I have not seen in an ITF school is the "Double/Triple" kick.
[quote/]

If you are talking about mutiple kicks, the ITF has these as well.

No, it is not a multiple kick as you are probably thinking about it (same leg kicking numerous times). The first kick hits low around the thigh or buttocks and then is followed up very fast with the opposite leg to a scoring area, add one more with the first kicking leg to make it a triple.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The WTF Narabum kick (because of its pronunciation some call Audobon) is the same as the ITF 360 turning kick.[quote/]

The ITF has no 360 turning kick

Kicking leg is the lead leg,spin all the way around and kick with lead leg? Maybe 560 turning kick?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The WTF spin hook kick is the same as the ITF reverse turning kick.[quote/]

I don't think so. 2 differnt kicks, with 2 differnt motions & 2 different targets.

Please explain as everytime I go to an ITF school that is how it is explained to me. Maybe VDan can give some insight here for me as well.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ITF turning kick is the same as the WTF round kick, which I am certain would have the same name in korean.[quote/]

Yes & no. It has the same name, but is not done the same way. We have side turning & turning kicks, with different targets. We also do turning kick primarily with foot the ball of the foot. The instep & knees are secondary tools.

I am aware of these kicks and the striking tools and their targets. If I'm not mistaken the Side turning kick also has a different chambering position than the turning kick, which is definitely a round kick with the WTF/Kukki.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sine wave is the single biggest difference between the two styles and is typically only seen when patterns/stepping basics and 1,2&3 steps are practiced.[quote/]
I didn't think they had 2 step sparring & they do not do step sparring like the ITF does, nor do they do semi-free sparring, foot technique sparring or model sparring.

Depends on whose school you go into. But this still is getting away from techniques.

VDJ

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#309014 - 02/06/08 04:26 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
Dereck Offline
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Loc: Great White North
I've looked at this from time to time but have not really read everything. I however would like to add my simple comment regarding the possible union of ITF and WTF. I personally hope this never happens. They are two unities that are unique and should remain this way. I no more want to start learning the ITF format/techniques as the ITF doesn't want to learn the WTF format/techniques. The ITF has its encyclopedias that they hold in high regard and I highly doubt they want to give that up and I'm sure I'm not the only WTF person that doesn't want to have an encyclopedia. The ITF uses sinewave where as the WTF doesn't; and each like it this way.

Two separate entities that should remain as such.
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#309015 - 02/07/08 12:07 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Dereck]
EvenRats Offline
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Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Maybe ITF-NK would be the best candidate for merging. It creates the possibility that North and South Korea will finally unite.
That being said, merging any other sects of the ITF with WTF will be almost impossible. Theres too much resentment between the organizations. Or if resentment is not the case, then differences in cirriculum and founders. Those within their organizations are more comfortable with their styles. You can't expect a ITF practitioner to strap on a hogu and use only his legs in sparring, or a WTF practitioner to switch it up with both hands and legs. Of course however, if merging succeeds with terms that we can all agree on, I'll support it.

In my opinion, the best choice for all the major TKD organizations, be it ITF, WTF or GTF, is to fully recognize eachother. Not half-assed "meh" or "bleh" recognitions, but to actually discuss with eachother the future of TKD. Practitioners of different organizations could compete against eachother more frequently as well.

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#309016 - 02/07/08 12:21 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
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Well VDJ I see where you are coming from & won't argue against it further. It is just that then we all (TKD) is then just the same as Shotokan, except for the Tuls & SW movement.

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#309017 - 02/07/08 12:30 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Dereck]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

.......regarding the possible union of ITF and WTF. I personally hope this never happens....... Two separate entities that should remain as such.




Dereck:
Sir I think I agree with you. But think this has more to do with Korean politics, ie NK & SK then TKD.

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#309018 - 02/07/08 12:42 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: EvenRats]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Maybe ITF-NK would be the best candidate for merging. It creates the possibility that North and South Korea will finally unite.




Yes I agree 100% If it happens, it will be because of the pressure the 2 Korean govts, K & NK are putting on the groups

Quote:

That being said, merging any other sects of the ITF with WTF will be almost impossible. Theres too much resentment between the organizations. Or if resentment is not the case, then differences in cirriculum and founders.




