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#309035 - 02/11/08 12:25 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Badachagi: Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?




To accomplish what specifically?




To effect the continued inclusion of TKD as an Olympic sport. If he can, that of course may impact merger talks.

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#309036 - 02/11/08 12:32 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: von1]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

No apology necessary I have agreed with others that Olympic competition is a boring spectacle. However I stand by the respect comment. It is the scoring that forces the respect. There is not enough available to the opponents to attack without being effectively countered and pointed so you get that lull where each opponent lays back until they can"t take it any more. Actually non Olympic full contact WTF competitions are more exciting than the Olympics with many knock outs.




I think one could make the argument that a lot of sports are "boring" to watch, if you don't fully understand the game. TKD can get boring sometimes if you expect to see nothing but fancy kicks, but if you understand the motions, checking, and ring management that is going on between flurries, you appreciate the overall match more. Someone might think grappling or wrestling is boring because all they do is "roll around on the mat", and not appreciate all the work that goes into getting yourself into a dominant position to apply the submission or pin. Another person might think baseball is boring because it takes two strikes and three balls before the batter actually makes a decent hit.

In general, the matches I've witnessed that have been the most "exciting" or "flashy" were the ones where one fighter was clearly outclassed. The superior fighter would take points at will, and would be confident enough to execute more spinning and jumping kicks. These would generally happen in the opening rounds of a tournament, or at smaller local tournaments.

Then again, one of the most exciting TKD matches I watched was between Mark Lopez and Jason Han as USA team trials duking it out for the featherweight spot. Two amazing athletes, so you can hardly say that was an instance of one outclassing the other.

Back in the 80's and 90's when the Koreans were more dominant, they used to go to town on some of their opponents. They attempted and scored with all kinds of kicks.

On the hand, you have guys like Steven Lopez, USA's 4x world champ and 2x Olympic gold medalist, an extremely smart and successful fighter. He has the most successful record in the history of the sport. But I think he is pretty boring to watch. He's not out to entertain you, he just wants to play the game smart and win.

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#309037 - 02/11/08 12:36 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

Badachagi: Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?




To accomplish what specifically?




To effect the continued inclusion of TKD as an Olympic sport. If he can, that of course may impact merger talks.




I should think that even an IOC VP who is head of the ITF NK would want TKD to remain in the games. Wouldn't it be easier to simply get the IOC to pressure/encourage the WTF to be more open to ITF competitors, rather than trying to get the IOC to accept a completely different federation to run the sport?

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#309038 - 02/11/08 09:12 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

[I should think that even an IOC VP who is head of the ITF NK would want TKD to remain in the games. Wouldn't it be easier to simply get the IOC to pressure/encourage the WTF to be more open to ITF competitors, rather than trying to get the IOC to accept a completely different federation to run the sport?




Yes of course it would & that is the present strategy he is employing. However I have doubt that the ITF&WTF will merge. I also think it is even more highly unlikely the IOC will accept the ITF as a different body to run the sport. So my question is, given this, as we seem to agree, do you think Prof Chang Ung will have the clout to move the next vote of the IOC to exclude TKD? If you think he has the clout, would he use it to exclude TKD, if the WTF doesn't merge or come to some acceptable solution to him, the ITF & NK?

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#309039 - 02/12/08 12:57 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

[I should think that even an IOC VP who is head of the ITF NK would want TKD to remain in the games. Wouldn't it be easier to simply get the IOC to pressure/encourage the WTF to be more open to ITF competitors, rather than trying to get the IOC to accept a completely different federation to run the sport?




Yes of course it would & that is the present strategy he is employing. However I have doubt that the ITF&WTF will merge. I also think it is even more highly unlikely the IOC will accept the ITF as a different body to run the sport. So my question is, given this, as we seem to agree, do you think Prof Chang Ung will have the clout to move the next vote of the IOC to exclude TKD? If you think he has the clout, would he use it to exclude TKD, if the WTF doesn't merge or come to some acceptable solution to him, the ITF & NK?




Purely my own speculation, but I think he'd have to have some tremendous ability to persuade people to get TKD excluded altogether, for reasons I've already stated. But besides that, it doesn't strike me as a very honorable thing to do. Essentially what you're saying is that he'd threaten to get TKD removed from the Olympics if the WTF doesn't give him his way. That seems rather petty to me. It's sorta like someone who is upset at his neighbor for throwing a party without inviting him, and so he calls the cops to make them shut the party down out of spite.

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#309040 - 02/12/08 01:29 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Purely my own speculation, but I think he'd have to have some tremendous ability to persuade people to get TKD excluded altogether, for reasons I've already stated. But besides that, it doesn't strike me as a very honorable thing to do. Essentially what you're saying is that he'd threaten to get TKD removed from the Olympics if the WTF doesn't give him his way. That seems rather petty to me. It's sorta like someone who is upset at his neighbor for throwing a party without inviting him, and so he calls the cops to make them shut the party down out of spite.




Yes & thanks. I think he is a popular IOC Member & I believe that the situation does exist where he can build a coalition of those who think the sport is boring, those that feel to many fighting sports are there already, those that wish to have their sports in, the karate groups, the WuShu groups & China.
In the end, I share your concern that it just may be a less than honorable thing to do. Although a good threat, that can be used to get someone's attention & providing needed leverage in negotions, I also am hesitant to say he would vote & lobby against TKD's continued inclusion, as it may actually hurt the SK & NK political situation. If that is a reality, I do not think NK will let him do that. JMHO

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#309041 - 02/20/08 02:56 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
ITFJJ Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Montréal
Regardless on my opinions regarding the "three ITFs" I cannot think that Chang Ung would fight to remove TKD from the Olympic Games. That would do nothing but hurt both Federations in the end.
Interestingly, in at least one Province (Quebec) there is a provincial governing body that does not differentiate between the two federations. If this was more wide spread then training teams could then draw on a larger talent pool and train the specific rules of competition. The unfortunate part of that is that it would have to be a "neutral" party that is not interested in the politics or power play that seems rife in the upper echelons of Martial Arts.
_________________________
ITF II Dan

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#309042 - 02/20/08 03:30 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Politics and Power Plays will exist as long as there are ANY kind of organizations period (and I don't mean just martial arts)!

VDJ

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#309043 - 02/20/08 03:31 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
ITFJJ Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Montréal
I actually had a sentence in my post that said that, but thought it would be too cynical so I erased it.

I guess more accurately, it would probably have to be a governmental organization whose political interests and plays for power were outside the realm of Martial Arts.
_________________________
ITF II Dan

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#309044 - 03/10/08 03:06 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFJJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Looks like the ITF-NK & WTF had 2 more days of meetings in Beijing, China on March 1st & 2nd, 2008. They issued a joint statement:

www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com

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