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#308508 - 12/14/07 11:57 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Russell_Stutely]
jbrown2130 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/04/07
Posts: 7
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

In a fight ....





I think the arguement all comes back to that. You guys can train to fight like you like, but I'm going to tell you that I'm not going to be doing a lot of "setting up" or "numbing" or tweaking this or that for a response. If I can end a fight in ONE strike. I'm going to.

I agree with hitting it. hard.

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#308509 - 12/26/07 09:22 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: jbrown2130]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Just for a matter of fact, nothing taught in pressure points is designed for you to use them specifically and exclusively for self defense. They are "supplemental" techniques, that add to your ability to fight, and nothing precludes you from knocking somebody's lights out if you have the opening. That would be my choice too... but if I was having a problem with someone, I would rather set up the pressure points and use them than continue to fight endlessly with someone skilled.

Raking a block down someone's arm, or stepping on points in their foot might have a better chance than the "knockout" from one punch you're looking for... but become available if you've properly set them up and continue to fight. Hell, karate was designed to deliver force, and no one is suggesting other than that... pressure points are places on the body where specific strikes can disable and disorient people to the point of rendering them unconcious... so the use of pressure points is always an option.

If I had one opening in a fight, and could only deliver one punch, I'd like it to be on my choice of pressure points... because I know what they'll do and where the fight will go from there. What is missing from most kyusho studies these days, is the "structural side" of pressure point striking. Blocking against the extended elbow "against it's natural fold", and striking the side of the knees are also "kyusho" strikes... and many schools don't recognize the "karate side" of kyusho, or the use of the "points" to manipulate someone into jujutsu techniques. I have absolute confidence in what "point striking" can do... I've been doing it for years. It works and works well.

What doesn't work is trying to turn it into some kind of magic potion that you sprinkle during a fight like "pixie dust" to render your opponent helpless. It's a study of fighting technique just like blocking, punching, and kicking, and it simply uses the autonomic nervous system to do some of its work. The rest are "direct effect" points.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#308510 - 12/27/07 08:48 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I agree. The former wisdom in my school was that we had to be black belts before we could study kyusho. Now there is a rationale for changing that, and I do respect it. However, when one had to be at least Shodan before studying Kyusho, there was less liklihood of trying to work pressure point techniques in the absense, or instead of, good basic martial arts technique. Use good karate FIRST, then add the pressure point menu.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#308511 - 12/27/07 11:30 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Like everything that's "parsed out" and "spoon fed", there is no separation of "karate" and "pressure points". They are both one and the same art.

Kyusho-jitsu means "methods of striking the body"... it identifies targets, sequences of hits, defined targets and methods of striking particular points and generally how to hit any specific point for the "desired effect"... a la "dim mak"...

Take Dillman's book (any one) and point out any place that isn't a target for a karate strike. Take any kata and do the bunkai, and point out any points that are struck that aren't part of the "points" chart. Why... to define the "level of understanding" you need to learn pressure points.

If you couldn't hit a bull in the a$$ with a broom... studying the points on a bull that would create havoc wouldn't do you any good until you learned to hit with the broom. Same goes for karate... and kyusho-jitsu... if you have no skills to use, all the point knowledge in the world won't make you proficient if your techniques suck.

Luckily, I've had good teachers... teachers who didn't try to separate knowledge to have something to sell, but taught the complete art from the beginning to the end. When I was taught to block, I was taught the points that made those blocks effective... not "push point tw-6"... but "when striking with your block, hit this point and it will disable your attacker".

Now I know that's simplistic, but it's effective. The names of pressure points and their meridian names followed as more knowledge of the body was attained... but simply giving everybody the "map" of the meridians and a "chart" isn't teaching them anything. You have to have the correct techniques to get into the specifics of point striking.

My method is to divide the body into thirds... the two thirds that contain "limbs, are usually struck with more than two techniques.. i.e. a parry, grab and then a strike, etc. The center third of the body is usually struck with fist, elbow, knee or foot as the result of a block... a "clearing out" technique first, then a strike. Do your kata and see how that works for you...

Some of the basic things that used to be taught, such as "pressing down" on your opponent's technique hasn't been taught for a long time. "Snapping palm strikes" also seem to be a thing of the past... since they had specific uses in hitting points, but not in tournament striking. Next time you do kata, stay in contact with your uke throughout the kata... once you block, keep pressing down on their technique and ride their technique to the next technique of your kata. A whole world of pressure point knowledge will open up to you.

If training is all balled up, it's because people have tied training to money, and money to information... the more money you spend... you get the picture.

