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#309025 - 02/09/08 09:52 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: EvenRats]
michaelboik Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 60
Quote:

Quote:

Be careful what you wish for. it may kill our Art.




I certainly wouldn't want to see our beloved ITF be 'killed', but I wouldn't want it not to progress into the modern world as well. I see it as more of a evolution; you take the useful traits and pass it on to the next generation.
Its a move on or stay kind of situation.




With the cirticism that WTF has been getting, do you think it will make the Olympics past 2012? The Olympic committee is looking for sports that bring crowds. It barely made the vote this last time from what I've heard. We need to look beyond the Olympics.
_________________________
Mike www.drysdaletkd.com]

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#309026 - 02/09/08 12:47 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: michaelboik]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674

With the cirticism that WTF has been getting, do you think it will make the Olympics past 2012? The Olympic committee is looking for sports that bring crowds. It barely made the vote this last time from what I've heard. We need to look beyond the Olympics.





I'm not sure it's even going to make it to the 2012 games ! Of course if it gets removed maybe that will help bring some credability back to the art.

VDJ

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#309027 - 02/09/08 01:34 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Actually, TKD has already been ensured a place in the 2012 Olympics. The vote was held during 2005, where TKD was retained, while softball and baseball were voted out. Squash and Karate were finalists in the vote to replace baseball and softball, but neither managed to gain enough voted to become part of the official program.

While TKD has received some criticism, I seriously doubt that its place in the Olympics is in much danger. The main criticisms that it received was low TV ratings, and lack of consistent scoring and officiating. There were some allegations that the TKD competition at the Syndey games were biased to favor the Korean competitors. However, many of these criticisms were laid upon the WTF while Un Yong Kim was president. Since the time he was replaced, the WTF has taken on many reform measures to address the criticisms it has receieved. For example, the WTF has been testing out wireless electronic sensors in the chest and head protectors to register points, instead of relying on corner judges. The vote to retain TKD in 2012 seems to be a vote of confidence in those reform measures.

I think TV ratings are not likely to have a huge affect on a sport's inclusion in the Olympic program. After all, baseball is probably more popular that TKD, and likely had better ratings, but it was dropped. Consistent officiating is probably a more valid reason, since I doubt the IOC wants to be accused of hosting sports where fair play is not promoted.

Finally, I think TKD right now has too much "politcal" support to be dropped. Compared to a lot of other sports, TKD is one of those sports that levels the playing field for medals, in that TKD is the best chance many small and developing countries have at earning a medal (since it doesn't require as much facilities and resources as, say, water polo or equestrian). Vietnam earned its first Olympic medal ever in TKD, so I think examples like that are likely to earn TKD more support than criticism.

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#309028 - 02/09/08 01:49 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Actually, TKD has already been ensured a place in the 2012 Olympics. The vote was held during 2005, where TKD was retained,




Yes, this was my understanding as well. It is beyond 2012 that I think is up in the air.

Quote:

Finally, I think TKD right now has too much "politcal" support to be dropped. Compared to a lot of other sports, TKD is one of those sports that levels the playing field for medals, in that TKD is the best chance many small and developing countries have at earning a medal (since it doesn't require as much facilities and resources as, say, water polo or equestrian). Vietnam earned its first Olympic medal ever in TKD, so I think examples like that are likely to earn TKD more support than criticism.




This is a good point that I never considered. Thanks

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#309029 - 02/09/08 02:07 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Actually, TKD has already been ensured a place in the 2012 Olympics. The vote was held during 2005, where TKD was retained, Karate were finalists in the vote to replace baseball and softball, but neither managed to gain enough voted to become part of the official program.

While TKD has received some criticism, I seriously doubt that its place in the Olympics is in much danger. The main criticisms that it received was low TV ratings, and lack of consistent scoring and officiating. There were some allegations that the TKD competition at the Syndey games were biased to favor the Korean competitors. However, many of these criticisms were laid upon the WTF while Un Yong Kim was president. Since the time he was replaced, the WTF has taken on many reform measures to address the criticisms it has receieved. For example, the WTF has been testing out wireless electronic sensors in the chest and head protectors to register points, instead of relying on corner judges. The vote to retain TKD in 2012 seems to be a vote of confidence in those reform measures.




