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#308935 - 12/21/06 04:54 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Funny thing is I was once on a seminar with GM General Ambassador Founder Choi ......





Outstanding!

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#308936 - 12/21/06 04:57 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

sadly, I think it is only the General's death which has allowed this new development.




Yes, this has helped, but it really is the geo-politics of the 2 Koreas that is pushing this. I truly believe that the WTF does not want a merger. In fact, many of their leaders have hard feelings towards the ITF & its 1st president. However, they are now getting pressure from the Korean people & their government.

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#308937 - 12/21/06 05:52 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
ITFunity, glad you liked the new title

2 questions;

Am I right in thinking that one of the problems with earlier negotiations was General Choi's insistence that he be recognised as Founder of TKD?

Do you think the ITF would survive a merger?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#308938 - 12/22/06 12:23 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Am I right in thinking that one of the problems with earlier negotiations was General Choi's insistence that he be recognised as Founder of TKD?
Do you think the ITF would survive a merger?





I do not know what you mean by earlier negotiations. There were very early attempts to have the ITF work with the KTA, when Ambassador Choi was no longer the KTA president (post 1966). As the KTA, that Ambassador Choi was the 3rd president of (in 1965), grew in power & influence, there were attempts to merge patterns & the like. Once he exiled himself to Canada (1972), there were attempts to work things out. Some sources have told me that he did not wish to work things out.
In circa 1980/1 CK Choi & JC Kim headed the merger talks, but they did not go too far. By then the ITF was on its last legs. The WTF was too powerful & probably not willing to give much. GM JC Kim I believe was the leading force behind the creation of the ITF. He raised the funds, designed the patch. He was sorely missed when he left. Most of the oversea Korean instructors were leaving, especially after he went to NK in 1980. Some never forgave him for that. However, that was how he garnered the necessary power/support to save & re-grow the ITF.

In the late 80s & 90s, the WTF posture was yes, ITF members could join at anytime. This made any merger difficult. It was not until the Soviet Union collasped & when the military governments ended in the ROKorea, that the political climate changed. This was due to the Sunshine Policy of engagement put forth to Kim, Jong Il, by Kim, Dae Jung, the then president of the ROK, on June 15, 2000. (Ironically 2 years to the day, prior to the Ambassador passing.) It netted Mr. Kim the Nobel Peace Prize. BTW, this Sunshine was preceded by 21 years, by the outreach of Ambassador Choi, when he 1st visited NK. History will most likely salute him for this, correcting the slurs that he was subjected to.

In any event, moving into the present round of merger talks, you are probably right, to am extent. Remember, first & above all IMHO was/is the fact the some in the WTF had strong & hard feelings towards Ambassador Choi. However, these talks are being pushed/motivated by the 2 governments & the Korean people. The WTF was always the biggest block to a merger, as what was in it for them?

That being said, in 2003, one of the 1st points on the agenda was the founder issue & an apology to the ITF & its members. Now this was 2003, after he passed. His student(s) insisted on it. My sense is that this was part of the protocol all along, but I can not say for certain at this time.
So a very long answer is of course yes, but it was only 1 of many roadblocks that were/are in the way.

I honestly do not know if the ITF can survive the passing of our founder, never mind the merger. The merger has the potential to both help the ITF, ITF-NK at least, but also an equal or greater potential to hurt the ITF(s). A lot will naturally be determined by what face or shape the merger takes. My worry & concerns are that motivation by one side is politically guided & as such, the survival of my beloved Art will not be protected.

My gut tells me that the ITF-C may follow the merger, depending on what shape it takes. I do not think the ITF-V will have any part in it. So that may be the best alternative for those who wish to keep the standardization of a wonderful Art. If that is what pans out, it will truly be ironic that the Founder's Korean Art of SD will be kept alive by the ITF that has little or no visible Korean leadership. Which BTW goes along with what the Founder taught.

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#308939 - 12/22/06 05:42 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Thanks, very intereseting.

Quote:

That being said, in 2003, one of the 1st points on the agenda was the founder issue & an apology to the ITF & its members. Now this was 2003, after he passed. His student(s) insisted on it. My sense is that this was part of the protocol all along, but I can not say for certain at this time.




An apology for what? Going to NK?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#308940 - 12/22/06 09:52 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
So, you have;

People who are fully supportive of unification.
People who are wholly against unification.
People who haven't made their mind up.
People who don't care.

So what's new!

Doesn't sound like it's going to be sorted out any time soon does it.

_________________________
John L

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#308941 - 12/22/06 10:32 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Thanks, very intereseting.
Quote:

That being said, in 2003, one of the 1st points on the agenda was the founder issue & an apology to the ITF & its members. Now this was 2003, after he passed. His student(s) insisted on it. My sense is that this was part of the protocol all along, but I can not say for certain at this time.



An apology for what? Going to NK?





Your welcome.

No the apology was for the WTF writing out of history the contributions of Ambassador Choi, the ITF & its instructors & members. You see, some WTF & government literature speaks about TKD & it being around 2000 years ago. Then it skips to 1973 when the WTF was formed. It touches on the occupation period & post, along with the Korean War. Many times they speak about the Kwans. However, there is little mention of Ambassador Choi & Oh Do Kwan, along with its significant contributions. In fact, some reports list GM Nam Tae Hi as the only founder of Oh Do Kwan.

So at one time, they wanted the record corrected, which some day will be, as history usually sorts it self out after the passing of time & the manipulation that comes during it. They also want an apology for the well documented pressure the government & WTF put on the ITF instructors to leave their teacher.

I would think that many would have & still would want an apology for going to NK. However, it is just that introduction that has opened the doors of talks. This is what is monumental & of course what is driving the talks, as any talks between the 2 Koreas is better than the soldiers staring each other down at the DMZ. In fact, history is likely to record the spread of ITF to NK as a significant & early part of the unification process.

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#308942 - 12/22/06 10:40 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: JohnL]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Yes unification of the 2 Koreas, no time soon. That is not only probably aq good thing, but very necessary.

Merger of the ITF-NK & WTF. It will happen & sooner then the above stated unification. However, I also don't think it will happen anytime soon. The time will depend on how much the ITF-NK wants or gives up, to realize their aims which have a different motivation. The more I study it, the more I think the time is getting nearer. I hope I am wrong, as I want more to preserve my Art.

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#308943 - 12/26/06 09:28 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: trevek]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

Shang, I'm curious as to whether any merger will affect TAGB/ TKD International. When I was in TAGB they were not part of either ITF or WTF. Has this changed at all?




This is actually a good point trevek, one I've wondered about myself. I still have some friends from my old TAGB training days.

Basically the TAGB/TKD International are still a body unto themselves, i.e. not affiliated to ITF or WTF.

I wonder how this merger, if and when it happens, will effect "independent" TKD orginizations like the TAGB (that is bodies that teach TKD that are NOT associated to WTF/ITF). Will they still be able to teach TKD? Can they still call it TKD if the WTF and ITF get together and come up with a revised style of TKD?
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#308944 - 12/26/06 10:16 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: Prizewriter]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Good question. I don't know the answer. My guess would be very little will happen, as they are indepent. I guess a group like TKD INt. or TAGB can of course come under the Olympic fold easier, if that is what they wanted. Other than that I think there would be little difference. I don't think much will change on how individual groups or schools do things, other than whatever technical integration takes place. As always, independents can adopt some or all of it.

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