No it won't. The ITF-C would welcome it, as I think it would remove a big obstacle, their stated problem with NK's involvement in TKD. That would allow them to come back into the fold. They are having problems now & are already looking to work better with ITF-NK.
The ITF-V is already alerting the IOC that they have been found by the Austrian Court to be the real ITF. They have also won 2 cases against the ITF-C in Canada.

Keep in mind, that if any ITF group merges with the WTF, it will most likely be the ITF-NK. That merger is currently centered around competition rules AND an administrative merge. The rules will be much easier to do & less hurtful to the ITF syllabus & unique style. That admin merge will be more complicated & may effect many other aspects other than tournament rules. If it were only tournament rules, all could then come under the umbrella, including the GTF & former ITF non SW schools & groups.

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#309019 - 02/07/08 08:43 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: EvenRats]
VDJ Offline
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Quote:

You can't expect a ITF practitioner to strap on a hogu and use only his legs in sparring, or a WTF practitioner to switch it up with both hands and legs.





I have seen these change overs numerous times w/o any problems.

VDJ

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#309020 - 02/07/08 10:38 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
EvenRats Offline
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Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Heh, It might just be me then (I can't even put the damn thing on).

Anyway, my point is, any merger is welcomed as long as they can come to terms that we can all agree and transition smoothly into. This might even be a chance to get ITF into the olympics.

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#309021 - 02/07/08 01:30 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

Quote:

.......regarding the possible union of ITF and WTF. I personally hope this never happens....... Two separate entities that should remain as such.




Dereck:
Sir I think I agree with you. But think this has more to do with Korean politics, ie NK & SK then TKD.




Agreed. We are all different, heck there are WTF school that are different from other WTF schools with mine a prime example. You would be hard pressed to find many schools that incorporate everything from stand up (kicking, punching, knees, elbows) to take down to submission and on occasions ground'n pound.

In a perfect world and how I personally see it; we are Taekwondo and that we learn different techniques is just our individuality and is only a small thing.
_________________________
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#309022 - 02/07/08 07:32 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: EvenRats]
ITFunity Offline
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Quote:

Anyway, my point is, any merger is welcomed as long as they can come to terms that we can all agree and transition smoothly into. This might even be a chance to get ITF into the olympics.




Be careful what you wish for. it may kill our Art.

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#309023 - 02/08/08 01:24 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
EvenRats Offline
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Registered: 12/26/07
Posts: 75
Quote:

Be careful what you wish for. it may kill our Art.




I certainly wouldn't want to see our beloved ITF be 'killed', but I wouldn't want it not to progress into the modern world as well. I see it as more of a evolution; you take the useful traits and pass it on to the next generation.
Its a move on or stay kind of situation.

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#309024 - 02/08/08 03:07 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: EvenRats]
ITFunity Offline
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But EvenRats, what do you want it to progress into? An Olympic sport? There is a cost to everything in life & I think I want to pay that price.

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#309025 - 02/09/08 09:52 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: EvenRats]
michaelboik Offline
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Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

Quote:

Be careful what you wish for. it may kill our Art.




I certainly wouldn't want to see our beloved ITF be 'killed', but I wouldn't want it not to progress into the modern world as well. I see it as more of a evolution; you take the useful traits and pass it on to the next generation.
Its a move on or stay kind of situation.




With the cirticism that WTF has been getting, do you think it will make the Olympics past 2012? The Olympic committee is looking for sports that bring crowds. It barely made the vote this last time from what I've heard. We need to look beyond the Olympics.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#309026 - 02/09/08 12:47 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: michaelboik]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671

With the cirticism that WTF has been getting, do you think it will make the Olympics past 2012? The Olympic committee is looking for sports that bring crowds. It barely made the vote this last time from what I've heard. We need to look beyond the Olympics.





I'm not sure it's even going to make it to the 2012 games ! Of course if it gets removed maybe that will help bring some credability back to the art.

VDJ

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#309027 - 02/09/08 01:34 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
badachagi Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Actually, TKD has already been ensured a place in the 2012 Olympics. The vote was held during 2005, where TKD was retained, while softball and baseball were voted out. Squash and Karate were finalists in the vote to replace baseball and softball, but neither managed to gain enough voted to become part of the official program.

