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#308498 - 12/05/07 09:48 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Ed_Morris]
Anonymous
Unregistered


“flawed logic. you assume that just because someone can hit very hard that they don't know where to hit?”
Actually, it isn't “flawed logic” the statement was “given any specific target and surface area” that (in and of itself) implies ANY target point. It returns to “desired effect”. You seem to be obsessed with causing great physical damage with any strike.(which I've often found to be an unnecessary effort)

“take two people the same size and age who have equally studied Kyushu the same number of years - one strikes with mediocre impact, the other strikes with twice the force.”
Again, you assume, that ALL Kyushu points are struck with force (presumably to cause trauma)
And, if both of these individuals have been studying this, why would there even be a confrontation? (the whole scenario seems improbable)

“which strike does more damage?”
again, “damage” may not be my desired effect

“last time I checked, 'force' in this case is an exact match to the representation of 'force' in physics.
by the way, I hate to break this to you, but if everything else is equal, bigger and stronger actually DO have a significant edge.”
If everything else is equal, the confrontation most likely wouldn't occur...and I've never seen an “everything is equal” confrontation.
By your logic, there's no point in even studying any martial art ,just work out at the gym more and muscle your way through life. Of course when you get older, you'll get your a$$ kicked a lot more, but that fits your bigger/stronger is better view.
I work extensively with L.E. That attitude doesn't fly at all ( And the courts don't see it that way either) And again, damage is not always the desired effect/outcome.

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#308499 - 12/05/07 10:17 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you are changing your premise in order to stay in the argument. I never said stronger and larger is better. I said if you have two people of equal age and training years, the stronger one will tip the balance to his/her favor as far as odds.


someone earlier wrote:
"Simple test... hit a point.. then hit it harder and see if it hurts less or more!"

then you wrote in response: "THAT, is the funniest (I.E. "un"accurate) thing I've read so far.... "


so, what is inaccurate? if you hit a point harder why wouldn't it hurt more?


or if you aren't going for damage, if you press a point with more pressure, why wouldn't it hurt more?



but if you aren't trying for pain, damage or KO...then what effect are you trying for? to scare your opponent away or buy him a beer?


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#308500 - 12/06/07 03:28 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Ed_Morris]
Anonymous
Unregistered


someone earlier wrote:
"Simple test... hit a point.. then hit it harder and see if it hurts less or more!"

then you wrote in response: "THAT, is the funniest (I.E. "un"accurate) thing I've read so far.... "

“so, what is inaccurate? if you hit a point harder why wouldn't it hurt more?
or if you aren't going for damage, if you press a point with more pressure, why wouldn't it hurt more?”
What is “inaccurate” is the the very broad statement that striking “any” point harder is more productive (or even necessary). For some points, it may be an accurate statement, but for many, an unnecessary exertion. And wasted motion and energy is pointless (if not detrimental,... you wear out faster).
My main point being, not all points are utilized to elicit a “pain/damage” reaction.

“but if you aren't trying for pain, damage or KO...then what effect are you trying for? “
Immobilization,and/or “activation” (pain is not a necessary factor, I.E. Suspect is on drugs, doesn't feel pain) as long as you have them immobilized, they are not a threat). Pummeling someone is pointless if no pain is being felt. Even something simple, like placement of a hand on a shoulder (prior to a knee spear to the thigh) need not be done with any force, yet is necessary to make the thigh strike most effective (in that it “activates the muscles/nerves in the thigh prior to the strike).

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#308501 - 12/06/07 10:36 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: Ed_Morris]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I'm with Shujika. KO is not the whole picture. Hitting hard is not the whole picture. A lot of take-downs and tuite work better with pressure points. Many practitioners learn them with pressure points without any detail given them as to the name of the point. They are shown something like, "press here" or "do it this way it works better".

Hitting harder does hurt worse. When I practice, I hit people lightly because I like them. They are my practice partners and friends. When I need to defend myself for real, I will hit harder. Hitting lightly also makes me practice the proper technique of penetrating power and getting it right very efficiently. If you hit hard enough, I suppose any point will work, even if your targeting is wrong and your striking technique is terrible.

Kyusho players DO practice to learn to generate power. Why would anyone assume we don't? "they"... Who is they? avoid the much more difficult training of learning efficient power generation." That is quite an allegation. Fortunately, it doesn't apply to anyone studying Kyusho that I know.

All things being equal, (whatever that means since all things are never equal), bigger and stronger has an advantage. That is why I am the under-dog and collect techniques that work more efficiently for us older, weaker, smaller, more female types. Yup I'd trade anything to be younger, stronger, bigger and a male type. Significant edge is an under-statement.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#308502 - 12/07/07 06:28 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I think everyone would agree that different points/areas have various effects. thats not the argument....


Is this true or false:
if you take one point A and hit or press it lightly - it will not be the same effect as hitting/pressing that same point very hard.

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#308503 - 12/07/07 07:40 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi

Quote:


What is “inaccurate” is the very broad statement that striking “any” point harder is more productive (or even necessary). For some points, it may be an accurate statement, but for many, an unnecessary exertion. And wasted motion and energy is pointless (if not detrimental, you wear out faster).





