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#308843 - 12/22/06 05:30 PM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: Victor Smith]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Its fairly obvious this is but one skill building set in a larger program. Systems like Dog Boxing incorporate a great deal of ground technique and this form seems to represent a grounding response building drill.





It's "OBVIOUS"???

Skill building set? WHAT skill?


Question: Has anyone ever seen anyone truly fight like that? I've seen a LOOOTTTT of fights skilled and otherwise and I've truly never seen anyone (except for the mentally challenged) look anything like this.

Maybe this form is just for the "SUPER-TALENTED-KARATE-KA WHO'S-PHILOSOPHY-IS-TO-NEVER-USE-THEIR-SUPER-SKILLS-EXCEPT IN-LIFE-THREATENING-CIRCUMSTANCES-AND,-WOULD-NEVER-CONSIDER BEING-INVOLVED-IN-'SPORT'-HENCE-YOU-NEVER-SEE-THEM-ACTUALLY-FIGHT", group?

Am I close there??


-John

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#308844 - 12/22/06 11:24 PM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: JKogas]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
John,

Many of the Chinese systems, and there are many of them, contain uncountable numbers of technique sets. I've never seen this set before and am far from qualified to know the entire range of Chinese arts teachings, but I can see the skill in performing those techniques.

Such sets would not be conisdered complete systems, but skill building sets.

While It wouldn't be my choice of skill to develop, I can see where someone might choose to address this. The technieus shown seem to be a string of finishing techniques to conclude other techniue strings.

I only see a range of potential and try and consider why it was created and try to consider how it may be used.

How we are willing to consider others practices is more than not shaded by our own experiences.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#308845 - 12/23/06 01:29 AM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
Quote:

Maybe this form is just for the "SUPER-TALENTED-KARATE-KA WHO'S-PHILOSOPHY-IS-TO-NEVER-USE-THEIR-SUPER-SKILLS-EXCEPT IN-LIFE-THREATENING-CIRCUMSTANCES-AND,-WOULD-NEVER-CONSIDER BEING-INVOLVED-IN-'SPORT'-HENCE-YOU-NEVER-SEE-THEM-ACTUALLY-FIGHT", group?




no because he's not doing karate, and is not a karate ka.

while i can see the possibility of sinlge leg type take downs and finishing techniques, my best guess is while this form may be based on a traditional set but this version is modern and very wushu.


Edited by ashe_higgs (12/23/06 01:30 AM)
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#308846 - 12/23/06 08:16 AM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ashe_higgs wrote:

Quote:


no because he's not doing karate, and is not a karate ka.





It was a joke.


My point with all of this is, that you NEVER see anyone training this way who actually fights.

The best ground fighters in the WORLD, wrestlers and Brazilian jiu-jitsu fighters, do not train this way. There's a reason for that.

-John

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#308847 - 12/23/06 09:05 AM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: JKogas]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:


My point with all of this is, that you NEVER see anyone training this way who actually fights



Maybe they aren't training to fight?

Quote:

The best ground fighters in the WORLD, wrestlers and Brazilian jiu-jitsu fighters, do not train this way. There's a reason for that.



That reason is that they are primarily concerned with competition and fighting. There are other things to the martial arts (as I understand them) than just fighting.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#308848 - 12/23/06 09:35 AM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: Fisherman]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


Maybe they aren't training to fight?





Yes, perhaps they are in martial arts because they enjoy ballet, dance, or perhaps, water polo. You never know do you?

If they’re in it for fighting however, THAT isn’t the way to go.


Quote:


That reason is that they are primarily concerned with competition and fighting.




I’d say they are more concerned with “performance” than they are competition or fighting.


Quote:

There are other things to the martial arts (as I understand them) than just fighting.





Like what? What can’t you achieve and achieve on an even higher level through alive arts than you can through practices such as these? Just curious as to your thoughts.


-John

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#308849 - 12/23/06 02:11 PM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
as i said, that form is very wushu (IMO). traiditonal CMA emphasize the use of strong body mechanics.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#308850 - 12/23/06 03:52 PM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Strong body mechanics for epileptic fits?

The "seizure" form...I like it. That's not bad. When someone approaches you, you can start spazzing out like this and they'll certainly think you're crazy. I mean, who attacks an insane person, right?!

Hey, it might work AFTER ALL, lol.


-John

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#308851 - 12/23/06 04:33 PM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: JKogas]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

Like what? What can’t you achieve and achieve on an even higher level through alive arts than you can through practices such as these? Just curious as to your thoughts.