While TKD has received some criticism, I seriously doubt that its place in the Olympics is in much danger. The main criticisms that it received was low TV ratings, and lack of consistent scoring and officiating. There were some allegations that the TKD competition at the Syndey games were biased to favor the Korean competitors. However, many of these criticisms were laid upon the WTF while Un Yong Kim was president. Since the time he was replaced, the WTF has taken on many reform measures to address the criticisms it has receieved. For example, the WTF has been testing out wireless electronic sensors in the chest and head protectors to register points, instead of relying on corner judges. The vote to retain TKD in 2012 seems to be a vote of confidence in those reform measures.

I think TV ratings are not likely to have a huge affect on a sport's inclusion in the Olympic program. After all, baseball is probably more popular that TKD, and likely had better ratings, but it was dropped. Consistent officiating is probably a more valid reason, since I doubt the IOC wants to be accused of hosting sports where fair play is not promoted.

Finally, I think TKD right now has too much "politcal" support to be dropped. Compared to a lot of other sports, TKD is one of those sports that levels the playing field for medals, in that TKD is the best chance many small and developing countries have at earning a medal (since it doesn't require as much facilities and resources as, say, water polo or equestrian). Vietnam earned its first Olympic medal ever in TKD, so I think examples like that are likely to earn TKD more support than criticism.

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#309028 - 02/09/08 01:49 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
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Quote:

Actually, TKD has already been ensured a place in the 2012 Olympics. The vote was held during 2005, where TKD was retained,




Yes, this was my understanding as well. It is beyond 2012 that I think is up in the air.

Quote:

Finally, I think TKD right now has too much "politcal" support to be dropped. Compared to a lot of other sports, TKD is one of those sports that levels the playing field for medals, in that TKD is the best chance many small and developing countries have at earning a medal (since it doesn't require as much facilities and resources as, say, water polo or equestrian). Vietnam earned its first Olympic medal ever in TKD, so I think examples like that are likely to earn TKD more support than criticism.




This is a good point that I never considered. Thanks

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#309029 - 02/09/08 02:07 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
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Quote:

Actually, TKD has already been ensured a place in the 2012 Olympics. The vote was held during 2005, where TKD was retained, Karate were finalists in the vote to replace baseball and softball, but neither managed to gain enough voted to become part of the official program.

While TKD has received some criticism, I seriously doubt that its place in the Olympics is in much danger. The main criticisms that it received was low TV ratings, and lack of consistent scoring and officiating. There were some allegations that the TKD competition at the Syndey games were biased to favor the Korean competitors. However, many of these criticisms were laid upon the WTF while Un Yong Kim was president. Since the time he was replaced, the WTF has taken on many reform measures to address the criticisms it has receieved. For example, the WTF has been testing out wireless electronic sensors in the chest and head protectors to register points, instead of relying on corner judges. The vote to retain TKD in 2012 seems to be a vote of confidence in those reform measures.




Yes there seems to be several fronts that the WTF has to defend against. The corruption & alleged biased judging are just 2. Low ratings which indicate the new sport never took hold is another. Karate & Chinese Wu Shu pitch for inclusion are others. The biggest one however may be the SK & NK political situation. NK has become one of the premier developers of outstanding TKD players. To not allow them to compete is politically incorrect from the standpoint of what many see the IOC as being representative of. Now you can make an arguement that NK players can compete & you would be right. However they would make the counter-arguement that they are being discriminated against, as they do a different type of TKD, which they say is the real TKD. This was an arguement that Ambassador Choi Hong Hi made unsuccessfully for years. The WTF & IOC basically ignored him. Since the country of NK has become involved & as they have moved high up on the worldwide talent scale, this has changed the mood of discussions. This is why we now have ITF & WTF merger talks, with input & some oversight by the IOC. Whether or not an agreement can be made, remains to be seen. I think probably not. The key will be WHAT will Prof. Chang Ung, an IOC Member & president of the largest ITF does with his vote on the continued inclusion of TKD, when it comes up again in a few years & how hard will he lobby his friends & form a coalition with Karate, Wu Shui & China to vote against as well.
This I think is the key! It would be a great feather in the cap of the IOC, if they can resolve a sports conflict, that would also have very positive geo-political effects on a tense standoff between the 2 Koreas. JMHO