I see people train all the time that spend hundreds and thousands of dollars and don't know squat about either fighting, their art or actually have any developed fighting skills because they haven't been given the information... and "information" translates not just to locations, but to teaching the skills necessary to make the points work.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#308512 - 12/28/07 05:27 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
You have familiarity with more schools and ways of teaching than I have. I believe that most of my education has been integrated. For example, in the lower color ranks there waw a drill called "arm destructions". The point of the drill was to train striking painful stopping points on the arms as uke delivered straight in punches or hooks. What the student doesn't know at the time, is that they are hitting pressure points.

Similarly, it is hard to teach tuite without pressure points and obviously, color ranks need tuite, so they get the pressure point instructions without much ado about names of other information about the pressure points indicated for them.

I believe that total integration all the way through would make sense. I think that is what you are referring to. However, I have the reality of learning my advanced Kyusho via my school's Kyusho International affiliation. I have nothing to compare it to except the fighting arts crowd here. Based on that, I'd have to say that K.I. serves me well. You are probably one of the more skilled practitioners of Kyusho as you integrate it into your Aikido, that posts regularly in this forum.

I work hard to make my martial arts, which includes Kyusho, work for me as a fighting technique. From what I have seen, this is something that comes in the dan ranks. I don't have enough years in to be really good. Give me more time and I'll get there.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#308513 - 12/29/07 08:34 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Roseanne,
I think I was more trying to say that good karate instruction will include a lot of the information that is being taught separately as "pressure points". I certainly have no issues with your training or how you practice, and I'm the first one that understands that it takes time to learn things. Sometimes, you don't understand all you know.

The teaching of martial arts has two separate parts... the external, or rote mechanical movements, and the internal, or the instinctive use of that information. Part of that internalization is pressure point information, and developing the capacity to select the target on the way there.

You can't be like these guys... while you're doing your technique, but need to make it crisp, clean, and accurate... and it DOES take practice and information.

Aikido players always say "you don't block in Aikido"... you blend... and if they don't block with me, they'll get hit. Defensively, I hit whatver is extended to me, and have studied pressure point striking enough to make my blocks painful and debilitating. Lots of times, I blend, and then strike as I'm doing the technique, so nobody ever escapes completely unmolested... but I understand fighting arts with the mind of a fighter. I'm engaged with someone who is trying to hurt me, so I'm going to hurt them... (under control and within limits in training), but you have to have the "fighter's mind" in order to fight. "Hit what you can when you can" isn't a bad philosophy for fighting, even in Aikido.

I was also trained as a mechanical engineer in college, so my understanding of body mechanics and force vectors is pretty good. I did a lot of personal research into anatomy, and combined with my college studies, I have a good understanding of what happens to the body when it encounters force. Action + reaction, movement + anchoring... all those things make sense to me and I make use of them in my martial arts.

A lot of people deliver strikes to pressure points with no concept of what goes on internally to the joint or part of the body struck. They simply know to hit TW-16 and somehow believe that since their teacher told them to hit somebody there that they've done well. A pressure point strike needs more than that... it needs to be hit with the right "weapon", (fist configuration), hit at the right angle, have the force directed in the right direction once engaged. Simply "busting the point" isn't really kyusho jitsu.

I watched an episode of "Deadly Arts" on FIT TV the other night, and the French lady who is on the series was studying to perform her kata for one of the Goju masters. During that episode, she encountered another teacher that was pounding his hands and body against a tree. He was clearly delivering significant force to whatever he was hitting using his body. He wasn't "point striking", but managing his "force delivery"... which is very important in kyusho jitsu.

It's easy to get wrapped up in the "points" of kyusho, and completely neglect the "force delivery" side of the art. Good solid punches, kicks, and the judicious applications of knees, shoulders, elbows, etc. only multiply the effect.

Most "point" attacks (in old karate systems) were used to elicit a specific movement or reaction from someone, and were never intended to be the "end all" of the art itself. I won't even go into the chi applications of the arts, but lets just say that todays "end product" of karate training is much different from 30 or 40 years ago.

Personally, I admire your work in continuing training both in karate and pressure points, and hope that you reach the level where they are all "one". When that happens, the transformation is staggering to your attackers, and calming to you and your teachers.

Follow these rules...
1. When I can, I go to the dojo.
2. When I can't, I train where I am, and go to the dojo when I can.
3. Repeat rule one and two on a daily basis.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#308514 - 06/30/08 04:55 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Ed_Morris]
whitetigerschool Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 15
That depends. Which pressure point are you hitting? Not all pressure points are meant to be hit. Some are touch points. Others are rub points. Also, you have to take into acount how you set the point up. The harder you strike the set up points, the lighter you need to go on the final knock out point.

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