What else is there besides fighting?
Plenty. (I come from a Chinese internal martial arts background, so I can't say that the same may be said for other non-chinese MA's.)From my experience I have found that there are also other physical and mental health oriented practices involved with my martial arts training. There are practices intended to benefit your physical health by making you stronger. There are meditative practices that help to give you focus and balance of emotions.
I think I understand what you mean when refering to 'alive arts'. You mean that the art trains on a real level when applying technique. 'Real' is refering to the method in which the techniques are trained. (Please correct me if I am wrong). I agree that training 'alive' will aquire good fighting skill, however, I think that such 'reality' based ma's are often missing the benefit of the heathy balanced mind.
Most of the folks that I have met that are in the MA's strickty to fight are a little on the edgy side, the "WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU LOOKING AT!" sort. They often have an excess of agressinveness due to an ovewhelming emphasis on hard fighting training. Good internal martial arts seek to balance this out and cultivate a stable mind as well as a healthy body and fighting skill.
Fighting is a semi lucrative profession if you choose it as your path, but it can also have a few side effects such as emotional instability. If all you do is train to fight that is going to be your mind set most of the time. If that is what you do, then go for it. Simply said, that isn't for me.
On the flip side. If you do forms and nothing but forms all the time and think that that is going to give you fighting skill you are out of your mind. The only way to learn how a MA functions within a fighting context is to train it with other people in that context. If you do not train how to fight with your MA then you will most likely not be able to fight with it. You are better off relying on instict rather than a false sense of security because you know some forms.
Personally I train ma's for the mental balance, peace of mind, focus, and the ability to defend myself. I do not train it to solely to fight.

Getting back to that video...
I would also say that the form does look more performance oriented. I do have an interest in the principle behind the techniques he is expressing in his form, however, being a more wushu oriented performance, my guess is that he doesn't train the fighting aspects of the form. I could be wrong though.

Thanks for the break from shoveling!!! We are still digging out from that blizzard!
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#308852 - 12/23/06 07:13 PM Re: Spiral boxing form video [Re: Fisherman]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


I think I understand what you mean when referring to 'alive arts'. You mean that the art trains on a real level when applying technique. 'Real' is referring to the method in which the techniques are trained. (Please correct me if I am wrong).




That’s close enough. Aliveness means that your partners are offering progressive resistance and, often have their own “objectives” per se. In other words, I’m trying to hit my partner and he’s trying to hit me. Basically that’s it, but of course that’s a simplistic view of things.


Quote:


I agree that training 'alive' will acquire good fighting skill, however, I think that such 'reality' based ma's are often missing the benefit of the healthy balanced mind.

Most of the folks that I have met that are in the MA's strictly to fight are a little on the edgy side, the "WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU LOOKING AT!" sort. They often have an excess of aggressiveness due to an overwhelming emphasis on hard fighting training. Good internal martial arts seek to balance this out and cultivate a stable mind as well as a healthy body and fighting skill.





My experience has been different. I should say that Aliveness has nothing to do with “fighting” and has more to do with simply developing the ability to “perform” one’s martial art. Some may read that as fighting. I don’t necessarily see it that way. I see that as training. Whether one fights or not is beside the point. I personally abhor violence as do all of the people that I train with. They’re training because it’s fun and they develop a demonstrable ability to “perform” (read, “defend themselves). Every last one of them have VERY healthy, balanced minds. They aren’t steroid freaks out for blood. That’s a common misconception. That certainly exists, but that exists IN ALL martial arts.


Quote:


Fighting is a semi lucrative profession if you choose it as your path, but it can also have a few side effects such as emotional instability.





Well again, we’re talking about fighting. No disrespect, but I tend to somewhat disagree with your views here. I personally think that competition is good for the soul. A-holes are everywhere, whether they’re fighting or not is irrelevant. In fact, fighting often serves the “a-hole” well, considering that a few good “ass-kicking’s” often serve to humble a person. That is one huge benefit of competition.

What is fighting but competition? What does the word competition mean? It’s two words, “com” meaning to come together (as in community), and “petition” meaning to strive. Competition thus means; “to strive together”. Which in the long run strengthens. It’s a very healthy thing. But again, lunatics are everywhere and in every form of martial art and in every endeavor. Not just fighting.

It’s interesting to note that many people involved in MMA are college educated. That alone says something about character.


Quote:


If all you do is train to fight that is going to be your mind set most of the time.





It often amazes me how these misperceptions and misconceptions spring about. I don’t fight and no one that trains WITH me trains to fight. I’m 41 years old and don’t plan on leaving my job and familial responsibilities to go train to fight for little pay. It’s not what I’m about, although you wouldn’t know that from listening to anyone here on this forum, lol.

I do this “stuff” because it’s fun and it’s good for the soul. It also gives me balance which is necessary in life. Through good, hard, and athletic training, I fill in the physical spot for the triune of body, mind and spirit.

But again these misconceptions are intriguing. I’ve try and do as much as possible to disperse with as many of them as possible regarding MMA and athletic training models.


Quote:


Personally I train ma's for the mental balance, peace of mind, focus, and the ability to defend myself. I do not train it to solely to fight.





I don’t train it solely to fight either. I train for mental balance, peace of mind and the ability to defend myself as well. Go figure, we are just alike. I just believe in aliveness in training all of that.


Quote:



Thanks for the break from shoveling!!! We are still digging out from that blizzard!





Take care out there, stay warm and ENJOY the snow. I’m having a 70 degree Christmas season. We have to buy INFLATABLE snowmen here dammit!


-John

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