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#309030 - 02/09/08 02:59 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Well thanks for the update on 2012. Smaller countries being able to compete in the olympics makes sense, but I am still not sure if that will be a strong enough reason for them to continue its inclusion. TV ratings will continue to suck as long as they keep putting the matches on at 1 and 2 AM. Finally, they still really need to do something to make these matches more interesting to watch. There is now where near the action it should have, and saying that they respect each other to much to make a fight is rediculous (sorry Von). All combative arts participants have a certain amount of respect for each other, they still go at it. aS FOR tkd sparring, I still find ITF matches much more exciting to watch, and they are not all about using their hands either.

VDJ

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#309031 - 02/09/08 06:25 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
badachagi Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Well thanks for the update on 2012. Smaller countries being able to compete in the olympics makes sense, but I am still not sure if that will be a strong enough reason for them to continue its inclusion. TV ratings will continue to suck as long as they keep putting the matches on at 1 and 2 AM. Finally, they still really need to do something to make these matches more interesting to watch. There is now where near the action it should have, and saying that they respect each other to much to make a fight is rediculous (sorry Von). All combative arts participants have a certain amount of respect for each other, they still go at it. aS FOR tkd sparring, I still find ITF matches much more exciting to watch, and they are not all about using their hands either.

VDJ




Whether a sport in included in the Olympics has less to do with how exciting it is to watch or even popularity, and more to do with money and political clout. Perfect example is baseball, which has got to be more popular and more watched that TKD, but it was voted out while TKD was retained. Another example is Karate, which has got to be at least as popular as TKD in terms of numbers of practitioners, and yet it couldn't even get a majority vote at the 2005 IOC session.

I'm not saying that people were paid off or that shady deals were made for TKD to stay. I'm just saying that whenever you have people, you're going to have politics, networking, and jockeying for powerful positions. It's just a fact of life. Un Yong Kim, former president of KKW, WTF, and KTA was at one time an IOC VP, and during his tenure TKD was voted into the official Olympic program. I think we're all capable of connecting the dots on this one, right?

So back to my previous point, yes the WTF has had critics, but I think that these critics will not be able to dissuade the large amount of political support (in terms of IOC member nations) that TKD has built and sustained.

If anything, I think it would have been easier to oust TKD back when Korea was taking all the medals, as Judo faced a similar problem in its early days with Japan threatening to take all the medals. But now that the quality of TKD fighters has risen across the world, it's no longer a foregone conclusion that Korea will take 1st at a major international tournament. Countries like China, Taiwan, Iran, and other have built strong TKD programs which have become a rich source for medals in the Olympics. More countries now have a viable shot at medaling at the Olympics thanks to TKD, which I think will further secure its position.

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#309032 - 02/10/08 12:35 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
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Quote:

I'm not saying that people were paid off or that shady deals were made for TKD to stay. I'm just saying that whenever you have people, you're going to have politics, networking, and jockeying for powerful positions. It's just a fact of life. Un Yong Kim, former president of KKW, WTF, and KTA was at one time an IOC VP, and during his tenure TKD was voted into the official Olympic program. I think we're all capable of connecting the dots on this one, right?




Badachagi:
Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?

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#309033 - 02/10/08 08:56 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
von1 Offline
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Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
No apology necessary I have agreed with others that Olympic competition is a boring spectacle. However I stand by the respect comment. It is the scoring that forces the respect. There is not enough available to the opponents to attack without being effectively countered and pointed so you get that lull where each opponent lays back until they can"t take it any more. Actually non Olympic full contact WTF competitions are more exciting than the Olympics with many knock outs.

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#309034 - 02/11/08 12:16 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

I'm not saying that people were paid off or that shady deals were made for TKD to stay. I'm just saying that whenever you have people, you're going to have politics, networking, and jockeying for powerful positions. It's just a fact of life. Un Yong Kim, former president of KKW, WTF, and KTA was at one time an IOC VP, and during his tenure TKD was voted into the official Olympic program. I think we're all capable of connecting the dots on this one, right?