Yes there seems to be several fronts that the WTF has to defend against. The corruption & alleged biased judging are just 2. Low ratings which indicate the new sport never took hold is another. Karate & Chinese Wu Shu pitch for inclusion are others. The biggest one however may be the SK & NK political situation. NK has become one of the premier developers of outstanding TKD players. To not allow them to compete is politically incorrect from the standpoint of what many see the IOC as being representative of. Now you can make an arguement that NK players can compete & you would be right. However they would make the counter-arguement that they are being discriminated against, as they do a different type of TKD, which they say is the real TKD. This was an arguement that Ambassador Choi Hong Hi made unsuccessfully for years. The WTF & IOC basically ignored him. Since the country of NK has become involved & as they have moved high up on the worldwide talent scale, this has changed the mood of discussions. This is why we now have ITF & WTF merger talks, with input & some oversight by the IOC. Whether or not an agreement can be made, remains to be seen. I think probably not. The key will be WHAT will Prof. Chang Ung, an IOC Member & president of the largest ITF does with his vote on the continued inclusion of TKD, when it comes up again in a few years & how hard will he lobby his friends & form a coalition with Karate, Wu Shui & China to vote against as well.
This I think is the key! It would be a great feather in the cap of the IOC, if they can resolve a sports conflict, that would also have very positive geo-political effects on a tense standoff between the 2 Koreas. JMHO

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#309030 - 02/09/08 02:59 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Well thanks for the update on 2012. Smaller countries being able to compete in the olympics makes sense, but I am still not sure if that will be a strong enough reason for them to continue its inclusion. TV ratings will continue to suck as long as they keep putting the matches on at 1 and 2 AM. Finally, they still really need to do something to make these matches more interesting to watch. There is now where near the action it should have, and saying that they respect each other to much to make a fight is rediculous (sorry Von). All combative arts participants have a certain amount of respect for each other, they still go at it. aS FOR tkd sparring, I still find ITF matches much more exciting to watch, and they are not all about using their hands either.

VDJ

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#309031 - 02/09/08 06:25 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Well thanks for the update on 2012. Smaller countries being able to compete in the olympics makes sense, but I am still not sure if that will be a strong enough reason for them to continue its inclusion. TV ratings will continue to suck as long as they keep putting the matches on at 1 and 2 AM. Finally, they still really need to do something to make these matches more interesting to watch. There is now where near the action it should have, and saying that they respect each other to much to make a fight is rediculous (sorry Von). All combative arts participants have a certain amount of respect for each other, they still go at it. aS FOR tkd sparring, I still find ITF matches much more exciting to watch, and they are not all about using their hands either.

VDJ




Whether a sport in included in the Olympics has less to do with how exciting it is to watch or even popularity, and more to do with money and political clout. Perfect example is baseball, which has got to be more popular and more watched that TKD, but it was voted out while TKD was retained. Another example is Karate, which has got to be at least as popular as TKD in terms of numbers of practitioners, and yet it couldn't even get a majority vote at the 2005 IOC session.

I'm not saying that people were paid off or that shady deals were made for TKD to stay. I'm just saying that whenever you have people, you're going to have politics, networking, and jockeying for powerful positions. It's just a fact of life. Un Yong Kim, former president of KKW, WTF, and KTA was at one time an IOC VP, and during his tenure TKD was voted into the official Olympic program. I think we're all capable of connecting the dots on this one, right?

So back to my previous point, yes the WTF has had critics, but I think that these critics will not be able to dissuade the large amount of political support (in terms of IOC member nations) that TKD has built and sustained.

If anything, I think it would have been easier to oust TKD back when Korea was taking all the medals, as Judo faced a similar problem in its early days with Japan threatening to take all the medals. But now that the quality of TKD fighters has risen across the world, it's no longer a foregone conclusion that Korea will take 1st at a major international tournament. Countries like China, Taiwan, Iran, and other have built strong TKD programs which have become a rich source for medals in the Olympics. More countries now have a viable shot at medaling at the Olympics thanks to TKD, which I think will further secure its position.

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#309032 - 02/10/08 12:35 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: badachagi]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

I'm not saying that people were paid off or that shady deals were made for TKD to stay. I'm just saying that whenever you have people, you're going to have politics, networking, and jockeying for powerful positions. It's just a fact of life. Un Yong Kim, former president of KKW, WTF, and KTA was at one time an IOC VP, and during his tenure TKD was voted into the official Olympic program. I think we're all capable of connecting the dots on this one, right?




Badachagi:
Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?

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#309033 - 02/10/08 08:56 PM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: VDJ]
von1 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 260
No apology necessary I have agreed with others that Olympic competition is a boring spectacle. However I stand by the respect comment. It is the scoring that forces the respect. There is not enough available to the opponents to attack without being effectively countered and pointed so you get that lull where each opponent lays back until they can"t take it any more. Actually non Olympic full contact WTF competitions are more exciting than the Olympics with many knock outs.

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#309034 - 02/11/08 12:16 AM Re: Union of ITF and WTF [Re: ITFunity]
badachagi Offline
Member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 62
Quote:

Quote:

I'm not saying that people were paid off or that shady deals were made for TKD to stay. I'm just saying that whenever you have people, you're going to have politics, networking, and jockeying for powerful positions. It's just a fact of life. Un Yong Kim, former president of KKW, WTF, and KTA was at one time an IOC VP, and during his tenure TKD was voted into the official Olympic program. I think we're all capable of connecting the dots on this one, right?




Badachagi:
Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?




To accomplish what specifically?

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