I tend to disagree. In self-defence situation if something has to be struck then it would be hard and fast.
Depending on where the strike is aimed would determine with which part of the anatomy the part would be struck with.
Quote:


My main point being, not all points are utilized to elicit a “pain/damage” reaction.




In a self defence situation
The only other ones I can think of would be to strike to cause numbness.
Quote:


“But if you aren't trying for pain, damage or KO...then what effect are you trying for?
Immobilization,and/or “activation” (pain is not a necessary factor, I.E. Suspect is on drugs, doesn't feel pain) as long as you have them immobilized, they are not a threat)




Could I ask how is that going to happen?
Self defence situation.
Joint locks? Chokes? If they cant feel pain and you put them in a lock they will struggle? Can I ask what do you understand as activation?
Quote:


Pummelling someone is pointless if no pain is being felt. Even something simple, like placement of a hand on a shoulder (prior to a knee spear to the thigh) need not be done with any force, yet is necessary to make the thigh strike most effective (in that it “activates the muscles/nerves in the thigh prior to the strike).




I can’t see that.
Again in a self-defence situation. Pummelling works regardless if they feel pain or not. It would depend where a person is pummelled. Attack is the best form of defence

If I am attacked and I can get my hand any where near the persons shoulder I wouldn’t be putting it there and it wouldn’t be the knee I would be going for at first. Unless that was the only choice.
I think to do such things requires good body conditioning.
Also body strikes wouldn’t work to well against some one with body conditioning.
The weak areas if the situation is justified are the face and the neck.

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#308504 - 12/08/07 08:12 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: jude33]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I like pummeling. Pummeling in self defense is a good thing. Pummel the head. Get there as fast as you can and pummel it until the aggressor falls down.

If someone is going to attack me so that it is a self defense situation, they are picking on me because they think I am easy prey. I will not act like prey. Whatever my opportunity is, I will find and exploit it. I will hit the right points and hit them HARD, CORRECTLY and AS MUCH AS I CAN, until I believe that I can get away safely.

This will not be the time to "set things up" nicely like a demo KO. I have been selected for aggressive treatment because I am supposed to be an easy victim. Any strike I land has to be the one that will save my life. If a body strike or arm strike comes first, OK, I have a set up. I'm betting my life on hitting hard.

In the process, my first strike may be light. I have been taught that mixing Yin and Yang is a good thing. A light strike sets the body up to receive the stronger strike. That is nice. That will encourage me at the time to know that even the closed in cramped strike might have utility.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#308505 - 12/08/07 09:20 AM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




You seem to be obsessed with causing great physical damage with any strike.(which I've often found to be an unnecessary effort)







Totaly dissagree.
For use in self defence situations.
The unneccesary effort part might good be for marketing to a person who might be deemed unfit and unconditioned therefore cant keep the strikes going. Perhaps this is the marketing strategy of some people. Martial arts training is meant to improve the unfit and unconditioned. This isnt a critisism its a fact.


The striking points for self defence applications of kyushu I have looked at on charts seem to be the same target areas taught( please note I am saying trad karate) if trad karate was used in self defence.

If certain areas were struck by someone who couldnt/didint strike hard what exactly do you think the attacker is going to do? He will fight harder. Do you honestly think that will set some one up for the next strike?

Perhaps you could give some instances?
I presume your not talking about any form of distractions that wouldnt make contact anyhow?

With all due respect sir I think your dreaming.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (12/08/07 09:38 AM)

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#308506 - 12/12/07 09:59 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina


Right on, Roseanne... I was hitting "Bob" the other day, and (of course) very accurately... but just knocking the bejesus out of it. One of the "kempo" teachers came over and said "If you hit somebody like that, you'll kill them!"...

I walked away singing... "The object of my affection, is in the house of correction... he beat me 'til I died"...

Don't just "hit" pressure points... bury them. If you're doing dim mak techniques, the angles, timing, etc. are all important. If you're just using them as self defense... knock the skin off'em... or "knock'em out the other side".

Dim mak is a skill application... atemi is a force application... so knock their lights out... don't be spoiled by success...

As for "pummeling", Roseanne, I agree. Pound'em til they stop moving, and then knock them out of the way...

Like Democrats voting, do it early and often... Hit at your first opportunity, stop when somebody else grabs your hands...and utters "soothing words"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#308507 - 12/14/07 11:23 PM Re: how hard do you hit a pp
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

why is that inaccurate? it's simple physics. given any specific target and surface area, if there is more force transmitted, there will be more damage.





Can't argue with that, logically anyway.

Quote:

“Kyusho” translates as “vital point”. There is no implication as to how, or why (this is for the individual to determine) I illustrate to my students all the time “kyusho” points which cause no pain in and of themselves, but without contact with, the technique would fail utterly. “Knock-outs” are a very small part of Kyusho techniques. Pain or unconciesness (in and of itself) is not always the desired reaction.




Vital points, press or push points, and anywhere on the body hurts MORe when you hit it harder. There's no way around that whatsoever.

Dude, learn to use the quote function!!

Click the quote icon in the instant ubb code box. Then copy and paste what you want quoted.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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