Badachagi:
Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?




To accomplish what specifically?

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#309035 - 02/11/08 12:25 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
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Registered: 07/15/06
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Quote:

Badachagi: Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?




To accomplish what specifically?




To effect the continued inclusion of TKD as an Olympic sport. If he can, that of course may impact merger talks.

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#309036 - 02/11/08 12:32 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: von1]
badachagi Offline
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Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

No apology necessary I have agreed with others that Olympic competition is a boring spectacle. However I stand by the respect comment. It is the scoring that forces the respect. There is not enough available to the opponents to attack without being effectively countered and pointed so you get that lull where each opponent lays back until they can"t take it any more. Actually non Olympic full contact WTF competitions are more exciting than the Olympics with many knock outs.




I think one could make the argument that a lot of sports are "boring" to watch, if you don't fully understand the game. TKD can get boring sometimes if you expect to see nothing but fancy kicks, but if you understand the motions, checking, and ring management that is going on between flurries, you appreciate the overall match more. Someone might think grappling or wrestling is boring because all they do is "roll around on the mat", and not appreciate all the work that goes into getting yourself into a dominant position to apply the submission or pin. Another person might think baseball is boring because it takes two strikes and three balls before the batter actually makes a decent hit.

In general, the matches I've witnessed that have been the most "exciting" or "flashy" were the ones where one fighter was clearly outclassed. The superior fighter would take points at will, and would be confident enough to execute more spinning and jumping kicks. These would generally happen in the opening rounds of a tournament, or at smaller local tournaments.

Then again, one of the most exciting TKD matches I watched was between Mark Lopez and Jason Han as USA team trials duking it out for the featherweight spot. Two amazing athletes, so you can hardly say that was an instance of one outclassing the other.

Back in the 80's and 90's when the Koreans were more dominant, they used to go to town on some of their opponents. They attempted and scored with all kinds of kicks.

On the hand, you have guys like Steven Lopez, USA's 4x world champ and 2x Olympic gold medalist, an extremely smart and successful fighter. He has the most successful record in the history of the sport. But I think he is pretty boring to watch. He's not out to entertain you, he just wants to play the game smart and win.

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#309037 - 02/11/08 12:36 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

Badachagi: Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?




To accomplish what specifically?




To effect the continued inclusion of TKD as an Olympic sport. If he can, that of course may impact merger talks.




I should think that even an IOC VP who is head of the ITF NK would want TKD to remain in the games. Wouldn't it be easier to simply get the IOC to pressure/encourage the WTF to be more open to ITF competitors, rather than trying to get the IOC to accept a completely different federation to run the sport?

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#309038 - 02/11/08 09:12 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

[I should think that even an IOC VP who is head of the ITF NK would want TKD to remain in the games. Wouldn't it be easier to simply get the IOC to pressure/encourage the WTF to be more open to ITF competitors, rather than trying to get the IOC to accept a completely different federation to run the sport?




Yes of course it would & that is the present strategy he is employing. However I have doubt that the ITF&WTF will merge. I also think it is even more highly unlikely the IOC will accept the ITF as a different body to run the sport. So my question is, given this, as we seem to agree, do you think Prof Chang Ung will have the clout to move the next vote of the IOC to exclude TKD? If you think he has the clout, would he use it to exclude TKD, if the WTF doesn't merge or come to some acceptable solution to him, the ITF & NK?

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#309039 - 02/12/08 12:57 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

[I should think that even an IOC VP who is head of the ITF NK would want TKD to remain in the games. Wouldn't it be easier to simply get the IOC to pressure/encourage the WTF to be more open to ITF competitors, rather than trying to get the IOC to accept a completely different federation to run the sport?




Yes of course it would & that is the present strategy he is employing. However I have doubt that the ITF&WTF will merge. I also think it is even more highly unlikely the IOC will accept the ITF as a different body to run the sport. So my question is, given this, as we seem to agree, do you think Prof Chang Ung will have the clout to move the next vote of the IOC to exclude TKD? If you think he has the clout, would he use it to exclude TKD, if the WTF doesn't merge or come to some acceptable solution to him, the ITF & NK?




Purely my own speculation, but I think he'd have to have some tremendous ability to persuade people to get TKD excluded altogether, for reasons I've already stated. But besides that, it doesn't strike me as a very honorable thing to do. Essentially what you're saying is that he'd threaten to get TKD removed from the Olympics if the WTF doesn't give him his way. That seems rather petty to me. It's sorta like someone who is upset at his neighbor for throwing a party without inviting him, and so he calls the cops to make them shut the party down out of spite.

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#309040 - 02/12/08 01:29 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Purely my own speculation, but I think he'd have to have some tremendous ability to persuade people to get TKD excluded altogether, for reasons I've already stated. But besides that, it doesn't strike me as a very honorable thing to do. Essentially what you're saying is that he'd threaten to get TKD removed from the Olympics if the WTF doesn't give him his way. That seems rather petty to me. It's sorta like someone who is upset at his neighbor for throwing a party without inviting him, and so he calls the cops to make them shut the party down out of spite.




Yes & thanks. I think he is a popular IOC Member & I believe that the situation does exist where he can build a coalition of those who think the sport is boring, those that feel to many fighting sports are there already, those that wish to have their sports in, the karate groups, the WuShu groups & China.
In the end, I share your concern that it just may be a less than honorable thing to do. Although a good threat, that can be used to get someone's attention & providing needed leverage in negotions, I also am hesitant to say he would vote & lobby against TKD's continued inclusion, as it may actually hurt the SK & NK political situation. If that is a reality, I do not think NK will let him do that. JMHO

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#309041 - 02/20/08 02:56 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
ITFJJ Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Montréal
Regardless on my opinions regarding the "three ITFs" I cannot think that Chang Ung would fight to remove TKD from the Olympic Games. That would do nothing but hurt both Federations in the end.
Interestingly, in at least one Province (Quebec) there is a provincial governing body that does not differentiate between the two federations. If this was more wide spread then training teams could then draw on a larger talent pool and train the specific rules of competition. The unfortunate part of that is that it would have to be a "neutral" party that is not interested in the politics or power play that seems rife in the upper echelons of Martial Arts.
_________________________
ITF II Dan

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#309042 - 02/20/08 03:30 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Politics and Power Plays will exist as long as there are ANY kind of organizations period (and I don't mean just martial arts)!

VDJ

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#309043 - 02/20/08 03:31 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFJJ Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Montréal
I actually had a sentence in my post that said that, but thought it would be too cynical so I erased it.

I guess more accurately, it would probably have to be a governmental organization whose political interests and plays for power were outside the realm of Martial Arts.
_________________________
ITF II Dan

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#309044 - 03/10/08 03:06 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Looks like the ITF-NK & WTF had 2 more days of meetings in Beijing, China on March 1st & 2nd, 2008. They issued a joint statement:

www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com

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#309045 - 03/10/08 04:11 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY


I know I have always stated that the school I train at is WTF affiliated but I just remembered that we also have an ITF logo on the window next to the WTF logo. Is it possible that we are a member of both? When I went on the ITF site to read about the unification talks I saw ITF logo and I remembered we have one too.

Sounds like a silly question but as I have stated before my instructor is from Korea and even though he has been in the states a long time communicating with him on historical matters is difficult. Too much gets lost in his English interpretation of the facts. This is part of why I am limited on historical knowledge, the rest is my fault. Why would we have both logos when he is president of this states WTF chapter? I am sooooo confused! When I question him on WTF, ITF matters all I get is one word answer and a big smile. Politics is the answer, and I believe the smile is him wanting to better explain but he realizes his communication skills are not good enough.

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#309046 - 03/10/08 05:10 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

Looks like the ITF-NK & WTF had 2 more days of meetings in Beijing, China on March 1st & 2nd, 2008. They issued a joint statement:

www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com





What does it all really mean ? You will still have practioners on both sides who will hold animosity, you have 2 other ITF orgs still claiming to be the "Original" and what is it really uniting ? I know the quick answer is the Korea's, but TKD is a global thing with many different opinions and politics, more so than any other art I can think of. The funny thing I am seeing in this, and its not really a bad thing I guess, is the compromise they are seeking with each other. And lets be honest, when it came to TKD the General didn't really have the reputation for compromise, so where will all the compromise stand with the practioners who see it as the General's art and those who don't. I'm not trying to be a downer, I am just really curious as to what is trying to be accomplished.

VDJ

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#309047 - 03/10/08 08:59 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: von1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

ITFUNITY


I know I have always stated that the school I train at is WTF affiliated but I just remembered that we also have an ITF logo on the window next to the WTF logo. Is it possible that we are a member of both? When I went on the ITF site to read about the unification talks I saw ITF logo and I remembered we have one too.

Sounds like a silly question but as I have stated before my instructor is from Korea and even though he has been in the states a long time communicating with him on historical matters is difficult. Too much gets lost in his English interpretation of the facts. This is part of why I am limited on historical knowledge, the rest is my fault. Why would we have both logos when he is president of this states WTF chapter? I am sooooo confused! When I question him on WTF, ITF matters all I get is one word answer and a big smile. Politics is the answer, and I believe the smile is him wanting to better explain but he realizes his communication skills are not good enough.





ITF

Disregard this post I am an ediot. The logo I remember is simalir colors and round thats about it.

Red in the face

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#309048 - 03/10/08 10:04 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com




I know the quick answer is the Korea's, but TKD is a global thing with many different opinions and politics, more so than any other art I can think of. The funny thing I am seeing in this, and its not really a bad thing I guess, is the compromise they are seeking with each other. And lets be honest, when it came to TKD the General didn't really have the reputation for compromise, so where will all the compromise stand with the practioners who see it as the General's art and those who don't. I'm not trying to be a downer, I am just really curious as to what is trying to be accomplished. VDJ




Yes, but the agreement signed by the ITF & WTF in the early 1980s had loads of compromise, with more concessions from the ITF. However the WTF never executed or honored the signature by their Secty Genl. BTW, the intitial meeting was arranged by the SK Consulate General stationed abroad. So it shows the level of politics involved.

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#309049 - 03/10/08 10:07 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Sounds like a silly question but as I have stated before my instructor is from Korea and even though he has been in the states a long time communicating with him on historical matters is difficult. Too much gets lost in his English interpretation of the facts. This is part of why I am limited on historical knowledge, the rest is my fault. When I question him on WTF, ITF matters all I get is one word answer and a big smile. Politics is the answer, and I believe the smile is him wanting to better explain but he realizes his communication skills are not good enough.




No problem Von1, BTW, how long has he been out of Korea? And what is his background? How old?
these clues can help me offer some insight. You can PM me if you wish.

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#309050 - 03/11/08 11:31 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
Quote:

Quote:

Sounds like a silly question but as I have stated before my instructor is from Korea and even though he has been in the states a long time communicating with him on historical matters is difficult. Too much gets lost in his English interpretation of the facts. This is part of why I am limited on historical knowledge, the rest is my fault. When I question him on WTF, ITF matters all I get is one word answer and a big smile. Politics is the answer, and I believe the smile is him wanting to better explain but he realizes his communication skills are not good enough.




No problem Von1, BTW, how long has he been out of Korea? And what is his background? How old?
these clues can help me offer some insight. You can PM me if you wish.





His name is Grand Master Sang Sup Kil he is 64 yrs. old. and he has been in the states since 1980. His younger brother Master Young Sup Kil is here also. He is a fantastic instructor but not well at long involved verbal exchanges. He speaks highly of all TKD when he does speak, but like I said these conversations are far and few and not real involved. He can be googled. Pay no mind to the kils web site it is really corny, one of the worst I have seen and does not represent the organization well at all.

I realize that considering Grand Master Sang Sup Kil"s age and the time period he arrived in the states he was most likely sent here to promote sport TKD but he is much more than sport and trains students accordingly. I have never once herd a negative comment regarding any TKD organization from him, he seems to admire any participation in the art of TKD. He lives for TKD.


Edited by von1 (03/11/08 11:45 AM)

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#309051 - 03/11/08 04:12 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: von1]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
ITFUNITY


Should have thought of this earlier,

http://www.kilstkdonline.com/grandmaster1.html

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#309052 - 03/11/08 10:59 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: von1]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
kool!
thanks

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#309053 - 03/11/08 11:11 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
If you learn anything of interest regarding this please share.

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